Is NIV false doctrine?

[blindwhale]

I play around a lot with bible gateway's search tool to find the differences between copies of the bibles. Some things I've found that been bugging me about NIV is the switching or subtraction of words. I'll give some examples.

 

In NIV there are no occurrences of the word "saint", it has all been changed to "holy ones" or "holy people" etc.

 

I was under the understanding that only God was holy. Am I wrong?

 

1 Samuel 2:2

New International Version (NIV)

² “There is no one holy like the Lord;
    there is no one besides you;
    there is no Rock like our God.

 

Okay, so from Samuel 2:2 of NIV we see the statement that only the Lord is holy.

We get the same result from KJV too.

 

1 Samuel 2:2

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

² There is none holy as the Lord:
for there is none beside thee:
neither is there any rock like our God.

 

Then Psalm 89:7 of NIV goes on to contradict this statement.

 

Psalm 89:7

New International Version (NIV)

⁷ In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared;
    he is more awesome than all who surround him.

 

So only God is holy yet He is before the holy ones?

 

In the same Psalm, KJV sticks to the use of the word "saint".

 

Psalm 89:7

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

⁷ God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints,
and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

 

The NIV is implying an equality between God and the followers. This is insanely deceptive.

I honestly feel that what I see qualifies NIV as false doctrine.

 

Can I get some input from you doctrine experts out there?

Edited September 20, 2013 by blindwhale

[Fez]

There is none holy as the Lord:

 

 In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared;

 he is more awesome than all who surround him.

 

All this is saying is that there are holy ones, but none is as holy as the Lord.

[Fez]

And..

 

Rom_12:1  I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 

 

Eph_1:4  even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 

 

Col_1:22  he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 

 

Col_3:12  Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 

 

Is God only Holy? We are told we are chosen to be holy.The bible (this is the ESV), is full of scriptures pointing to this, but I think you will find that the bible also says (even in the scripture you present), that there is none more Holy than God. How could there be? 

 

[Guest]

 

1 Samuel 2:2 New International Version (NIV)

 

There is none holy as the Lord:

 

 In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared;

 he is more awesome than all who surround him.

 

All this is saying is that there are holy ones, but none is as holy as the Lord.

 

Awesome~!

 

And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment. Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts. 2 Chronicles 19:6-7

[blindwhale]

All good examples. I guess my ultimate wonder that remains then is why they chose to take out the word saint in NIV to begin with.

 

I guess breaking down the words is the best way to start.

 

saint  (snt)

n.

1.

a. Abbr. St. or S. Christianity A person officially recognized, especially by canonization, as being entitled to public veneration and capable of interceding for people on earth.

b. A person who has died and gone to heaven.

c. Saint A member of any of various religious groups, especially a Latter-Day Saint.

2. An extremely virtuous person.

tr.v. saint·ed, saint·ing, saints

To name, recognize, or venerate as a saint; canonize.

 

ho·ly  (hl)

adj. ho·li·er, ho·li·est

1. Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred.

2. Regarded with or worthy of worship or veneration; revered: a holy book.

3. Living according to a strict or highly moral religious or spiritual system; saintly: a holy person.

4. Specified or set apart for a religious purpose: a holy place.

5. Solemnly undertaken; sacrosanct: a holy pledge.

6. Regarded as deserving special respect or reverence: The pursuit of peace is our holiest quest.

7. Informal Used as an intensive: raised holy hell over the mischief their children did.

 

Okay so by definition a saint is a holy person. That clears it up to some degree. Yet I still wonder, what was wrong with the word saint to begin with?

[missmuffet]

The NIV was not recommended by a couple of websites so I stay away from it.

[ayin jade]

 

saint  (snt)

n.

1.

a. Abbr. St. or S. Christianity A person officially recognized, especially by canonization, as being entitled to public veneration and capable of interceding for people on earth.

b. A person who has died and gone to heaven.

c. Saint A member of any of various religious groups, especially a Latter-Day Saint.

2. An extremely virtuous person.

tr.v. saint·ed, saint·ing, saints

To name, recognize, or venerate as a saint; canonize.

 

 

 

A biblical definition of saint is not part of the definition of saint you posted above. 

[The_Patriot21]

from my studying of the NIV compared to the original text and more literal translations, I would not  consider the NIV to be false doctrine. I do, however consider it to be watered down, with a few innacuracies, and a bit to politically correct. I use it on occasion with kids, I consider it to be a "so-so" translation. Its not bad, but I wouldnt call it exceptional, either.

[Guest]

Even the word translation, as in translations of the bible, has issues. There are different ways to translate. If we do  a literal, word for word translation, it often comes out as nonsense, some people prefer word for word translation, but few people can get a good understanding from them alone. When a translator translated for you, and in communicating what you are saying to a person of another language, they do not do word for word translations. Figures of speech really cause havoc. What they do instead, is translate though for though, to make it understandable. This is the idea behind the NIV. In is a partial paraphrase, it intend to be literal (more or less) when that conveys the meaning of the text. When understanding is hindered by literal translation, it substitutes there best estimation, of what idea the writer is intending to convey.

 

This is the best way for many people, who do not have the time, the tools and the inclination to compare the verses with original languages and their nuances, as well as matters of culture, that color the meanings of ideas. The NIV is not perfect (no translation is) but it might be the best for some people. Of the versions that I am intimately familiar with, I find the NASB to be the closest to literal, while still being understandable to 'normal' people.

