Torah Torah Torah

[JohnD]

Most Christians are familiar with the teaching that we are not under law but under grace.

Galatians 3:24-25 (KJV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

But!

That does not mean we are antinomianists (lawless).

1 Corinthians 9:19-21 (NASB95)
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Christians are not under the law of Moses but are under the law of God: the law of Christ. This shows up in scripture far more often than we realize. Remembering:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Proverbs 25:2 (NASB95)
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Deuteronomy 29:29 (NASB95)
29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.

Isaiah 28:9-14 (KJV)
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meaning there are clues, prophetic hints that may not yet apply under the old covenant that will apply in the new (none of which draw the stark contrast between laws as in):

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 N O T  according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put MY LAW in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now notices all the subtle references to the law other than the law of Moses:

Exodus 16:4 (KJV)
4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

2 Chronicles 6:16 (KJV)
16 Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me.

Psalm 78:1 (KJV)
1 Maschil of Asaph. Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.

Psalm 89:30 (KJV)
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

Proverbs 3:1 (KJV)
1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

Proverbs 4:2 (KJV)
2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.

Proverbs 7:2 (KJV)
2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Isaiah 51:7 (KJV)
7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Jeremiah 6:19 (KJV)
19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Jeremiah 9:13 (KJV)
13 And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein;

Jeremiah 16:11 (KJV)
11 Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law;

Jeremiah 26:4 (KJV)
4 And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; If ye will not hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you,

Jeremiah 31:33 (KJV)
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jeremiah 44:10 (KJV)
10 They are not humbled even unto this day, neither have they feared, nor walked in my law, nor in my statutes, that I set before you and before your fathers.

Ezekiel 22:26 (KJV)
26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Hosea 8:1 (KJV)
1 Set the trumpet to thy mouth. He shall come as an eagle against the house of the LORD, because they have transgressed my covenant, and trespassed against my law.

Hosea 8:12 (KJV)
12 I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.

Joshua 24:26 (KJV)
26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.

Nehemiah 8:8 (KJV)
8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Nehemiah 8:18 (KJV)
18 Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.

Nehemiah 10:28 (KJV)
28 And the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the porters, the singers, the Nethinims, and all they that had separated themselves from the people of the lands unto the law of God, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, every one having knowledge, and having understanding;

Romans 7:22 (KJV)
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Romans 7:25 (KJV)
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:7 (KJV)
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1 Corinthians 9:21 (NASB95)
21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Galatians 6:2 (KJV)
2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Nehemiah 10:29 (KJV)
29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God’s law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God's Law which was given through Moses... does not mean just the Law of Moses as Jeremiah 31:32 and 1 Corinthians 9:20-21 make clear. In fact at many points the line between the two is quite blurred and this is no problem for God because in the righteousness of Christ imputed to our account... our faith in him fulfills the Law of Moses by his righteousness and by the overall purpose of the Law of Moses which was to drive us to faith in Christ.

Think of it as the Law of Moses is like the law of gravity while the Law of Christ is like the law of aerodynamics.

Edited February 4, 2019 by JohnD

[JohnD]

I won't call it an embroiled debate elsewhere (yet), but I did get various responses of opinions, to which I responded:

 

Well, I see your answers indicate what you want to be true...

Jesus said "my words will not pass away..."

 

The responder misquoted this text supplying the word "Law" for the word "word" though there are places where Jesus said not one jot or tittle will pass away in the Law (of Moses) till all be accomplished...

Torah Moshe (Moses) is still in effect... to condemn those who reject Torah Moshiakh (Messiah / Christ).

So, not one yod or one tittle has in fact passed from Torah Moshe... it's still doing it's job guiding us to Torah Moshiakh.

Galatians 3:24-25 (KJV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

John 5:43 (KJV)
43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

John 5:45 (KJV)
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

 

Romans 8:2 (NIV)
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

 

Your accuser is the Law of Moses (the law of sin and death) versus the Law of Grace and Mercy the Law of the Spirit the Law of Christ the Law of God.

[JohnD]

A few more replied so I wrote this:

 

Observe the contrast between the two in the Tanakh:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NASB95)
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

And Reb Shaul:

Galatians 3:24-25 (NASB95)
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

1 Corinthians 9:19-21 (NASB95)
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

What do these mean to you?

[JohnD]

I was told they'd get back to me in a few days...

