Evangelical Universalism - True or False Doctrine?

[asper]

Hi onelight,

 

Facts are what give us assurance that we are indeed listening to the Holy Spirit just as works are our assurance that we have faith.

 

Do you really think that all the Bible translators in the translations that I provided before were not listening to the Holy Spirit and only that you do which enables you to translate this verse properly?

 

That’s nice.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

[OneLight]

Hi onelight,

 

Facts are what give us assurance that we are indeed listening to the Holy Spirit just as works are our assurance that we have faith.

 

Do you really think that all the Bible translators in the translations that I provided before were not listening to the Holy Spirit and only that you do which enables you to translate this verse properly?

 

That’s nice.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

That, Tony, is the main questions, isn't it? Who is truly listening to the Holy Spirit and who is not? I suggest that not one man who ever lived, being both parents human, has ever followed the Holy Spirit perfectly. This is why we seek His teachings when it comes to scripture.

What I suggested is that you not depend on other people to show you the truth because they do not agree on what the truth is. Only God can show you the truth, if you are willing to sit and truly listen to Him and not try to compare what you hear with any previous understanding you have. The translation may or may not be correct in certain areas, but those who translated it believed they used the proper words, according to their understanding.

[Elhanan]

Hi elhanan,

 

So your source is basically Young’s literal translation.

 

This guy was much better

MKJV,

By

Jay P. Green

 

Mathew chapter 7,

13 Go in through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in through it.

14 Because narrow is the gate and constricted is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

John chapter 3,

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

 

 

I expected by your posts that you knew something about Greek grammar so I asked a couple of questions that made realize that you did not. You evidently did not know (perhaps you didn’t even know that there were different types) what type of present and participle they were that caused you to interpret the verses differently. So you must be using some source that is telling you what the verses mean unless of course you believe that the present tense is always translated with the idea of continuance (which is not correct- see the grammar links that I provided) and you get to pick and choose whether it is in the present time or whatever time period that you choose. The same type of questions also go for the participle.

 

I have heard this argument before about believes and believing but it really doesn’t affect me because I believe in the preservation of the saints. But since you brought this verse up I thought you might have some contribution that could have been useful. But I was wrong.

 

But what do the Bibles say?

 

KJV,

 

Mt 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Matthew 7:13

Amplified Bible (AMP)

¹³ Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering through it.

Matthew 7:14

Amplified Bible (AMP)

¹⁴ But the gate is narrow (contracted ^[a]by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it.

John 3:16

Amplified Bible (AMP)

¹⁶ For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (^[a]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

 

NET BIBLE,

 

13 “Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matt 7:13-14 (NET1)

 

 

 

16 For this is the way[36] God loved the world: He gave his one and only[37] Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish[38] but have eternal life.[39]

John 3:16 (NET1)

 

Until such time as you present real evidence I will go with the scholars who translated the Bible’s into English. But it still doesn’t matter to me because there are other verses in the Bible about continuing in believing.

 

 

Perhaps you should read the links that I left because they explain it a lot better then I could ever do.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

I read the links but quite frankly the reason I asked you to explain in your own words is although these references distinguish between different tenses, voices etc., how is one supposed to know which ones to apply in order to correctly parse pisteuon in John 3:16?  Do you know how as I am always open learning new things?  If I understand you correctly, you are claiming that pisteuon cannot be translated as believing so please elaborate why not, as you have quoted scripture and parsing references but have not personally applied them specifically to Jn 3:16 in order to complete your argument. The link you provided to onelight is a good article but even that article cites a difference of opinion amongst scholars.

[Elhanan]

 

Elhanan, on 28 Sept 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

The “context provided by the Author” does not include the word “now” so it is very questionable to claim that you are interpreting according to the Author’s intent.  Instead what you have done is insert the word now in order to support your view – not the Author’s.  I still ask you why have you inserted “now” into the text?

 

The context provided by the Author shows us why the people in Noah’s day are introduced. It is encouragement to the people being addressed ( the elect/ believers ) to not be discouraged in the face of adversity. We know Jesus preaching to the pre-deluvians was during the time the Ark was being built from this context because it shows how Noah was able to endure with the help of Spirit of Jesus.

Elhanan replied:

I think your interpretation is very weak as you are straining the text to no end. The text doesn’t say Jesus preached to the predeluvians when the ark was being built. 1 Pet 3:19 plainly states that Jesus preached to them while they were IN PRISON.  Clearly, the predeluvians were not in prison during the construction of the ark. 

