Jump to content
IGNORED

The Book of Revelation/Past or Future


Guest DRS81

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  62
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  631
  • Content Per Day:  0.15
  • Reputation:   119
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  10/24/2012
  • Status:  Offline

 

Hi BBB, I am back in town. Thanks for your patience. I try not to debate/discuss for long periods. So I'm thinking, we can maybe go two more rounds, and you can take the last word on this discussion (a disccusion which I am greatly enjoying.)

 

So we don't loose track of the disucssion, My position in regards to the OP is that I believe Christ has not come back yet due to a work of judgment (in the sanctuary) that must happen prior to his return. (There may be other factors like the gospel being preached...etc that I have not mentioned for the sake of this discussion only)

Let's continue...

 

no worries, thanks for finally responding.  i always have fun discussing the Bible too.

 

 1)  no. to say it was a literal model of the heavenly sanctuary is extra-biblical.

Now remember, my question was not is the earthly sanctuary a literal model of the heavenly sanctuary. I asked was it a model. Think of it like a model airplane...of course a model airplane cannot fly like a real one...but there are major aspects of a model airplane that looks just like a real airplane. This is the relation of the typical sanctuary and the anti-typical sanctuary.

 

For example...

 

Both the earthly and heavenly sanctuarys have an ark

The tabernacle of the congregation, and the ark of the testimony, and the mercy seat that is thereupon, and all the furniture of the tabernacle. Exodus 31:7

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament...: Rev 11:19

 

Both the earthly and heavenly sanctuarys had a golden altars

And he put the golden altar in the tent of the congregation before the vail: Exodus 40:26

And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. Rev 8:3

 

Both sanctuarys had covering cherubs

And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. Exodus 25:20

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth...Ezekiel 28:14 (Lucifer was one of the cherubs that covered the ark)

 

 

no, not even just a model.  it is simply an Example, a suggestive representation.  this Example is used to create a framework, or a structure, in which God foreshadowed something or someone yet to come.(The Messiah)  THAT was it's purpose.  NOT to represent the heavenlies.

we are in kindergarten, and God even created the toothpicks, glue, and paper mache for us to play with and learn in the sandbox.  God does not dwell in temples made with hands, and the heavens cannot contain Him.

 

any attempt to magnify the bare shadows of the substance which culminated at the Cross, detracts from the meaning and purpose of their institution

BBB, If you think I am magnifying the shadow over the substance...than I have not done a good job making my position clear. My point is that the shadow gives us understanding of what the substance is.

 

 

my point is that the shadows point to Jesus Christ, not a model of the heavens.

 

 i can assure you he isn't cleansing the "heavenly sanctuary" because therein is no sin.  that is inadvertent blasphemy.

confessed sin defiles nothing.  please show me in scripture where the confession of sins defiled the earthly sanctuary, as opposed to the actual sinning.

So we're not chasing our tales here...my premise is not confessed or unconfessed sins. My premise is that the earthy sanctuary was cleansed once a year on the Day of Atonement. This Day of Atonement was also anti-typical in nature thus the writer of Hebrews is making it known that there is a heavenly Day of Atonement.

 

The earthly sanctuary needed cleansing from the uncleaness of Israel

And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. Lev 16:19
 
The heavenly sanctuary will also be cleansed
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. Hebrews 9:23
 
A very simple question is why would the heavenly sanctuary need to be cleansed just like the earthly?

---------

 

what do you mean "will be cleansed"?  besides the record of sin, there is no sin in heaven.  all of which will be burned up and newly created, by the way.  

what exactly does it need to be cleansed of???  that's the even simpler question.

 

it is interesting that when this doctrine begins to falls apart scripturally, it is the moment you are forced to deviate from the so-called model.  i also see you have no intentions of addressing Christ's more excellent ministry as a High Priest of a living and superior Order.

 

the atonement has already been made, "it is finished".  

there will be only one judgement. 

