asper Posted September 29, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 226 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/15/1954 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hi elhanan, So your source is basically Young’s literal translation. This guy was much better MKJV, By Jay P. Green Mathew chapter 7, 13 Go in through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in through it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and constricted is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. John chapter 3, 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. I expected by your posts that you knew something about Greek grammar so I asked a couple of questions that made realize that you did not. You evidently did not know (perhaps you didn’t even know that there were different types) what type of present and participle they were that caused you to interpret the verses differently. So you must be using some source that is telling you what the verses mean unless of course you believe that the present tense is always translated with the idea of continuance (which is not correct- see the grammar links that I provided) and you get to pick and choose whether it is in the present time or whatever time period that you choose. The same type of questions also go for the participle. I have heard this argument before about believes and believing but it really doesn’t affect me because I believe in the preservation of the saints. But since you brought this verse up I thought you might have some contribution that could have been useful. But I was wrong. But what do the Bibles say? KJV, Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Matthew 7:13 Amplified Bible (AMP) 13 Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering through it. Matthew 7:14 Amplified Bible (AMP) 14 But the gate is narrow (contracted [a]by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it. John 3:16 Amplified Bible (AMP) 16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([a]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life. NET BIBLE, 13 “Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matt 7:13-14 (NET1) 16 For this is the way[36] God loved the world: He gave his one and only[37] Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish[38] but have eternal life.[39] John 3:16 (NET1) Until such time as you present real evidence I will go with the scholars who translated the Bible’s into English. But it still doesn’t matter to me because there are other verses in the Bible about continuing in believing. Perhaps you should read the links that I left because they explain it a lot better then I could ever do. God bless, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted September 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hi elhanan, Are you saying that everything in the Geek New Testament that is in the present tense is not applicable to today because it would the future tense if it was? Let me know, God bless, Tony No, that would certainly be an overly broad generalization. I'll give you an example using a well-known verse - John 3:16. This verse contains the word pisteuon which most Bibles translate as "believe." However the verb pisteuon is a present active participle and should be properly translated as "believing." Therefore the relevant part of this verse should read everyone believing in Him may not perish but may have eternal [age-abiding] life. Thus, what this means for us is that ongoing, continuous belief is necessary for salvation - not just a one-time moment of belief in the past. Here is a prime example where a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. While it is a good thing to help in the understanding of certain passages, in some people it serves to distort the meanings of others. Likewise, parse the verse for yourself floatingaxe and tell me what you come up with. Your generalizations are otherwise useless. I made no generalizations, and nothing I say is useless, but is said with the approval of my Jesus. Believing as an ongoing thing is exactly what it means. Once we are children of the Father and know Him and have experienced Him, there is no turning back. However, we all know there is one defining moment where that new life was bestowed on us, when our spirits moved from dead to alive in Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted September 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hi elhanan, Are you saying that everything in the Geek New Testament that is in the present tense is not applicable to today because it would the future tense if it was? Let me know, God bless, Tony No, that would certainly be an overly broad generalization. I'll give you an example using a well-known verse - John 3:16. This verse contains the word pisteuon which most Bibles translate as "believe." However the verb pisteuon is a present active participle and should be properly translated as "believing." Therefore the relevant part of this verse should read everyone believing in Him may not perish but may have eternal [age-abiding] life. Thus, what this means for us is that ongoing, continuous belief is necessary for salvation - not just a one-time moment of belief in the past. Here is a prime example where a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. While it is a good thing to help in the understanding of certain passages, in some people it serves to distort the meanings of others. Actually, the Greek states: houtos gar egapesen ho theos ton kasmon hoste ton huion abtou ton monogene edoken hina pas ho pisteuon eis auton me apoletal all eche zoen aionion. thus for loves the God the system as-besides the Son of-Him the only-generated He-gives that every the one-believing into Him no should-be-being-destroyed but may-be-having life