 

The context has to do with what Jesus did when he descended into hell. If you contest the notion that Jesus preached to the spirits in hell according to 1 Pet 3:19 then you are at odds with the earliest known written creed with its tenets of the Christian faith:

Apostles' Creed

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended into hell. On the third day he rose again; he ascended into heaven, he is seated at the right hand of the Father, and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.  Amen.

What message did Jesus preach?  1 Pet 4:6 declares that Jesus preached the gospel.

 

The context of the passages is provided by the passages themselves. Let’s look again at the progression from 1Peter 3:14- 1Peter 4

 

1Pe 3:14  But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

 

1Pe 4:14  If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

 

 

It’s obvious this section of scripture is to encourage believers not to be dismayed in the face of adversity. Amid these scriptures are some difficult to understand passages which some people interpret to imply Jesus preached to dead people. The context explains quite clearly that this isn’t the case.

Elhanan replied:

1 Pet 4:6  For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

Scripture does not imply that Jesus preached to the dead; it asserts it.  I’ll take the plain reading of Scripture any day.  If they are difficult for you to understand, it's because you must force an inteepretation upon the text that contradicts its plain statement.

 

It’s interesting you cite, and support, the Apostles’ Creed considering it’s origins and fundamental basis to the Catholic Church’s eternal punishment in hell. They use this interpretation of 1Peter 3 to show how Jesus released believers from hell and unbelievers are doomed in hell and await eternal damnation.  Maybe you should find a different corroboration.

Elhanan replied:

No need to as the Apostles’ Creed stands on its own. It is an ecumenical creed – not solely Roman Catholic - because it was decided upon in church councils that represented the entire church at the time before the church permanently spilt into Eastern (Orthodox) and Western (Roman) factions in AD 1054.  Protestant denominations such as the Lutherans still cite the Apostles’Creed as part of their statement of beliefs.  How the Catholic Church chooses to manipulate Scripture is of no significance to me.  I suppose that you don't heed to all of the doctrines of the Catholic Church either.

 

Also notice, from this Creed, that it only states that Jesus descended to the grave/dead. It only later was manipulated to imply preaching to the dead.

Elhanan replied:  Please be accurate in your claims. The Apostles’Creed was never manipulated to state that Jesus preached to the dead. It only states that he descended into hell/Hades – nothing more – nothing less.  But as I referenced earlier, 1 Pet 4:6 plainly states; not implies, that Jesus proclaimed the gospel to the dead, therefore I think your point is moot.

 

 

In terms of Matt 7, you are the one who made a big deal out of the word “find” and when I pointed out to you that the word “find” is incorrect, you now minimize your own argument.  Your intention may be clear to yourself but it is certainly obscure to me.  In Matt 7:13-14 Jesus is simply saying that in his day, many are going through the broad way that is leading to destruction and contrastingly only a few are finding the narrow way which leads to life. He makes no reference whatsoever as to what happens in the future. If Jesus wanted to reference what would happen in the future, the verb construction of the verse would reflect a future action - which it does not.

 

Ok now I see your point. You are missing that Jesus states that many go through the wide gate that leads to destruction.

 

 

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

 

If Jesus intention is that all  people will eventually go through the narrow gate why does He say many go through the wide gate and are destroyed ?

Elhanan replied:

Yes Jesus is saying that at the present time many are going through wide gate and are being destroyed; i.e., they are headed for hell/lake of fire, no doubt.  But I don’t think I need to remind you that we are debating evangelical universalism here which holds that all will eventually be saved as the lake of fire is for the purpose of temporary chastisement not eternal punishment.  Unless - you are referring to “destroyed” meaning annihilation which is a whole other topic in itself.

In addition you neglect the context of this passage as Jesus in his Sermon on the Mount is addressing those under still under the Old Covenant.  The New Covenant has not yet been established.  The Old Covenant proved that man was unable to abide by it, thus Jesus is simply saying that under the OC only a few are finding the narrow way while many are going down the broad way.

Jesus was presenting the New Covenant from the time He began to preach. You are really grasping at staws here.

Elhanan replied:

Your argument is irrelevant.  Although Jesus began his preaching, the people are still under the dispensation of the Old Covenant. The majority of them are still perishing under the Law, because the blood of Christ has obviously not yet been shed and made efficacious.

We can see corroborating scriptures where Jesus presents the 2 options to people of Eternal life ( the narrow gate ) or Eternal destruction ( the wide gate ) and who these people are ( sheep/believers and goats/non-believers ).