 

show me in scriptures where it plainly says there is an "ongoing judgement" by our High Priest Jesus Christ.

i am still waiting.  if you cannot, then this doctrine is extra-biblical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  7
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  264
  • Content Per Day:  0.04
  • Reputation:   8
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  02/07/2005
  • Status:  Offline

no, not even just a model.  it is simply an Example, a suggestive representation.  

 

Example...Model...Ok...the name of the comparison doesn't concern me as much as our understanding of the comparision. I also use the word Example too.

 

this Example is used to create a framework, or a structure, in which God foreshadowed something or someone yet to come.(The Messiah)  THAT was it's purpose.  NOT to represent the heavenlies.

 

Not exactly...the sanctuary not only forshadowed the coming of Christ, but it forshadowed what Christ would do when he came. This is very important. The earthly sanctuary service told us that when the Messiah would show up he would die for our sins. So the sanctuary showed us the work of Christ. This is the point that I've been trying to make.

The sanctuary is ALL about Christ.

 

I am not separating Christ from the sanctuary as you seem to believe. The sanctuary let's us know we needed the sacrificial lamb but we also need the High Priest. Both are important to our salvation and both are Christ alone.

 

 

my point is that the shadows point to Jesus Christ, not a model of the heavens.

 

Again, I see your point...but I am not separating Christ from his work. If the sanctuary pointed to Christ in his death...then it also points to him after his death which is the ministration of the High Priest.

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hebrews 9:11

If the good things to come were just Christ...then this scripture would read... "But Christ being come a High Priest of 'Christ'...."  Wouldn't you agree that the ministration of Christ is clearly being pointed out by the writer of Hebrews?

 

what do you mean "will be cleansed"?  besides the record of sin, there is no sin in heaven.  all of which will be burned up and newly created, by the way.  

what exactly does it need to be cleansed of???  that's the even simpler question.

We are definitely chasing our tails here! Hahah! I asked you what's being cleansed...and you turn around and ask me what's it being cleansed of! Lol!!!

 

That's my point. If the heavenly sanctuary needs to be purified (Heb 9:23), what else can it be purified from? SIN. I thought you understood my position on this.

What I'm asking you is...if you disagree that sin needs to be purified from the sanctuary in heaven...then I'm asking you for your explanation of what needs to be purified.

 

it is interesting that when this doctrine begins to falls apart scripturally, it is the moment you are forced to deviate from the so-called model.  

 

Huh? Maybe I'm missing something. I clearly stated that the model is not a component-for-component example. (There's not a literal lamb in heaven...there's no real blood in the sanctuary). I'm not sure why you keep refuting a point that I am not trying to make.

 

The Bible is plain. it tells us how to interpret the sanctuary service. It let's us know what's not a component-for-component example. Let me show you...

 

The Bible tells us that there's not a literal lamb

"...Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."  John 1:29 (Well, this tells me that it's not a literal lamb in heaven)

 

The High Priest had to confess his sins, but the Bible tells us that our heavenly High Priest never sinned

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4:15

 

 i also see you have no intentions of addressing Christ's more excellent ministry as a High Priest of a living and superior Order.

 

 I hope it doesn't appear that I am being devisive here...but I considered your point irrelevant to the discussion. I agree that he's a High Priest of a living a superior order...this, to me, is obvious. He is not from the tribe of Levi like Aaron and all the other High Priest, but he doesn't have to be. He was of the Melchisedec order. My premise is not that Christ order is not superior or his ministry not more excellent. I'm just not sure how it negates my point.

 

 

the atonement has already been made, "it is finished".  

there will be only one judgement. 

You're correct. There is only one judgment. You are talking about the exective judgment. I am talking about the reviewing of the names...this is a judgment too.

