Are they all going to Hell?

[enoob57]

I was watching a video of Sam Harris criticizing Christians for believing that all believers in other faiths wind up in Hell, since Christianity is the only Way.  I got to thinking about it and the verse John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life:  no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."  I have long thought that this meant all (even decent) people of other faiths wind up in Hell for not believing on Him, even though they never heard the Gospel.  But this is one interpretation of the verse.  I have come around to considering what sends someone to Hell.  It is rejection of Christ.  These hundreds of millions of people did not have the chance, so why should we interpret the verse to mean that God will not provide a chance for them in a mysterious way?  This is known as Inclusivism; many Christians, including CS Lewis thought this way, as do I.  Exclusivism is the former idea.

I have taken much chastisement for holding this view, but I think it is the only rational way in accordance with the Love of God to answer this perplexing issue.   I am a very enthusiastic supporter of missionary efforts and this view does not diminish the urgency of the Gospel at all.   Let me know what you think.

Awesome thought provoking thread wolf.

My two cents- I hope so. I hope God gives these people who have not REJECTED Christ a chance to ACCEPT him. Something tells me though that if you have not accepted Christ before death, that may be all folks.

As for where do I think people who don't believe in Christ but who have not rejected him go upon death, I don't know. That's exclusively gods business.

What do we do with those whose rejection of Christ is understandable:

 

a poorly expressed gospel

sexual abuse which indelibly associates God with the pedophile.

missionaries who enslave the recipients etc. etc.

 

Now, if you mean those who have rejected Christ under the right conditions: (the gospel was well communicated; the recipient was in a state of mind in which rejection could only be due to pride) then we have another issue.

 

clb

What is the effort of the darkness to overcome the light is naught!

For that which 'IS' created speaks loudest and that which is not of

creation sin and darkness speaks less... therefore the ones in darkness

are as God has said-

Rom 1:19-20

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;

for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things

of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being

understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power

and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

KJV

It is settled by God By His Word and we are to perform in the place God

has brought us into being in that Word... the confusion you are reporting

in your statement is because of sin in this place bringing us constantly

in a place of fluid like adjustment... I prefer to stand upon the Rock firm

construct of His Word as no one will have excuse according to His Word where

ever they are! As I am ready to give an account of the beauty of Him that has

come into the world to lead us out of the world Love, Steven

[Enoch2021]

You cannot make natural selection not exist by waving your hand any more than a nonbeliever can say God doesn't exist to make it so. The evidence is very good. Remember the case of pepper colored moths years ago in England when the dark variety prevailed in response to a new, sooty environment? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution. You have to be in denial not to see the adaptation of organisms to their environments. This is not to remove God from the equation, rather it shows how robust creation is.  Why cannot God use such principles as well as other natural "laws" in the universe?  He has created a universe in which nature is self sustaining through these principles.  Truly extraordinary.

The idea that bad things in nature are a result of the fall is disconcerting. This means some truly awful things are part of design engineered to harm us and other organisms.

 

Had to chime in here .....

 

'Moreover, during phylogenetic organogenesis, natural selection must be capable of foresight. Isn't "choosing" its prime function? But the choice cannot take place without predicting the future role of the incipient organ. Without such prescience, the coordination of successive states is incomprehensible. Did Darwin take this into consideration?'

Pierre Grasse PhD, Evolution of Living Organisms, p.106

 

'We fully understand Darwin's fears and wonder what they would have been, had he been confronted with the anatomical and cytological complexity that is revealed by modern biology; he would have been even more worried had he known that selection cannot create anything on its own.

Pierre Grasse PhD, Evolution of Living Organisms,  p.104-5'

 

Peppered Moths:

The experiments beautifully demonstrate natural selection- or the survival of the fittest- in action, but they do not show evolution, for however the populations may alter in their content or light, intermediate or dark forms, all the moths remain from beginning to end Biston betularia.

L. Harrison, FRS, Introduction to Darwin's Origin of Species J.M. Dent & Sons, London, 1971, p.XI

 

** Note:  The Peppered Moths were a Fraud......

 

"In 25 years we have found only two betularia on the tree (one on an appropriate background and one not), and none elsewhere."

C.A Clarke,  G.S. Mani and G. Wynne, Evolution in reverse: clean air and the peppered moth, Biological Journal of the Linneon Society 26:189-199, 1985;  p. 197

"...dead moths were glued to the tree."

