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The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?


Sandyz

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Salty,

 

The disciples upon the Mount of Olives were apart of Israel, God`s elect. The Body of Christ had not yet come into being. Remember it was the Apostle Paul who was shown concerning this new group - the second group of  `called out ones,` the Body of Christ. Also remember that the disciples there with Christ were concerned about Christ restoring the kingdom to them, Israel.

 

 ` Lord is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?` (Acts 1: 6)

 

You need to read carefully the scriptures, Salty, for you are muddling up different groups & times.

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Salty,

 

The disciples upon the Mount of Olives were apart of Israel, God`s elect. The Body of Christ had not yet come into being. Remember it was the Apostle Paul who was shown concerning this new group - the second group of  `called out ones,` the Body of Christ. Also remember that the disciples there with Christ were concerned about Christ restoring the kingdom to them, Israel.

 

 ` Lord is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?` (Acts 1: 6)

 

You need to read carefully the scriptures, Salty, for you are muddling up different groups & times.

 

Jesus gave 7 signs in His Olivet Discourse while upon the Mount of Olives. And those signs DIRECTLY  parallel the seven Seals of Rev.6, which He gave to WHOM? To His Body, to the seven CHURCHES in Asia to be exact!

 

It's you that is following the same myth as the Pre-trib Rapture school on that.

 

Moreover, that's not what your 'attack' upon me was about. You made the false claim that I didn't recognize God's Israel as His elect.

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No attack, Salty,

 

Just discussing God`s word. Try not to take things too personally as no one here is out to get any one else. We all have different views & details but it is our joy to study & listen to each other. I learn lots here & appreciate when people, although with different views, do speak with the right attitude.

 

There are many more opportunities to post threads so perhaps on one of those we may find that we agree on some things.

 

Blessings, brother, Marilyn.

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No attack, Salty,

 

Just discussing God`s word. Try not to take things too personally as no one here is out to get any one else. We all have different views & details but it is our joy to study & listen to each other. I learn lots here & appreciate when people, although with different views, do speak with the right attitude.

 

There are many more opportunities to post threads so perhaps on one of those we may find that we agree on some things.

 

Blessings, brother, Marilyn.

 

I really don't see how it's possible for us to agree on much because of your attitude in the post where you made a false accusation against me, other than believing on our Heavenly Father and His Son. When you say things to me like I need to apologize to a brother for something I'm not guilty of, and you accuse me in front of the brethren, I take that seriously and not as a joke or kidding around. So if you can't take my 'rebuke' for doing that, then that's not my problem. Do I forgive you for doing that? Yes, it's always better to forgive, but forgetting is another matter entirely.

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Salty,

 

The disciples upon the Mount of Olives were apart of Israel, God`s elect. The Body of Christ had not yet come into being. Remember it was the Apostle Paul who was shown concerning this new group - the second group of  `called out ones,` the Body of Christ. Also remember that the disciples there with Christ were concerned about Christ restoring the kingdom to them, Israel.

 

 ` Lord is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?` (Acts 1: 6)

 

You need to read carefully the scriptures, Salty, for you are muddling up different groups & times.

 

Jesus gave 7 signs in His Olivet Discourse while upon the Mount of Olives. And those signs DIRECTLY  parallel the seven Seals of Rev.6, which He gave to WHOM? To His Body, to the seven CHURCHES in Asia to be exact!

 

It's you that is following the same myth as the Pre-trib Rapture school on that.

 

Moreover, that's not what your 'attack' upon me was about. You made the false claim that I didn't recognize God's Israel as His elect.

 

Slow down, Salty!  These seven churches were JEWISH churches! And they died out.  The Olivet discourse was given to Jewish men about the end of THEIR age. Sorry, but there is nothing there for the body of Christ...EXCEPT for those left behind who will suffer through the 70th week until they lose their head.

 

LAMAD

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Hi Salty,

 

You seem to have a short memory regarding what you said about the ELECT.  You said on post #66

 

`I`ll stop there, because if I kept going I`d have to practically quote about 1/4 of God`s word on how Christ`s ELECT means His church....`

 

Montana Marv & I showed you from scripture how Israel is also God`s ELECT. I think you need to apologise & brush up on your study.

