The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[Salty]

Now if the Church must go through the tribulation, how can that be? That would require that all the dead Christians be raised up before the tribulation just so they can go through it and not miss out. Countless generations of the Church cannot go through the tribulation because they are dead! So how could it be necessary for the Church to go through the trib? Does it not indicate anything to you that the ekklesia is never mentioned on earth in a tribulation passage? It is always Israel and the gentile nations.

So, figure it all out the best you can. I certainly don't consider any brother an enemy for disagreeing with me on the Rapture or the Trib. But I do think it is important to live with the blessed hope that the Lord Jesus could return at any time, even today.

 

I don't hate you because of what you believe either, but I strongly disagree with that premise you made about the Church and asleep saints.

 

Per 1 Thess.4:13-17, Matt.24:31 and Mark 13:27, those Scriptures make a distinction about Christ gathering His Church both from Heaven (asleep saints), and from the earth ("which are alive and remain") within the same timing and joined to Him at His returning.

 

So how can you infer that it's impossible for the Church to go through the great tribulation because of some idea that it would require the "asleep" saints to be raised to go through it? That kind of idea goes directly against those written Scriptures quoted above. How?

 

 

The Asleep Saints That Have Died:

1Thes 4:13-14

13    But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14    For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

(KJV)

 

 

The Alive Saints Still On Earth At Christ's Coming:

1Thes 4:16-17

16    For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(KJV)

 

Even that very 1 Thess.4 Scripture completely debunks the idea some try to use it as one of the biggest proofs that the Church is raptured prior to the tribulation. Paul made a clear distinction between the "asleep" saints that died and the saints "which are alive and remain" unto Christ's coming. Are alive and remain where? On earth!

 

Do the Matt.24 & Mark 13 Scriptures agree with Apostle Paul on that? Yes! Most definitely!

 

 

The Asleep Saints That Died:

Matt 24:29-31

29    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31    And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(KJV)

 

 

The Alive Saints Still On Earth At Christ's Coming:

Mark 13:24-27

24    But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25    And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27    And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

(KJV)

 

[Montana Marv]

 

Now if the Church must go through the tribulation, how can that be? That would require that all the dead Christians be raised up before the tribulation just so they can go through it and not miss out. Countless generations of the Church cannot go through the tribulation because they are dead! So how could it be necessary for the Church to go through the trib? Does it not indicate anything to you that the ekklesia is never mentioned on earth in a tribulation passage? It is always Israel and the gentile nations.

So, figure it all out the best you can. I certainly don't consider any brother an enemy for disagreeing with me on the Rapture or the Trib. But I do think it is important to live with the blessed hope that the Lord Jesus could return at any time, even today.

 

I don't hate you because of what you believe either, but I strongly disagree with that premise you made about the Church and asleep saints.

 

Per 1 Thess.4:13-17, Matt.24:31 and Mark 13:27, those Scriptures make a distinction about Christ gathering His Church both from Heaven (asleep saints), and from the earth ("which are alive and remain") within the same timing and joined to Him at His returning.

 

So how can you infer that it's impossible for the Church to go through the great tribulation because of some idea that it would require the "asleep" saints to be raised to go through it? That kind of idea goes directly against those written Scriptures quoted above. How?

 

 

The Asleep Saints That Have Died:

1Thes 4:13-14

13    But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14    For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

(KJV)

 

Here the Scripture says: and will God bring with Him, here these saints are already in heaven and they are returning with Christ.

 

 

The Alive Saints Still On Earth At Christ's Coming:

1Thes 4:16-17

16    For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(KJV)

 

This describes the event, not the timing of the event.

 

Even that very 1 Thess.4 Scripture completely debunks the idea some try to use it as one of the biggest proofs that the Church is raptured prior to the tribulation. Paul made a clear distinction between the "asleep" saints that died and the saints "which are alive and remain" unto Christ's coming. Are alive and remain where? On earth!

 

And you are not distinguishing between the Bridegroom (he who snatches away his bride), or the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords (who comes to claim His earth and all who live on it).

 

Do the Matt.24 & Mark 13 Scriptures agree with Apostle Paul on that? Yes! Most definitely!

 

 

The Asleep Saints That Died:

Matt 24:29-31

29    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31    And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(KJV)

 

Israel is His elect, the 144,000 are His elect, these are gathered from the four winds - Yet the Church comes from one end of heaven to the other. His Fathers House.  John 14:2-4 (In My Fathers house are many room,, if it were not so I would have told you, I am going there to prepare a place for you. And If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me [in My Fathers house], that you also my be where I am [in My Fathers house]. You know the way to where I am going.