When Jesus comes back, he will EXECUTE the sentence of judgment...but he will have come to the conculsion of saved and lost prior to his return. This is the judgment that happens in heaven prior to Christ return...so when he comes, the recipients of his reward will have already been determined

 

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:12
 
The determination of who is saved happens in heaven...then Christ comes to execute that judgment when he comes back.
...And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Jude 15-16
 

 

show me in scriptures where it plainly says there is an "ongoing judgement" by our High Priest Jesus Christ.

i am still waiting.

If you are asking me for a scripture that says "Christ is performing a judgment in heaven right now" then we can close this debate, because that scripture doesn't exist. But oftentimes in scripture we don't have a "thou shalt not" for everything. In order to prove the on going judgment, I am taking the work of the High Priest on the typical day of atonement and taking the Bible at it's Word that there's another High Priest that entered the sanctuary and that it was cleansed.

 

If you study the typical Day of Atonement, you will discover it was a day of judgment too.

Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD...For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. Lev 23:27,29
 

There is a cut off before Christ comes back too!

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Rev 22:11

 

The scripture that I have already given you for the judgment was Revelation 14:7 - "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come:..." You simply don't agree because you believe the Gospel is still being preached after Christ comes back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  62
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  631
  • Content Per Day:  0.15
  • Reputation:   119
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  10/24/2012
  • Status:  Offline

 

no, not even just a model.  it is simply an Example, a suggestive representation.  

 

Example...Model...Ok...the name of the comparison doesn't concern me as much as our understanding of the comparision. I also use the word Example too.

 

thank you for your sober response, and please forgive me if i have been out of line.

 

but everything is in a name, and it very much affects our understanding of the comparison.  

there is a model, as in something to be followed in like manner and in varying scale.  and then there is an example, which is more of an analogy, more of a simple use of concepts in order to convey that which cannot be fully understood from our limited viewpoint.

i liken the sanctuary to a parable.

 

there are prototypical imitations, and then there are shadowy suggestive representations.

imo, it is a notable difference.

 

this Example is used to create a framework, or a structure, in which God foreshadowed something or someone yet to come.(The Messiah)  THAT was it's purpose.  NOT to represent the heavenlies.

 

Not exactly...the sanctuary not only forshadowed the coming of Christ, but it forshadowed what Christ would do when he came. This is very important. The earthly sanctuary service told us that when the Messiah would show up he would die for our sins. So the sanctuary showed us the work of Christ. This is the point that I've been trying to make.

The sanctuary is ALL about Christ.

 

I am not separating Christ from the sanctuary as you seem to believe. The sanctuary let's us know we needed the sacrificial lamb but we also need the High Priest. Both are important to our salvation and both are Christ alone.

 

ok, but i am not separating Him from what He did and continues to accomplish either.  of course the sanctuary, just as every example and analogy in scripture, depicts Him and His redemptive work of power.

all i am saying is that it was a picture of His future work, and that His spilled blood fulfilled all these types and shadows.  they were instituted for that purpose.  "it is finished."

 

we have of necessity a High Priest because there is only one mediator between God the Father and man.  we do not have a High Priest because there is any further redemptive work to be done.  agreed?

 

Do you believe the atonement for sins was complete at the Cross? yes or no please.

 

my point is that the shadows point to Jesus Christ, not a model of the heavens.

 

Again, I see your point...but I am not separating Christ from his work. If the sanctuary pointed to Christ in his death...then it also points to him after his death which is the ministration of the High Priest.

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hebrews 9:11

If the good things to come were just Christ...then this scripture would read... "But Christ being come a High Priest of 'Christ'...."  Wouldn't you agree that the ministration of Christ is clearly being pointed out by the writer of Hebrews?

 

neither am i.  glad we cleared that up.

 

but these are the good things to come spoken of:

Heb 9:15  And because of this He is Mediator of a new covenant, so that, death having occurred for redemption of transgressions under the first covenant, those being called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.

Heb 9:16  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 

Heb 9:17  For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 
 

the sanctuary which spoke of and testified to the nature of His redemptive work, all pointed to the Cross.

this is the focus of His ministration.  the new unbreakable covenant which is between the Father and the Son.