I agree that there are only the two options above. Jesus is saying that presently many are headed to “destruction” while presently few are headed to life – that we agree on. However we disagree on whether those headed for destruction are eternally doomed or temporarily chastised in the lake of fire. That’s why so much attention has been focused on the translation/meaning of “eternal.” Furthermore, the sheep & goats are not the same as believers & unbelievers.

[Guest ninhao]

 

Elhanan, on 30 Sept 2013 - 5:07 PM, said:

 

I think your interpretation is very weak as you are straining the text to no end. The text doesn’t say Jesus preached to the predeluvians when the ark was being built. 1 Pet 3:19 plainly states that Jesus preached to them while they were IN PRISON.  Clearly, the predeluvians were not in prison during the construction of the ark. 

 

 

 

 

My dividing of the passage is correct and in line with the intention of the Author. The section under discussion is parenthesised by Peter telling believers to be happy when they suffer for the sake of righteousness; and that they have the Holy Spirit as support in the same way Noah did.  The pre-deluvian non-believers are “in prison” to this day and this is precisely what Peter meant. We can also see, if you like, from other scriptures that all people are considered “dead in sin” until they believe and receive the Holy Spirit.

 

Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

Jas 2:26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

We can confidently say all non- believers are “in prison” while they remain in unbelief. Either way, the preaching Jesus undertook by His Spirit was in Noah’s day and this is supported by the context given.

 

 

 

 

Scripture does not imply that Jesus preached to the dead; it asserts it.  I’ll take the plain reading of Scripture any day.  If they are difficult for you to understand, it's because you must force an inteepretation upon the text that contradicts its plain statement.

 

 

 

 

As shown above the context tells us when the preaching took place to the pre-deluvians and, in 1Peter 4:6 to people who died in faith. It is impossible to correctly interpret scripture without understanding the intention of the Author and discerning the context. Actually we don’t need discernment in this instance because the context is clearly given.

 

1Pe 3:14  But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

 

1Pe 4:14  If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

 

Denying the correct context will often lead to erroneous interpretation and often is the platform needed to embrace incorrect doctrine.

 

 

 

 

No need to as the Apostles’ Creed stands on its own. It is an ecumenical creed – not solely Roman Catholic - because it was decided upon in church councils that represented the entire church at the time before the church permanently spilt into Eastern (Orthodox) and Western (Roman) factions in AD 1054.  Protestant denominations such as the Lutherans still cite the Apostles’Creed as part of their statement of beliefs.  How the Catholic Church chooses to manipulate Scripture is of no significance to me.  I suppose that you don't heed to all of the doctrines of the Catholic Church either.

 

 

 

 

I’ll present the original Creed and show why it doesn’t support your premise , or the modern Catholic view. ( R = original T= edited  sorry about the formatting)

 

R.

T.

(1) I believe in God the Father Almighty;

(1) I believe in God the Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and earth

(2) And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord;

(2) And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord;

(3) Who was born of (de) the Holy Ghost and of (ex) the Virgin Mary;

(3) Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary,

(4) Crucified under Pontius Pilate and buried;

(4) Suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried;

(5) The third day He rose again from the dead,

(5) He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;

(6) He ascended into Heaven,

(6) He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;

(7) Sitteth at the right hand of the Father,

(7) From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

(8) Whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

(8) I believe in the Holy Ghost,

(9) And in the Holy Ghost,

(9) The Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints

(10) The Holy Church,

(10) The forgiveness of sins,

(11) The forgiveness of sins;

(11) The resurrection of the body, and

(12) The resurrection of the body.

(12) life everlasting.

 

 

Notice originally #5  contains no mention of Jesus descending into hell. This was added later to support this erroneous interpretation of  preaching to the dead and likely also is used to support the false purgatory doctrine.

 

You’ll also find many Churches which use the Creed revert to the original, unadulterated, version.

 

 

 

  

 

Please be accurate in your claims. The Apostles’Creed was never manipulated to state that Jesus preached to the dead. It only states that he descended into hell/Hades – nothing more – nothing less.  But as I referenced earlier, 1 Pet 4:6 plainly states; not implies, that Jesus proclaimed the gospel to the dead, therefore I think your point is moot.