 

 

The Alive Saints Still On Earth At Christ's Coming:

Mark 13:24-27

24    But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25    And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27    And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

(KJV)

 

 

 

Salty

 

My comments is green

 

We are in His Fathers House just before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.  Now one must figure how long we have been there.

 

What Clement has said Chp L - Enter into thy secret chambers for a time, until my wrath and fury pass away and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves.  He mentions Psa 27:5 - In the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion, in the secret of his tabernacle.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

 

Salty

 

My comments is green

 

We are in His Fathers House just before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.  Now one must figure how long we have been there.

 

What Clement has said Chp L - Enter into thy secret chambers for a time, until my wrath and fury pass away and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves.  He mentions Psa 27:5 - In the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion, in the secret of his tabernacle.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Yes, the "asleep" saints are already in Heaven with Jesus. And yes He brings them with Him when He returns, as per the 1 Thess.4 Scripture. That's one group of saints. The other group of saints are still alive and remain on earth, but at the moment of His return He gathers them 'with'... the 'asleep' saints WHILE He is DESCENDING TO JERUSALEM. We who are still alive and remain on earth do NOT go to Heaven, He and His 'asleep' saints are coming here. His coming is on earth to Jerusalem, not back to Heaven.

 

The many mansions of John 14 mean 'abodes'. Those are the abodes of the priests involving the Ezekiel temple of Ezekiel 40 forward, a temple that Christ will bring to earth for His future "thousand years" reign, on earth, reigning with His elect priests (Rev.5:10). The context in John 14 when He said that to His disciples of course means in the Apostle's days those abodes were not yet established on earth, but being prepared in Heaven for the day of Christ's reign as KING of kings and LORD of Lords, i.e., the Millennium "thousand years" of Rev.20. When Jesus returns, those "mansions" (or residences per Greek mone) will be on earth as per the Ezekiel Scripture, along with God's River of the waters of life, and the Tree of Life, all in the New Jerusalem on earth (Ezek.47).

 

In relation to Christ's second coming, the wedding parable of Matt.22, those are bid to the wedding, they are not the bride. They are guests of the Bridegroom and wedding feast. Jerusalem is the Bride per Rev.21:9-10. See also Ezekiel 16 where our Heavenly Father made that association with Jerusalem as His wife. It is also iterated in Isaiah 54.

 

Apostle Paul made no distinction between the believing seed of Israel and believing Gentiles. Both are 'one' in Christ Jesus. With the Matt.24 and Mark 13 examples, Jesus was speaking to His elect disciples while on the Mount of Olives, and... to the elect of the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, i.e., His whole CHURCH. It's men's doctrines that wrongly try to divide the two, and in the Pre-trib Rapture school's case they do that dividing just so they can push their idea of a rapture prior to the tribulation.

 

 

In Matt.24 and Mark 13, Jesus covered the signs of the Seals of Rev.6. The very last sign He covered was His second coming and gathering of His saints. With the Matt.24:31 example, that gathering is about the saints in Heaven being gathered for Christ's coming. Those elect are the 'asleep" saints of 1 Thess.4, gathering from one end of Heaven to the other.

 

Matt.24:31    And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(KJV)

 

 

In the Mark 13:27 version, He gathers the saints (His Church) that is still alive which remain on earth..."from the uttermost part of the earth". That Scripture aligns with the other part of 1 Thess.4 that Paul said the other group of saints will still be alive and remain on earth until Christ's second coming.

 

Mark 13:27    And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

 

 

In BOTH of those Scripture examples, a DIRECT statement of timing... is given by our Lord Jesus when that gathering and His coming will occur...

 

Matt. 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

Mark 13:24    But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Edited June 27, 2014 by Salty

[Montana Marv]

Salty

 

You are mistaken in believing that the Second Coming (the gathering) and the Rapture (being caught up) are the same event, they are not, not even close.  The Rapture is the catching up.  The Second Coming is the positioning of all those still on earth and those up in Heaven to view the Second Coming, for every eye will see Him descending to the Mt of Olives.

 

You are mistaken in believing that the Church is God's Bride, it is not, The Church is Jesus Christ's Bride.  When one reads Hosea, Israel is portrayed as the adulterous wife of God.