 

It appears to be the opposite case of what you say.

 

My response to him was how he was wrongly treating the "very elect" of Matt.24:24 as NOT applying to His Church. I well know that God's Israel is His elect, and also that Christ's Church are His elect, but I don't differentiate between ANY believer on Christ's Jesus that makes up part of His many-membered Body. Those upon the Mount of Olives with Him were part of His Church; that's who He was speaking those things to.

 

But the Pre-trib Rapture school does differentiate between the elect of Israel and the elect of Christ's Church, which is why they wrongly teach those signs Jesus gave upon the Mount of Olives only apply to Israel, and not... to Christ's Church (so they can disregard those verses there about the tribulation and His coming to gather them AFTER that tribulation).

 

So I think it's YOU that needs to make an apology for twisting my words around to say something I am not.

 

Please give us some examples of things in the Olivet Discourse that you believe pertain to the church - and we can discuss them.  Those who heard his discussion on the Mt. of Olives were not a part of "the church" because the body of Christ had not yet been formed.  It would not be formed until after Jesus rose from the dead.  Remember, they asked Jesus about His coming and the end of the age. It is truth: the last 7 years before His coming in splendor and glory to set up His earthly kingdom - the only coming they knew about -  will be the 70th week of DANIEL, and is specifically for ISRAEL, not the church.

 

However, in the discourse Jesus DID cover the time begining with where they were, through the church age, and up to the end - but from the perspective of ISRAEL, not the church.

 

LAMAD

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First part of Rev 9 is about the 5th Trumpet (locust creatures from the abyss)...  The last half of Rev 9 is about the 6th Trumpet (army from the East), killing 1/3 of mankind..  v20 - These rest of mankind did not stop worshiping demons and idols.  Scripture and literal.

 

Having Gods seal on their forehead are the 144,000 (Rev 7: 3,4), only means the locust like creatures cannot harm them.  It does not state what state of mind they are in.  Yes these 144,000 are most likely demon and idol worshipers also.  For these 144,000 are not sealed for what they do during the Tribulation, but for what they do during the Mill.  They follow the Lamb, and they sing a new song. (During the Mill).  They are witnesses to God's Greatness and Loving Forgiving Kindness.

 

Being sealed and coming to know the Lord may take years and sometimes decades.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

This has got to "take the cake" as the absolutely silliest post I have ever seen on a Christian forum. Did you never read WHO THEY WERE in Chapter 14? They were VIRGINS meaning they worshiped GOD ALONE. And there is nothing ANYWHERE in the bible that says these do anything during the 1000 year reign of Christ. In fact, they are caught up to heaven at the midpoint of the 70th week as FIRSTFRUITS. Certainly they will be worshiping God throughout the millennium, as will the Bride of Christ also and ALL who are in heaven.

 

I suspect when they see the rapture, or the affects of the rapture (the first event of the 6th seal) they realize that Jesus IS their Messiah, and they turn to Jesus at that time. They are then sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments and are then caught up to heaven at the midpoint of the week.

 

 

LAMAD

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`But you brethren, are not in darkness that the day should overtake you like a thief: for you are all the sons of light....`  (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)

let's take this verse in CONTEXT. What is Paul really saying in chapter 5?

 

First there is a SUDDENLY coming, at a time when people are saying and living "peace and safety." It will be a time quite like TODAY.

 

What is this "suddenly?" What is this sudden event that comes as a thief in the night? Of course it is the RAPTURE of the church, starting with the dead in Christ. When God raises those who have died in Christ, it will cause a great, worldwide earthquake, for the dead in Christ are indeed around the world. This great earthquake is Paul's "sudden destruction." (See Matthew 27: "the earth did quake ...and the graves were opened.)