 

 

 

As shown above it is clear the Creed was manipulated. 1 Peter 4:6 is amid the passages in which Peter goes to length in encouraging his audience. Until you accept the clear context of these verses you will not be able to rightly interpret them. The passages state that Jesus, Noah, and all believers living and dead had/have the Holy Spirit for support and that they should rejoice and not be dismayed.

 

 

 

 

Yes Jesus is saying that at the present time many are going through wide gate and are being destroyed; i.e., they are headed for hell/lake of fire, no doubt.  But I don’t think I need to remind you that we are debating evangelical universalism here which holds that all will eventually be saved as the lake of fire is for the purpose of temporary chastisement not eternal punishment.  Unless - you are referring to “destroyed” meaning annihilation which is a whole other topic in itself.

 

 

 

 

Jesus said the gate that the wicked enter “leadeth” ( carries away ) them to destruction. Many enter this gate and are destroyed is the clear meaning. Again we need to rightly divide this passage. We can see Jesus intention is to show that entering the wide gate will cause destruction.

 

Mat 7:19  Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

 

The message is clear.

 

I’m interpreting destroyed as having eternal consequence and this can be corroborated with n Matthew 25: 46 where Jesus juxtaposes the fate of the wicked against the righteous when we know the righteous live eternally. It’s clear the wicked also receive an eternal consequence whether that’s destruction ( annihilation ) or never ending punishment.

 

I agree that there are only the two options above. Jesus is saying that presently many are headed to “destruction” while presently few are headed to life – that we agree on. However we disagree on whether those headed for destruction are eternally doomed or temporarily chastised in the lake of fire. That’s why so much attention has been focused on the translation/meaning of “eternal.” Furthermore, the sheep & goats are not the same as believers & unbelievers.

 

 

 

You have yet to present any scripture which shows anyone exiting the LOF.  When we correctly interpret Jesus intention it’s clear He contrasts 2 eternal consequences for people.

Do you agree Jesus intention using aionios when referring to the righteous is to illustrate eternal life ?

[OneLight]

However we disagree on whether those headed for destruction are eternally doomed or temporarily chastised in the lake of fire. That’s why so much attention has been focused on the translation/meaning of “eternal.” Furthermore, the sheep & goats are not the same as believers & unbelievers.

Ask yourself this question, Brother. If everyone was given a second chance, to be refined, why did God send Jesus to be our final Sacrifice? There would be no need at all. Once they stood before Jesus, before entering the Lake of Fire, they would know the truth which they wold be contemplating until they got it correct.

[Floatingaxe]

Elhanan---

 

Where in God's word is it ever taught that anyone has a pass out of the Lake of Fire? Where is it taught that God's final decree of judgment on anyone is overturned, and that God is not to be trusted in His final decisions about what to do with evil and evildoers?

[asper]

 

 

Hi elhanan,

 

So your source is basically Young’s literal translation.

 

This guy was much better

MKJV,

By

Jay P. Green

 

Mathew chapter 7,

13 Go in through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in through it.

14 Because narrow is the gate and constricted is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

John chapter 3,

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

 

 

I expected by your posts that you knew something about Greek grammar so I asked a couple of questions that made realize that you did not. You evidently did not know (perhaps you didn’t even know that there were different types) what type of present and participle they were that caused you to interpret the verses differently. So you must be using some source that is telling you what the verses mean unless of course you believe that the present tense is always translated with the idea of continuance (which is not correct- see the grammar links that I provided) and you get to pick and choose whether it is in the present time or whatever time period that you choose. The same type of questions also go for the participle.

 

I have heard this argument before about believes and believing but it really doesn’t affect me because I believe in the preservation of the saints. But since you brought this verse up I thought you might have some contribution that could have been useful. But I was wrong.

 

But what do the Bibles say?

 

KJV,

 

Mt 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Matthew 7:13

Amplified Bible (AMP)

¹³ Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering through it.

Matthew 7:14

Amplified Bible (AMP)

¹⁴ But the gate is narrow (contracted ^[a]by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it.

John 3:16

Amplified Bible (AMP)

¹⁶ For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (^[a]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

 

NET BIBLE,

 

13 “Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matt 7:13-14 (NET1)

 

 

 

16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 (NET1)

 

Until such time as you present real evidence I will go with the scholars who translated the Bible’s into English. But it still doesn’t matter to me because there are other verses in the Bible about continuing in believing.