eonian. What he states scripture reads is true. How the truth is applied is what we should be concerned with. One believing is a continuous action. Stop the action and the blessing also stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asper Posted September 29, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 226 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/15/1954 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hi elhanan, Are you saying that everything in the Geek New Testament that is in the present tense is not applicable to today because it would the future tense if it was? Let me know, God bless, Tony No, that would certainly be an overly broad generalization. I'll give you an example using a well-known verse - John 3:16. This verse contains the word pisteuon which most Bibles translate as "believe." However the verb pisteuon is a present active participle and should be properly translated as "believing." Therefore the relevant part of this verse should read everyone believing in Him may not perish but may have eternal [age-abiding] life. Thus, what this means for us is that ongoing, continuous belief is necessary for salvation - not just a one-time moment of belief in the past. Here is a prime example where a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. While it is a good thing to help in the understanding of certain passages, in some people it serves to distort the meanings of others. Actually, the Greek states: houtos gar egapesen ho theos ton kasmon hoste ton huion abtou ton monogene edoken hina pas ho pisteuon eis auton me apoletal all eche zoen aionion. thus for loves the God the system as-besides the Son of-Him the only-generated He-gives that every the one-believing into Him no should-be-being-destroyed but may-be-having life eonian. What he states scripture reads is true. How the truth is applied is what we should be concerned with. One believing is a continuous action. Stop the action and the blessing also stops. Hi onelight, Thanks for your input but the point was the difference between how he was interpreting the verses in Matthew compared to how he was interpreting the verses in John and how he came to his conclusions. So how did you come to your conclusion that it is believing, instead of believes? Let me know when you get a chance, God bless, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted September 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hi elhanan, Are you saying that everything in the Geek New Testament that is in the present tense is not applicable to today because it would the future tense if it was? Let me know, God bless, Tony No, that would certainly be an overly broad generalization. I'll give you an example using a well-known verse - John 3:16. This verse contains the word pisteuon which most Bibles translate as "believe." However the verb pisteuon is a present active participle and should be properly translated as "believing." Therefore the relevant part of this verse should read everyone believing in Him may not perish but may have eternal [age-abiding] life. Thus, what this means for us is that ongoing, continuous belief is necessary for salvation - not just a one-time moment of belief in the past. Here is a prime example where a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. While it is a good thing to help in the understanding of certain passages, in some people it serves to distort the meanings of others. Actually, the Greek states: houtos gar egapesen ho theos ton kasmon hoste ton huion abtou ton monogene edoken hina pas ho pisteuon eis auton me apoletal all eche zoen aionion. thus for loves the God the system as-besides the Son of-Him the only-generated He-gives that every the one-believing into Him no should-be-being-destroyed but may-be-having life eonian. What he states scripture reads is true. How the truth is applied is what we should be concerned with. One believing is a continuous action. Stop the action and the blessing also stops. I didn't argue with it. This may be true, but the way one runs with a little bit of knowledge and applies it everywhere is what is dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted September 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hi elhanan, Are you saying that everything in the Geek New Testament that is in the present tense is not applicable to today because it would the future tense if it was? Let me know, God bless, Tony No, that would certainly be an overly broad generalization. I'll give you an example using a well-known verse - John 3:16. This verse contains the word pisteuon which most Bibles translate as "believe." However the verb pisteuon is a present active participle and should be properly translated as "believing." Therefore the relevant part of this verse should read everyone believing in Him may not perish but may have eternal [age-abiding] life. Thus, what this means for us is that ongoing, continuous belief is necessary for salvation - not just a one-time moment of belief in the past. Here is a prime example where a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. While it is a good thing to help in the understanding of certain passages, in some people it serves to distort the meanings of others. Actually, the Greek states: houtos gar egapesen ho theos ton kasmon hoste ton huion abtou ton monogene edoken hina pas ho pisteuon eis auton me apoletal all eche zoen aionion. thus for loves the God the system as-besides the Son of-Him the only-generated He-gives that every the one-believing into Him no should-be-being-destroyed but may-be-having life eonian. What he states scripture reads is true. How the truth is applied is what we should be concerned with. One believing is a continuous action. Stop the action and the blessing also stops. Hi onelight, Thanks