 

So at this SUDDENLY - this sudden catching up of the dead in Christ and then those alive -  TWO groups of people get two different results: first those who are in Christ get "salvation" [rapture] and get to "live together with Him." (So shall we ever be with the Lord.) Then those living in darkness get sudden destruction. The saints will not get this sudden destruction which will come upon ALL - simply because they will be CAUGHT UP. Those left behind will face God's wrath, but those raptured will have NO APPOINTMENT with His wrath.

 

1) SUDDENLY - dead in Christ rise

2) world wide earthquake begins

3) Those alive and in Christ are caught up before the earthquake catches them.

4) The terrible earthquake catches all those left behind AS A SNARE.

 

LAMAD

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First part of Rev 9 is about the 5th Trumpet (locust creatures from the abyss)...  The last half of Rev 9 is about the 6th Trumpet (army from the East), killing 1/3 of mankind..  v20 - These rest of mankind did not stop worshiping demons and idols.  Scripture and literal.

 

Having Gods seal on their forehead are the 144,000 (Rev 7: 3,4), only means the locust like creatures cannot harm them.  It does not state what state of mind they are in.  Yes these 144,000 are most likely demon and idol worshipers also.  For these 144,000 are not sealed for what they do during the Tribulation, but for what they do during the Mill.  They follow the Lamb, and they sing a new song. (During the Mill).  They are witnesses to God's Greatness and Loving Forgiving Kindness.

 

Being sealed and coming to know the Lord may take years and sometimes decades.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Like I said, you have not properly understood that Rev.9 Scripture. The locusts is a metaphor for certain men, "a nation"; our Lord first covered it back in the OT Book of Joel.

 

Per Rev.9, it is those who are NOT sealed with God's seal that cannot be killed. You've got it backwards.

Rev 9:3-5

3    And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4    And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5    And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

(KJV)

 

The 144,000 of Rev.7 are sealed with God's sealing (the "great multitude" is included by inference). They can be killed during the tribulation (5th Seal of Rev.6). It's the ones NOT sealed with God's seal that cannot be killed by those locusts.

 

The 6th trumpet - 2nd woe starting signals the start of the "great tribulation". That army there is STILL a part of the locusts symbology given in the first part of the chapter. In Joel 2 God called those locusts "My great army which I sent among you." It's about Satan's servants on earth who take control over all nations and peoples for the tribulation. It is NOT... about a literal military army. God uses the symbols of an army to show how they destroy SPIRITUALLY. That's why the later Rev.9 Scripture about that army says this about where their power is...

 

Rev 9:17-19

17    And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18    By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

19    For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

(KJV)

 

What comes out of one's mouth? Words. This locust army are not real locusts, they are men. They are not a real military army, but they operate like one. Their power is not with military weapons, their power is in their mouths using words that kill spiritually, causing spiritual deception. When the Antichrist comes, they will be working along side him, to deceive the whole world into worshiping him instead of waiting on Christ Jesus to come.

 

Another way we can know that timing on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe is tribulation timing and not a literal war (which those like Hal Lindsey think) is by what Jesus forewarned about war in Matt.24. He said we will hear of wars and rumours of wars, but... what? That last part of that the Pre-trib Rapture doctors leave out of what Jesus said. He said to not be troubled, for those things must happen, BUT "the end is not yet." What did He mean by that?

 

It's simple. As long as wars and rumours of wars are going on, then the very end is not yet (i.e., the tribulation timing). What's the opposite of wars kind of time? A time of peace (and there is no real peace).

 

Per the Book of Daniel about the coming false one, he is to cause craft to prosper in his hand, and will destroy many using 'peace'. In 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul forewarned that when the deceived will say, "Peace and safety", then... sudden destruction will come upon them. That time of "Peace and safety" is the "great tribulation" time, because the majority of the world will be deceived into believing the Antichrist is God having returned. This is how we as believers on Christ Jesus will be the main target of persecution in that time here on earth, because Christ's elect will NOT bow in worship to the coming Antichrist, just as Daniel and his fellows refused to bow in worship of the gold idol Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon setup.

 

So the Pre-trib Rapture doctors and their published students (like Hal Lindsey) have got the Rev.9 locust army metaphor all wrong. It is not about a literal war with military weapons. It is about a spiritual war, the kind that's been going on since that old serpent in God's Garden, only for the tribulation, the very end of this world, that spiritual war will be advanced more than any other time in this world's history. And the Antichrist establishing world peace will be one of the ways they deceive the majority.