 

 

Perhaps you should read the links that I left because they explain it a lot better then I could ever do.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

I read the links but quite frankly the reason I asked you to explain in your own words is although these references distinguish between different tenses, voices etc., how is one supposed to know which ones to apply in order to correctly parse pisteuon in John 3:16?  Do you know how as I am always open learning new things?  If I understand you correctly, you are claiming that pisteuon cannot be translated as believing so please elaborate why not, as you have quoted scripture and parsing references but have not personally applied them specifically to Jn 3:16 in order to complete your argument. The link you provided to onelight is a good article but even that article cites a difference of opinion amongst scholars.

Hi elhanan,

you showed my point exactly. how would you or i know? my advise to you is that the next time you want to correct what the translations say that you better bring some gramarians with you. grammer is quite complicated.

i apoligize for being so abrupt with you as i actually like the way you present your case. but it is harder to win if you take the wrong position. not imposible but definitly harder.

God bless,

Tony

[Elhanan]

 

 

Elhanan, on 30 Sept 2013 - 5:07 PM, said:

 

I think your interpretation is very weak as you are straining the text to no end. The text doesn’t say Jesus preached to the predeluvians when the ark was being built. 1 Pet 3:19 plainly states that Jesus preached to them while they were IN PRISON.  Clearly, the predeluvians were not in prison during the construction of the ark. 

 

 

 

 

My dividing of the passage is correct and in line with the intention of the Author. The section under discussion is parenthesised by Peter telling believers to be happy when they suffer for the sake of righteousness; and that they have the Holy Spirit as support in the same way Noah did.  The pre-deluvian non-believers are “in prison” to this day and this is precisely what Peter meant. We can also see, if you like, from other scriptures that all people are considered “dead in sin” until they believe and receive the Holy Spirit.

 

Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

Jas 2:26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

We can confidently say all non- believers are “in prison” while they remain in unbelief. Either way, the preaching Jesus undertook by His Spirit was in Noah’s day and this is supported by the context given.

I guess that we will remain in disagreement over this because despite my multiple requests asking you explain why you insert the word "now" in prison into the text, you have remained silent in your response.  Instead what you have done is rephrased your wording to "in prison to this day" which is essentially the same thing. It is a risky thing to add to the biblical text in order to support your view therefore I cannot support it.

 

 

 

Scripture does not imply that Jesus preached to the dead; it asserts it.  I’ll take the plain reading of Scripture any day.  If they are difficult for you to understand, it's because you must force an inteepretation upon the text that contradicts its plain statement.

 

 

 

 

As shown above the context tells us when the preaching took place to the pre-deluvians and, in 1Peter 4:6 to people who died in faith. It is impossible to correctly interpret scripture without understanding the intention of the Author and discerning the context. Actually we don’t need discernment in this instance because the context is clearly given.

 

1Pe 3:14  But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

 

1Pe 4:14  If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

 

Denying the correct context will often lead to erroneous interpretation and often is the platform needed to embrace incorrect doctrine.

The correct context means dealing with the text as it is written and not interpreting it through the addition of your own words.  With all due respect, the Jehovah Witnesses do this and I'm sure you do not condone it, so why do you do it?

 

 

 

 

No need to as the Apostles’ Creed stands on its own. It is an ecumenical creed – not solely Roman Catholic - because it was decided upon in church councils that represented the entire church at the time before the church permanently spilt into Eastern (Orthodox) and Western (Roman) factions in AD 1054.  Protestant denominations such as the Lutherans still cite the Apostles’Creed as part of their statement of beliefs.  How the Catholic Church chooses to manipulate Scripture is of no significance to me.  I suppose that you don't heed to all of the doctrines of the Catholic Church either.

 

 

 

 

I’ll present the original Creed and show why it doesn’t support your premise , or the modern Catholic view. ( R = original T= edited  sorry about the formatting)

 

R.

T.

(1) I believe in God the Father Almighty;

(1) I believe in God the Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and earth

(2) And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord;

(2) And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord;

(3) Who was born of (de) the Holy Ghost and of (ex) the Virgin Mary;

(3) Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary,

(4) Crucified under Pontius Pilate and buried;

(4) Suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried;

(5) The third day He rose again from the dead,

(5) He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;

(6) He ascended into Heaven,

(6) He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;

(7) Sitteth at the right hand of the Father,

(7) From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

(8) Whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

(8) I believe in the Holy Ghost,

(9) And in the Holy Ghost,

(9) The Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints

(10) The Holy Church,

(10) The forgiveness of sins,

(11) The forgiveness of sins;

(11) The resurrection of the body, and

(12) The resurrection of the body.