 

You are mistaken in believing that those saints still on earth are the(Church), they are not, they are the elect of Israel (the 1/3 who are the refined of Zech 13: 8,9), the 144,000 and peoples from and nations, tribes, tongues who did not receive the mark of the beast or worship him (Rev 7: 13-17).  If one looks closely, they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  We as NT Believers (the Church), have been cleansed (Eph 5:26 - to make her body holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the Word).  Like Ehp 5:25 says ---- "Husbands love your house as Jesus has loved His house Jerusalem".  BTW, The New Jerusalem is adorned as a bride.  It is not the Bride of Christ,  We as NT Believers are His Bride.  We are Raptured up at an unknown time (Only God the Father knows the timing of the Rapture)  The beginning of the 70th Week of Daniel is the only time which we cannot predict - it is unknown)  All other Rapture views can happen in a known time period. 

 

This is why I am pre-Trib, I do not know when the 70th Week of Daniel will start.

 

Being caught up and being gathered are two separate events.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv
 

[Salty]

Salty

 

You are mistaken in believing that the Second Coming (the gathering) and the Rapture (being caught up) are the same event, they are not, not even close.  The Rapture is the catching up.  The Second Coming is the positioning of all those still on earth and those up in Heaven to view the Second Coming, for every eye will see Him descending to the Mt of Olives.

 

You are mistaken in believing that the Church is God's Bride, it is not, The Church is Jesus Christ's Bride.  When one reads Hosea, Israel is portrayed as the adulterous wife of God.

 

You are mistaken in believing that those saints still on earth are the(Church), they are not, they are the elect of Israel (the 1/3 who are the refined of Zech 13: 8,9), the 144,000 and peoples from and nations, tribes, tongues who did not receive the mark of the beast or worship him (Rev 7: 13-17).  If one looks closely, they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  We as NT Believers (the Church), have been cleansed (Eph 5:26 - to make her body holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the Word).  Like Ehp 5:25 says ---- "Husbands love your house as Jesus has loved His house Jerusalem".  BTW, The New Jerusalem is adorned as a bride.  It is not the Bride of Christ,  We as NT Believers are His Bride.  We are Raptured up at an unknown time (Only God the Father knows the timing of the Rapture)  The beginning of the 70th Week of Daniel is the only time which we cannot predict - it is unknown)  All other Rapture views can happen in a known time period.

 

This is why I am pre-Trib, I do not know when the 70th Week of Daniel will start.

 

Being caught up and being gathered are two separate events.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

I most definitely am not mistaken, and those very Scriptures I posted above show you that Christ's gathering of His saints and His coming both occur on the SAME day, after that tribulation He forewarned us of.

 

The subject of the resurrection Apostle Paul covered in 1 Cor.15 in regards to the "last trump" is that same event he covered in 1 Thess.4. It is the same event Jesus covered in Matt.24 and Mark 13 about His coming and the gathering of His saints.

 

John Darby's Dispensationalist idealism of the 1800's began those ideas of Christ's elect of Israel not being part of His Church, when no such idea exists in The New Testament at all. Christ's Apostles with Him upon the Mount of Olives were the very 'foundation' of the Christian Church, those whom He first chose to take The Gospel throughout Israel and to Gentiles, as witnessed in the Book of Acts.

 

The day of Christ's coming is the Day of The LORD. That's what Apostles Paul and Peter taught in 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10, giving the metaphor of Christ coming "as a thief". That also is what Jesus taught His Church in Rev.16:15 on the 6th vial timing.

 

Your affirmations in favour of Darby and et all is not going to change the Scriptures as written, and sadly you make have to find that out the hard way if you don't repent.

 

You mention the OT prophet Hosea being about fallen Israel when I well know you have not even bothered to read the whole Book of Hosea, because Apostle Paul quoted directly from Hosea to GENTILE believers on Christ, including them in the section of Hosea where God reserved His Salvation blessings upon that part of Israel ("house of Israel" specifically, which at that time in history only meant the ten tribes).

Edited June 27, 2014 by Salty

[Montana Marv]

I guess I will have to quote Matt 24: 22, 24 - Therefore keep watch, because we know the exact day our Lord will come.  So no need to be ready, because the Son of Man will come in an hour when you do expect him.   Mid-Trib Rapture, Pre-Wrath, but espically the Post - Trib position.  Eat your heart out.