J.A. Coyne, Nature 396(6706):35-36, 1998

[Enoch2021]

 

A specific species of moth, adapting to a climate or other change over a series of generation, isn't natural selection.  Natural selection, the operative term being "selection" refers to one species being unfit and thus unable to survive in given environment while another stronger and more fit species is able to survive and thrive.  

 

Natural selection does NOT refer to adaptive changes within a given species, no matter how you try to spin it. 

 

GW is right, the moths did undergo natural selection. Adaptive changes within a given species is natural selection, and also evolution. I don't know what happened when you talked to those biologists about evolution and natural selection, but something happened and you just do not understand the subject. You can greatly improve your understanding by taking five minutes to go over the basics of natural selection from Berkeley and Wiki. 

 

Natural Selection - Berkeley 

 

Wiki - Natural Selection  

 

 

BERKELEY? 

 

 

"Adaptive changes within a given species is natural selection, and also evolution."

 

Natural Selection IS NOT evolution....

 

Dr. John Endler (evolutionist)

 

"A major problem in this subject is that there is a multiplicity of meanings for the same terms, and the same terms mean different things to different people...this often leads to confusion in the literature. Natural Selection must not be equated with evolution, though the two are intimately related."

Endler, John A., Natural Selection in the Wild, Princeton University Press, New Jersey, USA, 1986,. page 8

 

"Natural selection is common enough in natural populations to have been detected in a wide variety of organisms, and strong selection is not as rare as has been previously assumed; natural selection is therefore likely to be important in evolution.  HOWEVER, natural selection does not explain the origin of new variants, only the process of changes in their frequency."

Endler, John A., Natural Selection in the Wild, Princeton University Press, New Jersey, USA, 1986,. page 245

 

 

Peppered Moths:

 

'The experiments beautifully demonstrate natural selection- or the survival of the fittest- in action, but they do not show evolution, for however the populations may alter in their content or light, intermediate or dark forms, all the moths remain from beginning to end Biston betularia.'

L. Harrison, FRS, Introduction to Darwin's Origin of Species J.M. Dent & Sons, London, 1971, p.XI

 

** Note:  The Peppered Moths were a Fraud......

 

"In 25 years we have found only two betularia on the tree (one on an appropriate background and one not), and none elsewhere."

C.A Clarke,  G.S. Mani and G. Wynne, Evolution in reverse: clean air and the peppered moth, Biological Journal of the Linneon Society 26:189-199, 1985;  p. 197

"...dead moths were glued to the tree."

J.A. Coyne, Nature 396(6706):35-36, 1998

[other one]

"After the fallen angels went into the daughters of men, the sons of men taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order to provoke the Lord" The Book of Jasher (4:18).

[Guest]

"After the fallen angels went into the daughters of men, the sons of men taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order to provoke the Lord" The Book of Jasher (4:18).

 

~

 

The Book

 

And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger: 2 Kings 17:11

[gray wolf]

I'm not going to argue here. It serves no purpose just to posture and not learn from each other.

[enoob57]

You cannot make natural selection not exist by waving your hand any more than a nonbeliever can say God doesn't exist to make it so. The evidence is very good. Remember the case of pepper colored moths years ago in England when the dark variety prevailed in response to a new, sooty environment? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution. You have to be in denial not to see the adaptation of organisms to their environments. This is not to remove God from the equation, rather it shows how robust creation is.  Why cannot God use such principles as well as other natural "laws" in the universe?  He has created a universe in which nature is self sustaining through these principles.  Truly extraordinary.

The idea that bad things in nature are a result of the fall is disconcerting. This means some truly awful things are part of design engineered to harm us and other organisms.

 

Had to chime in here .....

 

'Moreover, during phylogenetic organogenesis, natural selection must be capable of foresight. Isn't "choosing" its prime function? But the choice cannot take place without predicting the future role of the incipient organ. Without such prescience, the coordination of successive states is incomprehensible. Did Darwin take this into consideration?'

Pierre Grasse PhD, Evolution of Living Organisms, p.106

 

'We fully understand Darwin's fears and wonder what they would have been, had he been confronted with the anatomical and cytological complexity that is revealed by modern biology; he would have been even more worried had he known that selection cannot create anything on its own.

Pierre Grasse PhD, Evolution of Living Organisms,  p.104-5'

It is the need of focus and where that focus is coming from!

It is the last days and as this is true so also what occurs in the last days with God fulfiling His Word

Dan 12:4

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time

of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

KJV

as this 'IS' our now... what manner of forethought shall be given to your witness above!