 

Okay. In the meantime:

Two Laws (the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ / Law of God):

1 Corinthians 9:19-21 (NIV)
19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

It can be shown categorically in texts like:

Micah 6:8 (NIV)
8 He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

The Law of Moses

He has showed you, O man

What is good

And what does the LORD require of you

To act justly

The Law of God

To love mercy  

The Law of Christ

To walk humbly with your God

 

 

[Qnts2]

I'm not sure who you are debating and don't want to take away from that as I have been in many such debates but want to ask you a few questions.

 

Where in scripture were Gentiles who did not live in the land of Israel ever under the law of Moses?

 

The law of Moses is very specific about who was obligated to which laws. The Mosaic law was given to the Jewish people, but there were some Gentiles who lived among the Jewish people in the land of Israel, and there were Gentiles who were visiting or traveling through Israel and there is a subset of the Mosaic law which applies to Gentiles in the land.

 

For example, the list of clean animals to eat is specifically given to the children of Israel. The law concerning not eating blood is given to the children of Israel and strangers (Gentiles in the land of Israel). In the law given to Noah, eating blood is prohibited to all people, but also, all people could consume any animal.

 

The children of Israel were not allowed to eat an animal which died naturally but they were allowed to give or sell an animal which died of itself (died naturally) to Gentiles to eat.

 

In the law of Moses, Jewish people were not to marry others. But strangers/Gentiles are not given any such law and since the Jewish can not marry Gentiles, essentially Gentiles are excluded from that command. In the Mosaic law, Jewish people are to redeem those Jewish people who sell themselves are a bond servant. There is no such law for Gentiles. In the Mosaic covenant, Jewish people are required to bring certain sacrifices to the Temple but Gentiles are not commanded to bring sacrifices, but can if they want to.

 

The Mosaic covenant is one covenant with many commands. Since the commands are all part of this one covenant, the commands can not be divided out, as it is one covenant. To pick and choose which commands to follow is a violation of the Mosaic covenant. If a non-Priest does a command given only to priests is a violation of the Mosaic covenant. For a man to try to do a command given only to women is a violation of the Mosaic covenant. So, can it be a violation of the Mosaic covenant for a Gentile to try to do a command given only to the children of Israel?   

[Guest]

Most Christians are familiar with the teaching that we are not under law but under grace.

Galatians 3:24-25 (KJV)

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

But!

That does not mean we are antinomianists (lawless).

1 Corinthians 9:19-21 (NASB 1995)

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.

20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Christians are not under the law of Moses but are under the law of God: the law of Christ. This shows up in scripture far more often than we realize....

 

~

 

Torah~!

 

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

 

Torah~!

 

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Matthew 7:12

 

Torah~!

 

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:19-28

 

Now How Cool Is That~!

 

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Jeremiah 29:11

 

 

[JohnD]

I'm not sure who you are debating and don't want to take away from that as I have been in many such debates but want to ask you a few questions.

 

Where in scripture were Gentiles who did not live in the land of Israel ever under the law of Moses?

 

The law of Moses is very specific about who was obligated to which laws. The Mosaic law was given to the Jewish people, but there were some Gentiles who lived among the Jewish people in the land of Israel, and there were Gentiles who were visiting or traveling through Israel and there is a subset of the Mosaic law which applies to Gentiles in the land.

 

For example, the list of clean animals to eat is specifically given to the children of Israel. The law concerning not eating blood is given to the children of Israel and strangers (Gentiles in the land of Israel). In the law given to Noah, eating blood is prohibited to all people, but also, all people could consume any animal.

 

The children of Israel were not allowed to eat an animal which died naturally but they were allowed to give or sell an animal which died of itself (died naturally) to Gentiles to eat.

 

In the law of Moses, Jewish people were not to marry others. But strangers/Gentiles are not given any such law and since the Jewish can not marry Gentiles, essentially Gentiles are excluded from that command. In the Mosaic law, Jewish people are to redeem those Jewish people who sell themselves are a bond servant. There is no such law for Gentiles. In the Mosaic covenant, Jewish people are required to bring certain sacrifices to the Temple but Gentiles are not commanded to bring sacrifices, but can if they want to.

 

The Mosaic covenant is one covenant with many commands. Since the commands are all part of this one covenant, the commands can not be divided out, as it is one covenant. To pick and choose which commands to follow is a violation of the Mosaic covenant. If a non-Priest does a command given only to priests is a violation of the Mosaic covenant. For a man to try to do a command given only to women is a violation of the Mosaic covenant. So, can it be a violation of the Mosaic covenant for a Gentile to try to do a command given only to the children of Israel?   