 

What war then do those like Hal Lindsey and the Pre-trib Rapture school confuse this Rev.9 event with? They confuse it with the battle on the last 'day' of this present world, when Jesus returns to fight Satan's hosts on earth at the battle of Armageddon. That's the battle the Pre-trib Rapture school has confused with this spiritual type battle with the locust army of Rev.9. With Armageddon, real military armies will come upon Israel to destroy on the last day of this world. But that is not 6th trumpet - 2nd Woe timing. Armageddon is 7th Vial, 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing.

 

That tribulation time has been shortened by Christ for our sake (Matt.24:22). It is no longer 7 years like the Daniel layout. The events will still occur per the Daniel layout, but compressed. Christ shortened it. And He told you how long if you paid attention in His Word (but I will not reveal it to you, but I will tell you it's right in front of you).

 

 

Deeper for those interested:

 

Rev.9:19 reveals the locust army's power is in their mouths, and also in their "tails". That is pointing directly back to the first part of the Rev.9 chapter with the description of the locust's stinging those not sealed with God's seal. We are told their sting and torment is as a scorpion upon the earth for five months.

 

Since God is using the locust as a metaphor for men which their power is in their mouths, then how does the scorpion tails as a metaphor apply to those locusts as men?

 

It's about spiritual deception: and the way a real scorpion on earth attacks its prey is the symbolic method God is using to get His Message across. So it helps to understand how a real scorpion attacks and devours its prey. The main difference to keep in mind is that God uses the scorpion there in Rev.9 as a metaphor for how those men deceive. That's what that 'stinging' upon those NOT sealed with His seal is about.

 

The Stinging - a real scorpion stings its prey with its tail, numbing the victim. Since the scorpion has no digestive system, it uses the victim's insides. The scorpion regurgitates a fluid into its victim which acts like an acid, turning the victim's insides to mush. Then the scorpion sucks it back up as food. God used the way the scorpion attacks and devours its prey to show how those locusts (men) will work upon the earth upon the deceived. THAT... is how those locusts will kill (spiritually) a third part of men. The rest of the men that were not killed by those plagues represent another third of men, not Christ's elect. In Zechariah we were shown two parts will be cut off and die, with one third brought through the fire to be refined and tried that will call on God's Name and saved.

 

In the Book of Joel God refers to the way real locusts work to describe how those men will operate upon His people for the end of days. That's why it's important to go slow in His Word and catch these kind of metaphors and symbols He uses from natural things of His creation. And that is especially important in His Book of Revelation because there are so many of them.

 

Sorry, NO METAPHOR!

 

Why do you think these verses are meant to be spiritualized? Why not just believe them as written? There will come little beasties that will sting like scorpions, exceedingly painful! It is JUDGMENT. These things will happen because God wants them to happen. They come as punishment for sin and rejection of Jesus Christ. Too bad, but even those believers who are left behind will be punished. ONLY those 144,000 will be free from these stings.

 

It is NOT written that these little beasties that sting will kill a third of mankind. That is a DIFFERENT judgment. When the 6th trumpet comes, 1/3 of the people will die PHYSICALLY.  Did you not read how during the Day of the Lord God will destroy the world and the sinners IN the world? Killing 1/3 in one judgment is a good beginning.

 

It is NOT the "tribulation time" that is shortened. OF COURSE the 70th week will still be 1260 days plus 1260 days long. That is "written in stone," so to speak and will not be changed. What will be changed? During the last half of the 70th week, there will be DAYS of great tribulation. It is "those days" of "great tribulation" that will be shortened. In other words, even though the Beast will be given his 42 months of authority, he will not be able to continue the days of Great Tribulation for the entire 42 months. Once God pours out the vials of His wrath, the Beast will be rendered HELPLESS - so no more days of great tribulation.

 

LAMAD

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Lamad maybe you can tell me which resurrection the church will be raptured with.  

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