As we try to instill life in the dead things= that which is all around us, we cannot for

God has deemed death to 1^stcreation through sin but life in Spirit by The hearing

of the Word and confessing with mouth the life in The Son of God 'Jesus' in complete belief

in birth (His life), death (cross the accepting of our sin toward punishment as His own), resurrection (Spirit

rebirth in man by the putting away sin)! You may say what is this have to do with what I said ^?

It is to this specific - We all men 1^st and 2^nd births can see only the judgment of

God as death in the garment that was once life filled and God's distain in infinite degree for the lie that

comes with the curse of eternal separation of Life that 'IS' in Spirit only! Leaving only the vague and

shadowed sight of the Glory that once there (only witnessed by Adam and wife Eve)... in these shadows we see

as you have said an indicator of that which we cannot see, controlling by beginnings of intrinsical complexity,

an existence and control outside of our sensual perceptions yet while only being sensually percieving in our 1^st

birth arises this simple understanding of the need our Lord had stated

John 3:3

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

KJV

leaving this post and yours indicating the persistent vacuum of loss and need! All in a

demand of the need yet seeing only the incorrect order establish in the dead witness of,

(now testifying of such= entropy), the created thing as being alive and able

to sample from it's forte the essence and meaning of life...

Faith, the unique vehicle outside of man's ability to manipulate, which will take you to the

choice of confirmed belief in either the dead sphere of finite continuance or the eternal

sphere of God's Word and Spirit that 'WAS', 'IS' AND 'WILL BE' 'THE LIFE'...

Love, Steven

[genesisjks]

.   

 

I think after you die if you are not in a state of grace or if you do not accept Jesus you still have a chance of getting in to heaven.

 

No that's not biblical. John chapter 3 says you MUST be born again to enter heaven, and choosing to accept Christ MUST be made in this lifetime.

 

Let’s say there are twenty floors and many rooms on each floor the twentieth floor being where God resides. The basement is hell.

 

No that's not biblical either. Hell is not in the Father's house in heaven. Hell is in a completely different place. Nothing defiled will enter the Father's house. Heaven and hell are two separate places.

 

If a non Christian clothes, feeds, visits people in prison or hospital.  (Leads a good life treating others with respect) It would not be truly just to send them to the same place as murders, rapists ETC.

 

No that's not biblical. Good deeds do not get you into heaven. "Good people" still sin and fall short of God's glory. You MUST be born again of the holy spirit in this lifetime to enter heaven. Sinners will not enter heaven. If you are not born again then you are already condemned by God. (John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.) Your sin and unbelief of who Jesus is sends you to hell, sorry to burst your fantasy bubble however. - DRS81

 

Hi DRS81 peace be with you.  My head is still spinning and I feel that my legs have been cut from under me. But before I reply to you biblical comments I have an issue with the way you replied.  I must say I don’t feel the love in your reply.  (sorry to burst your fantasy bubble. - DRS81) A put down comment like this is far from a Christian reply.  A little advice, think on how Christ would reply,

Anyway to get back to my quote. 

When I see “no that’s not biblical” I just wonder are they reading it without hearts without love.  There is so much more to the New Testament than just words.  When I read it I can feel it, the compassion, the forgiveness, the divine love that oozes out of every page.  The Jesus that I have come to know is everything of the above and then some.  In my opinion the Jesus that I have come to know through the Gospel will not condemn Good people.  This life is a test and if God gave us all the information it would not be much of a test that’s why there are so many different Christian religions and sects.  Who is to say who is right and who is wrong.  Each relationship with Christ is a personal one and if it is right for you well, then its right for you.  I have children and when my birthday comes around they get me presents based on what they think I would like, its not important what they get me but more importantly it’s the thought that goes in to it that counts.

Now if you still insist that it’s not biblical I can quote scripture to back up my opinions, E.G (Proverbs 19:17 Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will reward them for what they have done.)  If I never seen this passage from scripture and others I would still be saying the same thing because some times you have to go along with what you feel is right.  It may not be right for you but that does not mean it’s wrong.  I could quote more passages to support my point of view and I’m sure you could equally respond.  But I refuse to go down that road.  So don’t tell me it is not biblical because you think it’s not you have your opinion and I have mine the difference between us is I wont tell you you’re wrong because I respect your beliefs.  Every person’s relationship with Christ is personal so you should not force your opinion on others.  With regards to being born again I disagree with what you consider born again means. That does not mean that you are wrong it means that my opinion is different.      

With regard to Gods House that was an analogy

Stay in the love & the light.