 

what do you mean "will be cleansed"?  besides the record of sin, there is no sin in heaven.  all of which will be burned up and newly created, by the way.  

what exactly does it need to be cleansed of???  that's the even simpler question.

We are definitely chasing our tails here! Hahah! I asked you what's being cleansed...and you turn around and ask me what's it being cleansed of! Lol!!!

 

That's my point. If the heavenly sanctuary needs to be purified (Heb 9:23), what else can it be purified from? SIN. I thought you understood my position on this.

What I'm asking you is...if you disagree that sin needs to be purified from the sanctuary in heaven...then I'm asking you for your explanation of what needs to be purified.

 

 

we're not chasing tails.  as i said before you are magnifying the shadows of the substance.

firstly, Heb 9:23 doesn't say the heavenly sanctuary.  it says "the patterns of things in the heavens, but the heavenly things themselves".
 
the temple is You.  the sanctuary is You.  the Holy Place is within You.  The Most Holy place is Within You.  sin needed cleansing in You.  The Word(Jesus) had to circumcise your soul from your spirit, so that you could be reborn. (Heb 4:12)
our spirits have become heavenly by virtue of His purifying Blood.
we have been vivified in spirit, we are being sanctified in soul, and we will be glorified in body.  Jesus Christ is the prototype.
 
this is the powerful EXAMPLE :), or analogy between the physical and the spiritual, earthly and heavenly, Moses and Christ, water and Holy Spirit, the blood of bulls/goats and the Blood of Christ.
there is no sin in heavenly places.

 

the atonement has already been made, "it is finished".  

there will be only one judgement. 

You're correct. There is only one judgment. You are talking about the exective judgment. I am talking about the reviewing of the names...this is a judgment too.

When Jesus comes back, he will EXECUTE the sentence of judgment...but he will have come to the conculsion of saved and lost prior to his return. This is the judgment that happens in heaven prior to Christ return...so when he comes, the recipients of his reward will have already been determined

 

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:12
 
The determination of who is saved happens in heaven...then Christ comes to execute that judgment when he comes back.
...And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Jude 15-16
 
 
 
there is no determination.
your judgement was complete the moment you believed on Jesus Christ's finished work for your salvation.  you will be rewarded in accordance with the measure you have continued believing, tarrying, obeying, abiding in Him, and doing His will.
your name cannot be blotted out of the book of life without a willful and complete apostasy in disbelief.  
in fact, God's sovereignty demands that some habitual sinning believers be delivered to satan for destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved.(1 Cor 5)
 
besides, He is Alpha and Omega, there is no determination.  eternity is timeless.
Rev 22:13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 
 
Jesus knew from the foundations of creation who He would gift with access to the Tree of Life.
He needs not examine His book library.  :laughing: 

 

show me in scriptures where it plainly says there is an "ongoing judgement" by our High Priest Jesus Christ.

i am still waiting.

If you are asking me for a scripture that says "Christ is performing a judgment in heaven right now" then we can close this debate, because that scripture doesn't exist. But oftentimes in scripture we don't have a "thou shalt not" for everything. In order to prove the on going judgment, I am taking the work of the High Priest on the typical day of atonement and taking the Bible at it's Word that there's another High Priest that entered the sanctuary and that it was cleansed.

 

If you study the typical Day of Atonement, you will discover it was a day of judgment too.

Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD...For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. Lev 23:27,29
 

There is a cut off before Christ comes back too!

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Rev 22:11

 

The scripture that I have already given you for the judgment was Revelation 14:7 - "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come:..." You simply don't agree because you believe the Gospel is still being preached after Christ comes back.

 

 

and if you further study the Day Atonement you will discover that for the elect, it and the judgement ceased at the Cross.

 

God bless.