(12) life everlasting.

 

 

Notice originally #5  contains no mention of Jesus descending into hell. This was added later to support this erroneous interpretation of  preaching to the dead and likely also is used to support the false purgatory doctrine.

 

You’ll also find many Churches which use the Creed revert to the original, unadulterated, version.

You are correct that the Old Roman Creed does not have that phrase and frankly we don't know why it was added to the Apostles' Creed. The fact that it is was added later could just as well be to confirm what they believed Scripture taught. 

 

 

 

  

 

Please be accurate in your claims. The Apostles’Creed was never manipulated to state that Jesus preached to the dead. It only states that he descended into hell/Hades – nothing more – nothing less.  But as I referenced earlier, 1 Pet 4:6 plainly states; not implies, that Jesus proclaimed the gospel to the dead, therefore I think your point is moot.

 

 

 

As shown above it is clear the Creed was manipulated. 1 Peter 4:6 is amid the passages in which Peter goes to length in encouraging his audience. Until you accept the clear context of these verses you will not be able to rightly interpret them. The passages state that Jesus, Noah, and all believers living and dead had/have the Holy Spirit for support and that they should rejoice and not be dismayed.

My same argument as above; we're riding the merry-go-round here and we've beaten these ponies into the ground.

 

 

 

 

Yes Jesus is saying that at the present time many are going through wide gate and are being destroyed; i.e., they are headed for hell/lake of fire, no doubt.  But I don’t think I need to remind you that we are debating evangelical universalism here which holds that all will eventually be saved as the lake of fire is for the purpose of temporary chastisement not eternal punishment.  Unless - you are referring to “destroyed” meaning annihilation which is a whole other topic in itself.

 

 

 

 

Jesus said the gate that the wicked enter “leadeth” ( carries away ) them to destruction. Many enter this gate and are destroyed is the clear meaning. Again we need to rightly divide this passage. We can see Jesus intention is to show that entering the wide gate will cause destruction.

 

Mat 7:19  Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

 

The message is clear.

 

I’m interpreting destroyed as having eternal consequence and this can be corroborated with n Matthew 25: 46 where Jesus juxtaposes the fate of the wicked against the righteous when we know the righteous live eternally. It’s clear the wicked also receive an eternal consequence whether that’s destruction ( annihilation ) or never ending punishment.

 

I agree that there are only the two options above. Jesus is saying that presently many are headed to “destruction” while presently few are headed to life – that we agree on. However we disagree on whether those headed for destruction are eternally doomed or temporarily chastised in the lake of fire. That’s why so much attention has been focused on the translation/meaning of “eternal.” Furthermore, the sheep & goats are not the same as believers & unbelievers.

 

 

 

You have yet to present any scripture which shows anyone exiting the LOF.  When we correctly interpret Jesus intention it’s clear He contrasts 2 eternal consequences for people.

Do you agree Jesus intention using aionios when referring to the righteous is to illustrate eternal life ?

I believe that it is best practice to translate aionios as age-biding or something similar as eternal is not an acceptable translation and I'll use Matt 25:46 as an example to thus address your concerns in my next post to you. 

[Elhanan]

Hi elhanan,

you showed my point exactly. how would you or i know? my advise to you is that the next time you want to correct what the translations say that you better bring some gramarians with you. grammer is quite complicated.

i apoligize for being so abrupt with you as i actually like the way you present your case. but it is harder to win if you take the wrong position. not imposible but definitly harder.

God bless,

Tony

 

You assume it is the wrong position and believe what you hold to be "true" yet you concede that the meaning of the verse is contested.  Grammar is not as complicated as you believe.  In many cases the meaning of a contested verse can be drawn from its immediate context. Examine the context two verses later in Jn 3:18.  This verse is especially pertinent not only due to its contextual proximity to Jn 3:16 but because the word "believe" occurs 3 times in both negative and positive form and in the present and perfect tense.  It demonstrates that one does not come under judgment as long as ongoing belief is present.  If you want to continue this discussion, it would make for a good topic to start in another thread so as not to go off topic here.

 

“The one who continues trusting [pisteuon, present participle] in him is not condemned; the one who does not continue trusting [same construction but with negative particle] is already condemned [perfect passive, is in a state of condemnation] because he has not believed with abiding results [pepisteuken, perfect tense, indicating permanent attitude of unbelief] in the name of the Son of God” (Light From the Greek New Testament, Anderson Press: Warner, IN, 1959, p. 105).