 

BTW, what do I to Repent from, not believing your  un-encouraging position.  Please encourage each other with the scorching heat, the famines and no food, with 1/3 of the earth being burned up;  Encourage each other with 1/3 of the sea turning to blood, with springs of water turning bitter, that a 1/3 of the moon, stars and sun being struck (turning dark).  Encourage each other by the army from the East killing 1/3 of mankind.  Praise God for all this encouragement.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

I guess I will have to quote Matt 24: 22, 24 - Therefore keep watch, because we know the exact day our Lord will come.  So no need to be ready, because the Son of Man will come in an hour when you do expect him.   Mid-Trib Rapture, Pre-Wrath, but espically the Post - Trib position.  Eat your heart out.

 

BTW, what do I to Repent from, not believing your  un-encouraging position.  Please encourage each other with the scorching heat, the famines and no food, with 1/3 of the earth being burned up;  Encourage each other with 1/3 of the sea turning to blood, with springs of water turning bitter, that a 1/3 of the moon, stars and sun being struck (turning dark).  Encourage each other by the army from the East killing 1/3 of mankind.  Praise God for all this encouragement.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Those of Rev.16:15 which Jesus addressed that He warned for them to keep their 'garments' were believers on Him. The only ones who has... those garments of Salvation already are those who believe on Him and thus have received His Promise of Salvation. It is impossible... for that to apply to anyone outside Christ's Church.

 

Yet the pre-trib rapture school flat denies that Rev.16:15 verse as being a Message to Christ's Church with the Church still not gathered at that point. They instead make up theories that those are "left-behind" Israelites that come to Christ Jesus during the tribulation, i.e., their "tribulation saints" crazy idea, which is speaking out of both sides of their mouth at the same time. Why? Because if they belong to Christ Jesus then they belong to His Church!

 

And there is NO Scripture evidence anywhere in God's Word that Jesus is going to come for only PART of His Church at the gathering to Him at His one-time return. He is coming to gather all His saints to Himself, both from Heaven and from the earth, just as 1 Thess.4 is written, and as Matt.24 and Mark 13 are written.

[Montana Marv]

 

I guess I will have to quote Matt 24: 22, 24 - Therefore keep watch, because we know the exact day our Lord will come.  So no need to be ready, because the Son of Man will come in an hour when you do expect him.   Mid-Trib Rapture, Pre-Wrath, but espically the Post - Trib position.  Eat your heart out.

 

BTW, what do I to Repent from, not believing your  un-encouraging position.  Please encourage each other with the scorching heat, the famines and no food, with 1/3 of the earth being burned up;  Encourage each other with 1/3 of the sea turning to blood, with springs of water turning bitter, that a 1/3 of the moon, stars and sun being struck (turning dark).  Encourage each other by the army from the East killing 1/3 of mankind.  Praise God for all this encouragement.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Those of Rev.16:15 which Jesus addressed that He warned for them to keep their 'garments' were believers on Him. The only ones who has... those garments of Salvation already are those who believe on Him and thus have received His Promise of Salvation. It is impossible... for that to apply to anyone outside Christ's Church.

 

This verse is nestled in between the broadcast for the gathering of the armies for Armageddon and them being gathered at Armageddon.  There is absolutely no reference to the Church in any of these verses.  You are picking things out of thin air.  Making false assumptions. The garments of salvation are not mentioned; being shamefully exposed is in reference to wearing no clothes at all.

 

Yet the pre-trib rapture school flat denies that Rev.16:15 verse as being a Message to Christ's Church with the Church still not gathered at that point. They instead make up theories that those are "left-behind" Israelites that come to Christ Jesus during the tribulation, i.e., their "tribulation saints" crazy idea, which is speaking out of both sides of their mouth at the same time. Why? Because if they belong to Christ Jesus then they belong to His Church!

 

Who said these left behind Israelites come to Christ during the tribulation, they are refined by God.  They don't belong to Christ Jesus until they see the Lord of Lord's and the King of King's descending to the Mt of Olives at His Second Coming.  This is when they believe.  Zech - 12:10 -They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for and only child...  13:1 - On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.  Israel is cleansed after the Second Coming, we are cleansed by the Cross and His blood we we are saved.

 

And there is NO Scripture evidence anywhere in God's Word that Jesus is going to come for only PART of His Church at the gathering to Him at His one-time return. He is coming to gather all His saints to Himself, both from Heaven and from the earth, just as 1 Thess.4 is written, and as Matt.24 and Mark 13 are written.

 

True, He is coming to snatch away His total Bride at one time.  He then, with His Bride will be in His Fathers House for an extended time, While the pearls here on earth unfold.  Rev 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on earth.  If one has not been successfully tested in this lifetime, maybe one will be tested in the days to come.  Not a pleasant time to live under.  Christ is going to test the WHOLE world, no one excluded.  At this present time He is testing and refining His Bride Only.