 

 

 
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  7
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  264
  • Content Per Day:  0.04
  • Reputation:   8
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  02/07/2005
  • Status:  Offline

 thank you for your sober response, and please forgive me if i have been out of line.

You have not been out of line. Thanks for the apology, but not necessary.

 

 we have of necessity a High Priest because there is only one mediator between God the Father and man.  we do not have a High Priest because there is any further redemptive work to be done.  agreed?

My position is that the mediation and the redemptive work go hand in hand. Why is Christ mediating? What is there to mediate? Can we be saved without it? Usually mediation happens because two parties don't agree. If God and I don't agree and Christ has to step in to mediate AFTER his death...what does that tell us? The work of mediation is necessary for my salvation.

 

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Hebrews 9:15

 

Jesus knew from the foundations of creation who He would gift with access to the Tree of Life.
He needs not examine His book library.

Well, if your question is...does Christ have to look at the book to determine who is saved...the answer is No.

But clearly God looks at his books which are kept for our benefit and the angels benefit.

 

Again, taking the Bible for what it says - A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. Daniel 7:10

Of course Jesus knows, but I'm taking the Bible for what it says, and it tells me that for the judgment, there will be some books.

 

If you ask any questions I will answer them, but if you provide only statements, I will end the debate here. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for your informative views. I don't agree with everything you stated but I can respect it.

 

Look forward to another debate with you soon. God Bless

 

Do you believe the atonement for sins was complete at the Cross? yes or no please.

Yes. I believe the atonement for sins was complete at the cross but I do not believe atonement for the sinner has been completed.

In other words, Christ sacrifice, satisfied the requirement for sin. There is no need for another sacrifice as his was perfect.However, the believer still must accept Jesus Christ and allow that atonement that has already taken place to be applied to his life.

 

Again, to remain consistent with my position.  I can refer to the earthly sanctuary ONLY when the Bible does.

In other words...I cannot apply part of the earthly sanctuary service to the heavely sanctuary service until the Bible gives me warrant to do so through scripture.

 

Now, speaking of "Atonement". The earthly sanctuary service had a "Day of Atonement".

 

The day of atonement only happened once a year:

And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year...Lev 16:34

 

Now, notice it said ONCE A YEAR. This was the day of the year that the High Priest went into God's presence...the day of atonement.

 

Now look at what Hebrews mentions:

But into the second (Most Holy Place) went the high priest alone once every year,(Day of Atonement) not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people. The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing. Heb 9:7-8

So you understand...I'm not picking and choosing what components of the earthly sanctuary I'm applying...I'm only taking what the Bible is giving me. And clearly it's telling me that Day of Atonement has an anti-typical application.

 

And this is what happened once a year in the typical service:

And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses. Lev 16:34

 

 the temple is You.  the sanctuary is You.  the Holy Place is within You.  The Most Holy place is Within You.  sin needed cleansing

A couple of points/questions

 

1. So Jesus is cleaning sin? What does cleaned sin look like?

 

2. Also, if the temple is me...doesn't that makes me the anti-type. The sanctuary service typified us?

 

3. If the sanctuary is me...then what did John see? And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Rev 11:19

 

BBB, take the Bible at it's Word (no pun intended)...if the Bible says there's a temple in heaven, then believe it is that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Servant
  • Followers:  25
  • Topic Count:  275
  • Topics Per Day:  0.05
  • Content Count:  5,208
  • Content Per Day:  1.00
  • Reputation:   1,893
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/02/2010
  • Status:  Offline

If the book of Revelation was written about what happened in the 1st century, then why do some proclaim this book is about the future in which some scripture hasn't happened yet. If these things were written in the 1st century, all the persecution, if it was that bad back then..then why isn't the world over by now. For example, when Revelation says "the time is near". The time was near in the "1st century" with the battle of Rome. Or does the first half of Revelation talk about the 1st century and the other half about the second coming of Christ? I just got done watching 'The Beast Revelation Identified' DVD. It was really good and very interesting.