for your input but the point was the difference between how he was interpreting the verses in Matthew compared to how he was interpreting the verses in John and how he came to his conclusions. So how did you come to your conclusion that it is believing, instead of believes? Let me know when you get a chance, God bless, Tony Easy, it is how it was written in the Greek. The word is pisteuon - G4100. How it is written means with the accusative of person meaning to believe and rest upon. So it is not singular event, but a continuous event, always believing, always leaning, always resting upon, always following Jesus. If Christ meant that all one needs to be is believe just for one second, then scripture would never say we need to run the race, take up our cross daily, and many other passages to means to continue in Him, growing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted September 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hi elhanan, Are you saying that everything in the Geek New Testament that is in the present tense is not applicable to today because it would the future tense if it was? Let me know, God bless, Tony No, that would certainly be an overly broad generalization. I'll give you an example using a well-known verse - John 3:16. This verse contains the word pisteuon which most Bibles translate as "believe." However the verb pisteuon is a present active participle and should be properly translated as "believing." Therefore the relevant part of this verse should read everyone believing in Him may not perish but may have eternal [age-abiding] life. Thus, what this means for us is that ongoing, continuous belief is necessary for salvation - not just a one-time moment of belief in the past. Here is a prime example where a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. While it is a good thing to help in the understanding of certain passages, in some people it serves to distort the meanings of others. Actually, the Greek states: houtos gar egapesen ho theos ton kasmon hoste ton huion abtou ton monogene edoken hina pas ho pisteuon eis auton me apoletal all eche zoen aionion. thus for loves the God the system as-besides the Son of-Him the only-generated He-gives that every the one-believing into Him no should-be-being-destroyed but may-be-having life eonian. What he states scripture reads is true. How the truth is applied is what we should be concerned with. One believing is a continuous action. Stop the action and the blessing also stops. I didn't argue with it. This may be true, but the way one runs with a little bit of knowledge and applies it everywhere is what is dangerous. Believe me when I say I am not taking sides in this conversation, but only trying to bring truth and clarity to the thread, while trying to turn it away from being personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted September 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hi elhanan, Are you saying that everything in the Geek New Testament that is in the present tense is not applicable to today because it would the future tense if it was? Let me know, God bless, Tony No, that would certainly be an overly broad generalization. I'll give you an example using a well-known verse - John 3:16. This verse contains the word pisteuon which most Bibles translate as "believe." However the verb pisteuon is a present active participle and should be properly translated as "believing." Therefore the relevant part of this verse should read everyone believing in Him may not perish but may have eternal [age-abiding] life. Thus, what this means for us is that ongoing, continuous belief is necessary for salvation - not just a one-time moment of belief in the past. Here is a prime example where a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. While it is a good thing to help in the understanding of certain passages, in some people it serves to distort the meanings of others. Actually, the Greek states: houtos gar egapesen ho theos ton kasmon hoste ton huion abtou ton monogene edoken hina pas ho pisteuon eis auton me apoletal all eche zoen aionion. thus for loves the God the system as-besides the Son of-Him the only-generated He-gives that every the one-believing into Him no should-be-being-destroyed but may-be-having life eonian. What he states scripture reads is true. How the truth is applied is what we should be concerned with. One believing is a continuous action. Stop the action and the blessing also stops. I didn't argue with it. This may be true, but the way one runs with a little bit of knowledge and applies it everywhere is what is dangerous. Believe me when I say I am not taking sides in this conversation, but only trying to bring truth and clarity to the thread, while trying to turn it away from being personal. Me, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asper Posted September 29, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 226 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/15/1954 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hi elhanan, Are you saying that everything in the Geek New Testament that is in the present tense is not applicable to today because it would the future tense if it was? Let me know, God bless, Tony No, that would certainly be an overly broad generalization. I'll give you an example using a well-known verse - John 3:16. This verse contains the word pisteuon which most Bibles translate as "believe." However the verb pisteuon is a present active participle and should be properly translated as "believing." Therefore the relevant part of this verse should read everyone believing in Him may not perish but may have eternal [age-abiding] life. Thus, what this means for us is that ongoing, continuous belief is necessary for salvation - not just a one-time