 

  

[Guest DRS81]

Anyway to get back to my quote. Hi DRS81 peace be with you.  My head is still spinning and I feel that my legs have been cut from under me. But before I reply to you biblical comments I have an issue with the way you replied.  I must say I don’t feel the love in your reply.  (sorry to burst your fantasy bubble. - DRS81) A put down comment like this is far from a Christian reply.  A little advice, think on how Christ would reply,

 

Peace genesis. You're living in a fantasy world if you're believing what you're saying in post 175. I'm sorry, but the truth does hurt sometimes. It's time to wake up is what I'm saying.

 

In my opinion the Jesus that I have come to know through the Gospel will not condemn Good people.

 

It's all good man, but the reality is still the same. You must be born again to go to heaven when you die. Good people that are not born again will go to hell. Good people that are not born again are already condemned because of their unbelief in who Jesus is. (John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.)

 

Now if you still insist that it’s not biblical I can quote scripture to back up my opinions, E.G (Proverbs 19:17 Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will reward them for what they have done.)

 

The whole book of Proverbs are lessons about wisdom. Whether you're (born again or not vs Proverbs) are completely different topics.

 

Every person’s relationship with Christ is personal so you should not force your opinion on others.  With regards to being born again I disagree with what you consider born again means. That does not mean that you are wrong it means that my opinion is different.

 

The only way to have a personal relationship with Christ is to admit you're a sinner and accept Jesus as your savior. It's impossible to have a personal relationship with Christ without the holy spirit. Being born again is having the holy spirit indwell you. Get saved first, THEN follow Jesus. If you're not saved then you're just another Pharisee doing "good deeds".

[genesisjks]

 

 

 

I think after you die if you are not in a state of grace or if you do not accept Jesus you still have a chance of getting in to heaven.  Let me explain.  Jesus said there are many rooms in my father’s house.  So I’ll compare heaven to a house.

Let’s say there are twenty floors and many rooms on each floor the twentieth floor being where God resides. The basement is hell.  Jesus said that John The Baptist was the greatest person on earth but was the least in the kingdom of heaven.  So this leads me to believe that when you die you enter his kingdom on a lower floor. Which floor depends on what sort of life you led.  Let’s say you enter on the left side of the ground floor and before you can go up to the next floor you must progress to the right side and when you go to the next floor you repeat the process.  The R.C Church refers to this as purgatory.  Jesus in Matthew 5: 23 to 26                         

23 "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.  25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. (Prison being purgatory)   

26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

To sum up if you don’t accept Christ you will not enter the penthouse.  But I do think you will be given a chance.  If a non Christian clothes, feeds, visits people in prison or hospital.  (Leads a good life treating others with respect) It would not be truly just to send them to the same place as murders, rapists ETC.  The way I have shown above is the only fair process and if anything Jesus is fair and merciful. In my opinion if it doesn’t make sense there’s something wrong.

 

God Bless stay in the love and the light.

 

Nope.  That is not true.  There is no purgatory, no second chances.   Purgatory is a false teaching and not in the Bible.  

 

The problem with your view is that sin is not something you can pay for.   Jesus died on the cross to pay your sin debt.  To argue that you must go to purgatory to pay that debt yourself tramples the blood of Jesus underfoot and denies the all sufficiency of His sacrifice for sin on the cross.  Purgatory says, "Jesus is not enough."   Your view is simply not the biblical view.

 

 

 

Hi Shilo357 I just quoted Matthew 5:23 to 26 and in my opinion this is the biblical reference to purgatory a place where you atone for your sins.  Jesus is concerned about our souls he is not concerned about us going to court where we may or may not go to prison.  With regard to Purgatory saying Jesus is not enough.  Purgatory is for sinners who have not found Jesus so how it tramples on the blood of Jesus I don’t get that. .

 Jesus died on the cross to pay your sin debt. To argue that you must go to purgatory to pay that debt yourself tramples the blood of Jesus underfoot and denies the all sufficiency of His sacrifice for sin on the cross.

I don’t understand what your point is here.  Are you saying that I don’t have to ask forgiveness for my sins because Jesus already has paid my dept?

 

When I see “no that’s not biblical” I just wonder are they reading it without hearts without love.  There is so much more to the New Testament than just words.  When I read it I can feel it, the compassion, the forgiveness, the divine love that oozes out of every page.  The Jesus that I have come to know is everything of the above and then some.  To be biblical is not just what is written in black and white. Just because it is not your point of view does not mean it is not biblical,

 

Stay in the love & the light.