 

Salty

 

You have no idea what this next seven years will unfold.  Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, but continued to worship demons and idols....  Those on earth did not repent, I would  say,where will that leave those who think they will make it to the end.  Demon and Idol worshipers (the Rest of Mankind)  Good luck on your endeavor of trying to be Christ Like, It will not happen.

 

My comments in green above

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

My rebuttal in BLUE...

 

 

 

Those of Rev.16:15 which Jesus addressed that He warned for them to keep their 'garments' were believers on Him. The only ones who has... those garments of Salvation already are those who believe on Him and thus have received His Promise of Salvation. It is impossible... for that to apply to anyone outside Christ's Church.

 

This verse is nestled in between the broadcast for the gathering of the armies for Armageddon and them being gathered at Armageddon.  There is absolutely no reference to the Church in any of these verses.  You are picking things out of thin air.  Making false assumptions. The garments of salvation are not mentioned; being shamefully exposed is in reference to wearing no clothes at all.

 

Christ is speaking directly... to His Church that's still on earth at that point, because as I have already shown, those He speaks to already have the "garments" of Salvation, meaning they belong to Him, and that means His Church. That point is undeniable, yet thats' what you're trying to do because of a doctrine of men that has trapped you away from the simplicity in these Scriptures.

 

Jesus is warning those of His Church to be careful to keep their "garments", because He says there He comes "as a thief". That is a direct link to the "as a thief in the night" metaphor for the time of Christ's second coming which Apostles Paul and Peter taught, linked with the Day of The LORD timing (see 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10). Both Apostles Paul and Peter only taught that "as a thief" timing to Christ's Church. Clearly our Lord Jesus repeated that to His Church there in Rev.16:15 within prophecy of the 6th vial events unfolding.

 

On the 6th vial timing, it is a preparation time for the final battle of this world, Armageddon. The battle of Armageddon is a Day of The Lord timing event per the Old Testament prophets and per Jesus and His Apostles in The New Testament. It is the "day of Christ" phrase Paul used in 2 Thess.2:2 (the name "Christ" is not in the Greek NT manuscript there at 2 Thess.2:2. The actual word is Greek kurios, which means 'lord'; thus Paul actually said "day of The Lord" in 2 Thess.2:2, pointing to the time of Christ's return and our gathering to Him).

 

In Rev.19, we are shown events linked with the 7th vial of Rev.16 with Jesus' coming to do battle on that day. That is the day of His return and the gathering of His saints. Events of that battle are also linked to the events of Ezekiel 38 & 39, with Ezekiel 40 beginning the same kind of view about the holy Jerusalem that John was shown in Rev.21-22.

 

Yet the pre-trib rapture school flat denies that Rev.16:15 verse as being a Message to Christ's Church with the Church still not gathered at that point. They instead make up theories that those are "left-behind" Israelites that come to Christ Jesus during the tribulation, i.e., their "tribulation saints" crazy idea, which is speaking out of both sides of their mouth at the same time. Why? Because if they belong to Christ Jesus then they belong to His Church!

 

Who said these left behind Israelites come to Christ during the tribulation, they are refined by God.  They don't belong to Christ Jesus until they see the Lord of Lord's and the King of King's descending to the Mt of Olives at His Second Coming.  This is when they believe.  Zech - 12:10 -They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for and only child...  13:1 - On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.  Israel is cleansed after the Second Coming, we are cleansed by the Cross and His blood we we are saved.

 

Once again, as Jesus showed there in Rev.16:15, those already have the "garments" of Salvation making them His, and He is warning them to be careful to keep them. It is a direct warning to His Church on earth to not be deceived, but to remain faithful to Him in waiting for His coming. The idea those are "tribulation saints" and not members of Christ's Body is a teaching among the Pre-trib Rapture doctors, and it is false. That false teaching is one of their theoretical answers for His elect gathered when He comes per the Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scriptures, which they point to Israelites with, and not to Christ's Church (which you have also done in one of your previous posts about those elect of Matt.24 and Mark 13).

 

 

And there is NO Scripture evidence anywhere in God's Word that Jesus is going to come for only PART of His Church at the gathering to Him at His one-time return. He is coming to gather all His saints to Himself, both from Heaven and from the earth, just as 1 Thess.4 is written, and as Matt.24 and Mark 13 are written.