 

This theory is based upon the supposition that Revelation was written in the 60s AD when the classic date for it is from around 95 (this is based on the works of Irenaeus, which are widely accepted as authentic and historically legitimate). Taking the view that Revelation was written prior to the sack of Jerusalem by rome in 70 assumes that basically all of Revelation (and one would have to think all of scripture) can be interpreted allegorical in the widest sense of the word.

 

For instance, let's look at the 5th and 6th seals from Revelation 6 (you mentioned the first half of revelation and this is firmly within that): 

 

Rev 6:9  When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 

Rev 6:11  Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. 

 

No problem here yet. There were a lot of Christian martyrs in the 1st century.

 

Rev 6:12  I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 

 

Again, not a huge problem, maybe this happened and simply wasn't recorded in history, earthquakes and celestial phenomenon don't always survive the test of time in the historical record.

 

Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 

Rev 6:14  Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 

 

Now we're getting to a point where you'd have to start considering this as complete allegory. Events of this magnitude would certainly find their way down through history, even if it were local to Israel (which is the claim of a lot of preterists), especially with it being also experienced by a massive Roman army. The Romans were excellent record keepers for that time.

 

Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 

Rev 6:16  and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 

Rev 6:17  For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" 

 

We're truly getting into some earth shattering calamity at this point. The kings of the earth (this has to be more than just Israel as Israel didn't even have a king at this point), the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and free man (sounds like all people to me). We have a vivid description here of things that simply did not take place (also note that it says the day of the wrath of the Lamb has come).

 

So, at this point you have to either sell out on an allegorical interpretation of, at least prophetic, if not all, scripture literally going all of the way back to Genesis 12:7 (Gen 12:7 NKJV  Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." And there he built an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.), as in the preterist interpretation Israel was stripped of the land for eternity and God's promise to Abram was nullified upon the destruction of the Temple by the Romans in 70.

 

The main point here is that if we turn scripture into what preterism turns it into, then you can make it say anything you want.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  62
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  631
  • Content Per Day:  0.15
  • Reputation:   119
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  10/24/2012
  • Status:  Offline

Well, if your question is...does Christ have to look at the book to determine who is saved...the answer is No.

But clearly God looks at his books which are kept for our benefit and the angels benefit.

 

Again, taking the Bible for what it says - A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were openedDaniel 7:10

Of course Jesus knows, but I'm taking the Bible for what it says, and it tells me that for the judgment, there will be some books.

 

 

the books are kept because God requires payment for sin.

where is there even a hint of an OT type where the High Priest is examining books in the Most holy place?

 

 

Yes. I believe the atonement for sins was complete at the cross but I do not believe atonement for the sinner has been completed.

In other words, Christ sacrifice, satisfied the requirement for sin. There is no need for another sacrifice as his was perfect.However, the believer still must accept Jesus Christ and allow that atonement that has already taken place to be applied to his life.

 

well, of course.  2 John 1:9  Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. The one abiding in the doctrine of Christ, this one has the Father and the Son.

 

 

Again, to remain consistent with my position.  I can refer to the earthly sanctuary ONLY when the Bible does.

In other words...I cannot apply part of the earthly sanctuary service to the heavely sanctuary service until the Bible gives me warrant to do so through scripture.

 

Now, speaking of "Atonement". The earthly sanctuary service had a "Day of Atonement".

 

The day of atonement only happened once a year:

And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year...Lev 16:34

 

Now, notice it said ONCE A YEAR. This was the day of the year that the High Priest went into God's presence...the day of atonement.

 

Now look at what Hebrews mentions:

But into the second (Most Holy Place) went the high priest alone once every year,(Day of Atonement) not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people. The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standingHeb 9:7-8

So you understand...I'm not picking and choosing what components of the earthly sanctuary I'm applying...I'm only taking what the Bible is giving me. And clearly it's telling me that Day of Atonement has an anti-typical application.