 

1. Well there's Joseph and Pharaoh in Egypt. Daniel and Neuchadnezzar in Babylon. The various proselytes (like the Roman centurian) in the Roman empire. The magi who came from the east (no doubt a generational influence by Daniel several centuries earlier).

 

2. A taboo reiterated in Acts 15 as I recall.

 

3. And to sell pearls and some even herded pigs.

 

4. Okay.

 

5. You are making several points in all these paragraphs and I am not really sure what you are wanting me to answer here. 

[Qnts2]

 

I'm not sure who you are debating and don't want to take away from that as I have been in many such debates but want to ask you a few questions.

 

Where in scripture were Gentiles who did not live in the land of Israel ever under the law of Moses?

 

The law of Moses is very specific about who was obligated to which laws. The Mosaic law was given to the Jewish people, but there were some Gentiles who lived among the Jewish people in the land of Israel, and there were Gentiles who were visiting or traveling through Israel and there is a subset of the Mosaic law which applies to Gentiles in the land.

 

For example, the list of clean animals to eat is specifically given to the children of Israel. The law concerning not eating blood is given to the children of Israel and strangers (Gentiles in the land of Israel). In the law given to Noah, eating blood is prohibited to all people, but also, all people could consume any animal.

 

The children of Israel were not allowed to eat an animal which died naturally but they were allowed to give or sell an animal which died of itself (died naturally) to Gentiles to eat.

 

In the law of Moses, Jewish people were not to marry others. But strangers/Gentiles are not given any such law and since the Jewish can not marry Gentiles, essentially Gentiles are excluded from that command. In the Mosaic law, Jewish people are to redeem those Jewish people who sell themselves are a bond servant. There is no such law for Gentiles. In the Mosaic covenant, Jewish people are required to bring certain sacrifices to the Temple but Gentiles are not commanded to bring sacrifices, but can if they want to.

 

The Mosaic covenant is one covenant with many commands. Since the commands are all part of this one covenant, the commands can not be divided out, as it is one covenant. To pick and choose which commands to follow is a violation of the Mosaic covenant. If a non-Priest does a command given only to priests is a violation of the Mosaic covenant. For a man to try to do a command given only to women is a violation of the Mosaic covenant. So, can it be a violation of the Mosaic covenant for a Gentile to try to do a command given only to the children of Israel?   

 

1. Well there's Joseph and Pharaoh in Egypt. Daniel and Neuchadnezzar in Babylon. The various proselytes (like the Roman centurian) in the Roman empire. The magi who came from the east (no doubt a generational influence by Daniel several centuries earlier).

 

2. A taboo reiterated in Acts 15 as I recall.

 

3. And to sell pearls and some even herded pigs.

 

4. Okay.

 

5. You are making several points in all these paragraphs and I am not really sure what you are wanting me to answer here. 

 

 Not sure what you are answering with these.

 

My questions were:

 

Where in scripture were Gentiles who did not live in the land of Israel ever under the law of Moses?

 

So, can it be a violation of the Mosaic covenant for a Gentile to try to do a command given only to the children of Israel?   

 

I do not think I was disagreeing with you, just giving a different perspective of the same view. Basically, if a Gentile is arguing that saved gentiles become obligated to the Mosaic law, Gentiles were never given the Mosaic law. The law was written to the children of Israel, and the only obligation in the Mosaic law given to any Gentiles was a small subset of the law when a Gentile is in the land of Israel. Similar to the idea that a tourist in another country must obey a small subset of the laws, like not committing murder, but most of the law is written for natives/children of Israel. My argument is based on the OT, and Mosaic covenant.  

[JohnD]

I am not sure what you are getting at. Unless you are saying that the New Covenant applies only to the Gentiles???

 

I totally disagree with this...

 

And I am not really sure you are even saying that...

 

All things are from Jerusalem to Judea to Samaria and to the uttermost parts of the earth... had to be a beginning somewhere at some point in time...

 

[JohnD]

Proverbs 1:8 (NKJV)
8 My son, hear the instruction of your father, And do not forsake the law of your mother;

 

Who IS our mother?

 

Galatians 4:21-31 (NKJV)
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,
24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—
25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.”
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

 

Which mother... which Jerusalem... which Torah are we not to forsake?