moment of belief in the past. Here is a prime example where a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. While it is a good thing to help in the understanding of certain passages, in some people it serves to distort the meanings of others. Actually, the Greek states: houtos gar egapesen ho theos ton kasmon hoste ton huion abtou ton monogene edoken hina pas ho pisteuon eis auton me apoletal all eche zoen aionion. thus for loves the God the system as-besides the Son of-Him the only-generated He-gives that every the one-believing into Him no should-be-being-destroyed but may-be-having life eonian. What he states scripture reads is true. How the truth is applied is what we should be concerned with. One believing is a continuous action. Stop the action and the blessing also stops. Hi onelight, Thanks for your input but the point was the difference between how he was interpreting the verses in Matthew compared to how he was interpreting the verses in John and how he came to his conclusions. So how did you come to your conclusion that it is believing, instead of believes? Let me know when you get a chance, God bless, Tony Easy, it is how it was written in the Greek. The word is pisteuon - G4100. How it is written means with the accusative of person meaning to believe and rest upon. So it is not singular event, but a continuous event, always believing, always leaning, always resting upon, always following Jesus. If Christ meant that all one needs to be is believe just for one second, then scripture would never say we need to run the race, take up our cross daily, and many other passages to means to continue in Him, growing. hi onelight, if only it was so simple as that. here is a link that discusses some of the problems with choosing either one. http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/5401/in-john-316-is-the-word-believe-a-continous-action-for-everlasting-life i'm sure if you do a search you will find many more. God bless, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted September 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hi elhanan, Are you saying that everything in the Geek New Testament that is in the present tense is not applicable to today because it would the future tense if it was? Let me know, God bless, Tony No, that would certainly be an overly broad generalization. I'll give you an example using a well-known verse - John 3:16. This verse contains the word pisteuon which most Bibles translate as "believe." However the verb pisteuon is a present active participle and should be properly translated as "believing." Therefore the relevant part of this verse should read everyone believing in Him may not perish but may have eternal [age-abiding] life. Thus, what this means for us is that ongoing, continuous belief is necessary for salvation - not just a one-time moment of belief in the past. Here is a prime example where a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. While it is a good thing to help in the understanding of certain passages, in some people it serves to distort the meanings of others. Actually, the Greek states: houtos gar egapesen ho theos ton kasmon hoste ton huion abtou ton monogene edoken hina pas ho pisteuon eis auton me apoletal all eche zoen aionion. thus for loves the God the system as-besides the Son of-Him the only-generated He-gives that every the one-believing into Him no should-be-being-destroyed but may-be-having life eonian. What he states scripture reads is true. How the truth is applied is what we should be concerned with. One believing is a continuous action. Stop the action and the blessing also stops. Hi onelight, Thanks for your input but the point was the difference between how he was interpreting the verses in Matthew compared to how he was interpreting the verses in John and how he came to his conclusions. So how did you come to your conclusion that it is believing, instead of believes? Let me know when you get a chance, God bless, Tony Easy, it is how it was written in the Greek. The word is pisteuon - G4100. How it is written means with the accusative of person meaning to believe and rest upon. So it is not singular event, but a continuous event, always believing, always leaning, always resting upon, always following Jesus. If Christ meant that all one needs to be is believe just for one second, then scripture would never say we need to run the race, take up our cross daily, and many other passages to means to continue in Him, growing. hi onelight, if only it was so simple as that. here is a link that discusses some of the problems with choosing either one. http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/5401/in-john-316-is-the-word-believe-a-continous-action-for-everlasting-life i'm sure if you do a search you will find many more. God bless, Tony It is really that simple if you would just sit down with scripture and the Holy Spirit and allow Him to teach and direct your studies. It becomes very complicated when you have His teaching and include mans teaching. By doing so, you spend a lot of time trying to figure out which mans teachings is correct. What do you do when the teachers you spend time reading disagree with what the Holy Spirit is showing you? Good luck, because none of them can show you the truth as He can. I know this first hand as I looked at many teachings trying to find answers, but came very discouraged when I finally realized that there is not one man who teaches like any other man, always finding differences along the line. The Holy Spirit will teach you all truth, and when He teaches you, it is not the surface teaching you can get from other websites and books, but the depth of what Scripture says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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