 

And this is what happened once a year in the typical service:

And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded MosesLev 16:34

 

 

that is exactly what you are doing, because there is no judgement performed by the earthly High Priest.

 

and i am not arguing against an anti-typical application.

Christ's death fulfilled the slaying of the goat.  He rose from the dead, ascended, and took His blood DIRECTLY to the mercy seat.  the entire sanctuary service was based upon sacrifices, which have ceased, and thus the services have ceased.

 

 

A couple of points/questions

 

1. So Jesus is cleaning sin? What does cleaned sin look like?

 

2. Also, if the temple is me...doesn't that makes me the anti-type. The sanctuary service typified us?

 

3. If the sanctuary is me...then what did John see? And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hailRev 11:19

 

BBB, take the Bible at it's Word (no pun intended)...if the Bible says there's a temple in heaven, then believe it is that.

 

1) like sin that's washed away

 

2)  no, the sanctuary service typified Jesus.  The prototype.  The first-born among many brethren.  a temple built with no hands.

the Holy Spirit of God does abide in you if you are abiding in Christ, correct?

 

3)  that is the heavenly sanctuary, where there is no longer goat-slaying.  where did i deny a heavenly sanctuary exists?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  7
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  264
  • Content Per Day:  0.04
  • Reputation:   8
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  02/07/2005
  • Status:  Offline

where is there even a hint of an OT type where the High Priest is examining books in the Most holy place?

The earthly high priest did not review any books (as far as I know). 

 

However, each person did come up in review before God on this day. 

"And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people." Lev 23:28-30

So while the high priest did not open a book, God did review each believer.

 

 

 

2)  no, the sanctuary service typified Jesus.  The prototype.  The first-born among many brethren.  a temple built with no hands.

the Holy Spirit of God does abide in you if you are abiding in Christ, correct?

 

This is correct. We are the temple of the Holy Ghost. However, the writer of Hebrews is clearly talking about the heavenly sanctuary and not our earthly body's.

Notice what Hebrews says - "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." Hebrews 9:24

So....my question is according to Hebrews 9:24, is "heaven itself" us? Or is heaven itself....heaven itself?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  62
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  631
  • Content Per Day:  0.15
  • Reputation:   119
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  10/24/2012
  • Status:  Offline

 

where is there even a hint of an OT type where the High Priest is examining books in the Most holy place?

The earthly high priest did not review any books (as far as I know). 

 

However, each person did come up in review before God on this day. 

"And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people." Lev 23:28-30

So while the high priest did not open a book, God did review each believer.

 

yes, ON the Day of Atonement.  the Final Day of Atonement which that OT Type pointed to.  The same day the sins of the WORLD were judged.  God's TOTAL Wrath was loosed upon His Son for ALL SINS.  by faith in Christ's sacrifice, YOU have been judged INNOCENT.

 

and you are just stretching it now.  if God did the reviewing, then this was not a picture of our High Priest's ministration.

 

 

2)  no, the sanctuary service typified Jesus.  The prototype.  The first-born among many brethren.  a temple built with no hands.

the Holy Spirit of God does abide in you if you are abiding in Christ, correct?

 

This is correct. We are the temple of the Holy Ghost. However, the writer of Hebrews is clearly talking about the heavenly sanctuary and not our earthly body's.

Notice what Hebrews says - "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." Hebrews 9:24

So....my question is according to Hebrews 9:24, is "heaven itself" us? Or is heaven itself....heaven itself?

 

agreed, the heavens themselves.

 

God bless

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  7
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  264
  • Content Per Day:  0.04
  • Reputation:   8
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  02/07/2005
  • Status:  Offline

 

It's been a great discussion with you BBB. I appreciate the lively discussion. Take care. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  62
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  631
  • Content Per Day:  0.15
  • Reputation:   119
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  10/24/2012
  • Status:  Offline

thanks for your time brother, i am edified as well in taking a closer look.  God bless you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...