 

With respect to words like holy or saint, they have a problem, because English speaking people usually have no idea what either term means. The most literal meaning of holy, is to be set apart, separate. In this sense what we usually mean, is that we as believers, are different from the world, set apart for God. All Christians are saints in the Bible, we are all set apart - sanctified - by God, for His purposes. Holy does not typically mean pure, righteous etc, but it can certainly imply that, in the case of God He is Holy like no other, He is entirely different. Holiness is the goal of sanctification, to be set apart to be conformed to the image of Jesus. It is an ongoing thing, just as being saved is. Now, some will take issue with that, but in the Bible, we have been saved, are being saved and will be saved, as were are also, set apart - sanctified, from before the creation and evermore. 

 

Saint is a synonym for a person of God, a Holy one, a Christian, one set apart, etc. So, if the NIV removes it, there is nothing wrong, as long as some other synonym is present to take it's place. 

[blindwhale]

 

 

saint  (snt)

n.

1.

a. Abbr. St. or S. Christianity A person officially recognized, especially by canonization, as being entitled to public veneration and capable of interceding for people on earth.

b. A person who has died and gone to heaven.

c. Saint A member of any of various religious groups, especially a Latter-Day Saint.

2. An extremely virtuous person.

tr.v. saint·ed, saint·ing, saints

To name, recognize, or venerate as a saint; canonize.

 

 

 

A biblical definition of saint is not part of the definition of saint you posted above. 

 

can you give some clarity on this?

 

 

Even the word translation, as in translations of the bible, has issues. There are different ways to translate. If we do  a literal, word for word translation, it often comes out as nonsense, some people prefer word for word translation, but few people can get a good understanding from them alone. When a translator translated for you, and in communicating what you are saying to a person of another language, they do not do word for word translations. Figures of speech really cause havoc. What they do instead, is translate though for though, to make it understandable. This is the idea behind the NIV. In is a partial paraphrase, it intend to be literal (more or less) when that conveys the meaning of the text. When understanding is hindered by literal translation, it substitutes there best estimation, of what idea the writer is intending to convey.

 

This is the best way for many people, who do not have the time, the tools and the inclination to compare the verses with original languages and their nuances, as well as matters of culture, that color the meanings of ideas. The NIV is not perfect (no translation is) but it might be the best for some people. Of the versions that I am intimately familiar with, I find the NASB to be the closest to literal, while still being understandable to 'normal' people.

 

With respect to words like holy or saint, they have a problem, because English speaking people usually have no idea what either term means. The most literal meaning of holy, is to be set apart, separate. In this sense what we usually mean, is that we as believers, are different from the world, set apart for God. All Christians are saints in the Bible, we are all set apart - sanctified - by God, for His purposes. Holy does not typically mean pure, righteous etc, but it can certainly imply that, in the case of God He is Holy like no other, He is entirely different. Holiness is the goal of sanctification, to be set apart to be conformed to the image of Jesus. It is an ongoing thing, just as being saved is. Now, some will take issue with that, but in the Bible, we have been saved, are being saved and will be saved, as were are also, set apart - sanctified, from before the creation and evermore. 

 

Saint is a synonym for a person of God, a Holy one, a Christian, one set apart, etc. So, if the NIV removes it, there is nothing wrong, as long as some other synonym is present to take it's place. 

 

Some very good information. Thanks for your response.

 

 

I play around a lot with bible gateway's search tool to find the differences between copies of the bibles. Some things I've found that been bugging me about NIV is the switching or subtraction of words. I'll give some examples.

 

In NIV there are no occurrences of the word "saint", it has all been changed to "holy ones" or "holy people" etc.

 

I was under the understanding that only God was holy. Am I wrong?

 

1 Samuel 2:2

New International Version (NIV)

² “There is no one holy like the Lord;

    there is no one besides you;

    there is no Rock like our God.

 

Okay, so from Samuel 2:2 of NIV we see the statement that only the Lord is holy.

We get the same result from KJV too.

 

1 Samuel 2:2

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

² There is none holy as the Lord:

for there is none beside thee:

neither is there any rock like our God.

 

Then Psalm 89:7 of NIV goes on to contradict this statement.

 

Psalm 89:7

New International Version (NIV)

⁷ In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared;

    he is more awesome than all who surround him.

 

So only God is holy yet He is before the holy ones?

 

In the same Psalm, KJV sticks to the use of the word "saint".

 

Psalm 89:7

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

⁷ God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints,

and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

 

The NIV is implying an equality between God and the followers. This is insanely deceptive.

I honestly feel that what I see qualifies NIV as false doctrine.

 

Can I get some input from you doctrine experts out there?

The NIV has a lot of problems, including the fact it leaves out entire verses and important words.  For instance, when speaking of casting out devils, Jesus said a certain kind comes not out but through prayer and fasting, and the word fasting is left out of the NIV.  It was because of issues like this I started investigating new translations, and wound up KJV only.  It also likes to discredit passages by claiming they don't appear in "the most reliable manuscripts," but they give no explaination as to why some manuscripts are more reliable to them?  The people that put the NIV out also put out the abomination called the TNIV.  It is one of the worst translations out there, but I recommend staying away from all new translations. 

 

I have also noticed some missing verses in NIV. I forgot about this until you mentioned it. I use KJV myself too. Never heard of TNIV, but if it's bad as you say it is perhaps I'll check it out for some laughs.