 

True, He is coming to snatch away His total Bride at one time.  He then, with His Bride will be in His Fathers House for an extended time, While the pearls here on earth unfold.  Rev 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on earth.  If one has not been successfully tested in this lifetime, maybe one will be tested in the days to come.  Not a pleasant time to live under.  Christ is going to test the WHOLE world, no one excluded.  At this present time He is testing and refining His Bride Only.

 

Not what God's Word teaches, simply because our Lord Jesus and His Apostles well showed that His coming and our gathering will not occur until the great falling away and the coming Antichrist does his thing on earth first (2 Thess.2). They and our Lord Jesus linked that day of His coming and our gathering to the Day of The LORD which is also given in the OT prophets, even greater defining the events to occur upon His Church for the tribulation. There's actually a section of chapters in Isaiah some Bible scholars call 'The Apocalypse of Isaiah', because they directly parallel the events of the end per Christ's Revelation.

 

In the Rev.3:10 verse, Jesus is speaking to His elect of the Church of Philadelphia, which is also a Message for His elect in the last days. NOTHING is given there about a rapture. Instead, immediately after that verse, Jesus warns them that He is coming, and for them to hold fast what they have so no man take their 'crown'. It's a warning like the one He gave His Church in Rev.16:15 who already have the "garments" of His Salvation. It's an admonishing to 'overcome', because that's what He says to them there.

 

Overcome what for the end? That "hour of temptation". What's that? It is the tribulation time when the pseudo-Christ will appear in Jerusalem, proclaiming himself as God, and demanding the whole world to worship him as God. How is one 'kept' from that hour of temptation? By physical escaping? No. By knowing and understanding Christ's warnings about those events to occur for the tribulation which occurs prior to His coming and our gathering. It's as simple as that. For that to mean a 'rapture' in that Rev.3:10 verse, one would have to ADD that idea, which is what the Pre-trib Rapture doctors do.

 

 

"Salty

 

You have no idea what this next seven years will unfold.  Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, but continued to worship demons and idols....  Those on earth did not repent, I would  say,where will that leave those who think they will make it to the end.  Demon and Idol worshipers (the Rest of Mankind)  Good luck on your endeavor of trying to be Christ Like, It will not happen.

 

My comments in green above

 

In Christ

Montana Marv"

 

 

I know exactly what events in general are to unfold per those prophecies in Daniel, Christ's Olivet Discourse, and His Revelation, and per the New Testament Epistles, and even per the Old Testament prophets. It is not a grand mystery to those who keep the patience of God's Word as written like our Lord Jesus said to His elect of the Church of Philadelphia. My understanding aligns with what the early 1st and 2nd century Church fathers held, simply because they kept that patience in God's Word too, which is how our Heavenly Father and His Son by The Holy Spirit blessed their understanding. A believer on Christ doing that still today will come to the same understanding about the end of days that they had, even before they've even taken time to read what those early Church fathers believed. That's what staying in God's Word instead of heeding the doctrines of men will do for the believer.

 

As for your ignorance about the Rev.9 Scripture, that further shows who you've been listening to. Sounds like that was pulled almost directly from one of Hal Lindsey's junk books designed to support the Pre-trib Rapture theories. I don't know if it was you or not, but I covered those Rev.9 points on another thread on this forum.

Rev 9:18-21
18    By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19    For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20    And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21    Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
(KJV)

 

If you had properly understood the first part Rev.9 about those not 'sealed' with God's seal not being allowed to be killed, then you would have known that killing is about a spiritual death, and not a literal physical death. The power the locusts have is in their MOUTHS, not with literal swords or military equipment (like Hal Lindsey and the Pre-trib Rapture school thinks).

[Montana Marv]

First part of Rev 9 is about the 5th Trumpet (locust creatures from the abyss)...  The last half of Rev 9 is about the 6th Trumpet (army from the East), killing 1/3 of mankind..  v20 - These rest of mankind did not stop worshiping demons and idols.  Scripture and literal.

 

Having Gods seal on their forehead are the 144,000 (Rev 7: 3,4), only means the locust like creatures cannot harm them.  It does not state what state of mind they are in.  Yes these 144,000 are most likely demon and idol worshipers also.  For these 144,000 are not sealed for what they do during the Tribulation, but for what they do during the Mill.  They follow the Lamb, and they sing a new song. (During the Mill).  They are witnesses to God's Greatness and Loving Forgiving Kindness.

 

Being sealed and coming to know the Lord may take years and sometimes decades.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv