UndecidedFrog Posted December 13, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 13, 2004 Dear John3;16, This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. Thank you for your response. I would like to communicate clearly here with you so that you can understand where I am. I believe you are suffering from an identity crisis, you are a son of the King and your walking around in a defeated life You may believe anything you like. That does not make it true. I do not suffer from any identity crisis. I know very well who I am. I am no son of any king. I can trace my ancestry to poor fishermen. I certainly do not walk around in a defeated life. My life is very good, and has been victorious to date. From an objective perspective, my life has been great. Another revealing fact is that you have read through the bible several times, someone who is not a Christian would not do this, he would have no interest in the things of the Lord, much less His Word, and the last clue, you converse with Christians on W.B. if you were not a Christian you would not post here Yes, I have read the bible many times in several versions. I also read other holy books, the quran and philosophies such as Taoism, Buddhism, etc. I do this because I am a student of life. Comparative religious studies is one of my interests. I know of many non-christians reading the bible. Lastly, I converse with many different people on several different boards. Worthy boards is predominantly christian, however, other boards have people of other beliefs. I post on several boards, without having to belong to the predominant belief of the board. I do ask the moderators if an unbeliever was welcome to post, and the usual answer was affirmative. Do not think that I wish to become a christian just because I post on a christian board. This reminds me of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3;16 Posted December 15, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 274 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/09/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/16/1955 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Undecided frog Yes, I have read the bible many times in several versions. I also read other holy books, the quran and philosophies such as Taoism, Buddhism, etc. I do this because I am a student of life. Comparative religious studies is one of my interests. I know of many non-christians reading the bible So do you accept all writings of quran, Buddhism, ect, on the same level as the bible?, it would be impossible to combine teachings from all these, when they are vastly different, and contradictory. You say you do this because you are a student of life, aren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted December 15, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 15, 2004 Dear John3;16, This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. Thank you for your response. You ask more questions, which I shall try to answer: So do you accept all writings of quran, Buddhism, ect, on the same level as the bible? Yes and no. Yes, I consider all writing of the Quran, Torah, Taoist text on a similar level, in that they all contain some truth, some exaggerations, some plain uninterpretable nonsense, and some dangerous ideas. No, I do not consider any one in particular being completely correct. Hence, I cannot accept any of them on the level one would consider entirely true. aren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3;16 Posted December 17, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 274 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/09/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/16/1955 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Undecided Frog Yes, I consider all writing of the Quran, Torah, Taoist text on a similar level, in that they all contain some truth, some exaggerations, some plain uninterpretable nonsense, and some dangerous ideas. It is true that people have misused the word of God and religion, to deceive, mislead, murder, persecute, it was prophesied in scripture that many false Christ would arise, and in the last days one who is referred to as the man of sin, the anti-christ would rise and deceive if it were possible even the very elect, there have been some 50 million Christians who have been martyred for there faith, and this continues even today around the world, mostly by those who use the quran to justify thier persecutions and murders of the unbelievers, the Roman Catholic church is also guilty of such atrocities in her history. You shall know them by there fruit, No, I do not consider any one in particular being completely correct. Hence, I cannot accept any of them on the level one would consider entirely true. The bible is one third prophesy, and over a thousand prophesies have been shown to have been fulfilled, how about the prophesy of the coming of Messiah by Daniel, as prophesied, 490 years later Jesus entered Jerusalem. No other book is even a shadow of the bible. QUOTE aren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted December 17, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 17, 2004 Dear John3;16, This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. Thank you for your response. You shall know them by there fruit Yes, I shall know them by how they behave. The problem is that when they behave poorly, their belief disavows them as not being true followers. Go figure. do you not believe in a creator? Do you mean a deity? No, I do not believe in any deities. there were many reasons these were not included I'm sure there are many reasons. My point was that if the bible has changed over time, it certainly wasn't perfect in its original version. Regards, UndecidedFrog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3;16 Posted December 18, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 274 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/09/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/16/1955 Share Posted December 18, 2004 Undiced Frog Do you mean a deity? No, I do not believe in any deities. It takes less faith to believe in a deity, than one who can create, but have no control over creation, here are a few questions that you need to consider If you believe in a creator, then did he create the earth? Or the universe? Was he not aware of disease, or the effects of our surroundings, microbes, environment, ect, all things that cause degeneration, if he generated it, was he unable to give it sustainable life? How would he have been generated? Or did he always exist? The laws of the universe state that matter cannot be created nor destroyed, how can matter exist then, if it is not created? How can energy exist without some force? You recognize the order that exist in this universe, and the design of life, or you would not have concluded the existence of a creator, the universe declares his works, whether through a microscope, a telescope, or any one of our senses. QUOTE there were many reasons these were not included I'm sure there are many reasons. My point was that if the bible has changed over time, it certainly wasn't perfect in its original version. The bible has not changed, the 66 books that were excepted by the early church, and those who were in position of authority over the church, excepted this as inspired, men such as Jerome, Augustine, Polycarp,(who was a disciple of the Apostle John ) Justin Martyr, ect, many manuscripts of these men remain and attest to there acceptance of the these volumes as the word of God. The cannon or list only included these (66) books only until the fifteenth century when the Roman Catholic church accepted the others, just as the Mormon church has accepted other writings as the word of God, both are in error. If you find the time Josh Mcdowell's book "The New Evidence That demand a Verdict" does just that, I believe proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the bible we have today was accepted by the early Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted December 24, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 24, 2004 Dear John3;16, This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. Thank you for your puzzling response. It takes less faith to believe in a deity, than one who can create, but have no control over creation, here are a few questions that you need to consider I do not understand how you can think that it takes any "faith" to be an atheist. I do not understand how you can think that it takes MORE "faith" to be an atheist than a christian. "Faith" is the will to believe without evidence. Atheists do not believe in any god/s. Atheists have no faith in gods. So, you will understand my puzzlement by your claim that atheists must have more faith than christians. I do not believe in a creator or even a group of creators. When you provide the things in our world, I cannot make the same conclusion as you do, and say, "Yep, I don't know how this came to be, so god(s) musta done it." There are many things humans do not know at the present time. There were many things that humans did not know in the past that they previously attributed to god(s). Thanks for sharing. UndecidedFrog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3;16 Posted December 25, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 274 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/09/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/16/1955 Share Posted December 25, 2004 Undecided Frog do you not believe in a creator? Do you mean a deity? No, I do not believe in any deities. I apoligize, I read something into your responce that was not apparantly there, when you emphasized deity, I assumed you were allowing for a type of creator, and acknowledging Intellingent design. and thus I believed that you were more agnostic than atheists, guess thats what happens when you assume. The reason you do not believe in God is the one thing required to believe in God, and that one thing is faith, it always takes a degree of faith, and even though the Lord walked upon this earth and fulfilled many prophesies, and performed many miracles, he was neither the less, rejected, and killed as prophesied. Romans|10:17 So then faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted December 25, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 25, 2004 Dear John3;16, This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. Thank you for your response. The reason you do not believe in God is the one thing required to believe in God, and that one thing is faith, it always takes a degree of faith Yes John, I agree with this statement. I do not have faith. It seems irrational to me to be required to believe in something without evidence before believing in that same something in earnest. It sounds so circular to me, and reminds me of the process of how many people are caught up in various cultish beliefs. Forgive me, but I guess I do not have that degree of faith. Regards, UndecidedFrog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchman Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 15 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 66 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 69 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/15/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 12, 2005 Wow, what happened to the thread about JW doctrine? I want to address the original question about what the JW's believe and yet keep it brief. 1. Jehovah God is not a Trinity 2. The doctrine of the Trinity is inspired by Satan 3. Jesus Christ is a created being, who at one time did not exist (a.k.a.Michael the archangel) 4. The Holy Spirit is not a person but is "God's active force" i.e. gravity, electricity etc. 5. Heaven is only for select Jehovah's Witnesses 6. Heaven is limited only to 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses 7. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true Christians 8. There is no eternal torment (Hell is just the grave) 9. There is no life after death (except for the 144,000) 10. Salvation is by good works not by Grace 11. You cannot be sure of salvation 12. Jesus is not to be worshiped or prayed to 13. Jesus did not rise from the dead bodily but as a spirit being 14. The second coming occurred in 1914 (only known to Jehovah's Witnesses) 15. The "first resurrection" occurred in 1918 16. All pastors are the "Antichrist" 17. All churches are of Satan 18. All governments are controlled by Satan 19. You cannot take a blood transfusion 20. You cannot support your country 21. You cannot salute the flag, stand for the national anthem, or own a flag 22. You cannot serve in the military 23. You cannot buy Girl Scout cookies 24. You must attend five meetings per week 25. You must go from door to door weekly to gain converts 25. You are discouraged from attending college 26. You cannot marry a non-Jehovah's Witness 27. If one does not follow the rules of the Watchtower they will be shunned 28. You cannot join any clubs or sports teams 29. You cannot be a cheerleader 30. You cannot celebrate any holidays (Christmas, Easter, etc.) 31. You cannot celebrate your birthday 32. You cannot vote in any political campaign 33. You cannot hold public office 34. You cannot serve on a jury 35. You are discouraged from giving to charity (except Watchtower causes) 36. You cannot speak to former members who are shunned (disfellowshipped) 37. You cannot accept Christmas gifts 38. You must read and study Watchtower literature regularly 39. Only Jehovah's Witnesses can understand the Bible 40. Angels direct the Watchtower organization 41. Jesus did not die on a cross but an upright pole 42. You cannot own or wear a cross 43. You must report your witnessing activity to the elders 45. You cannot have friends who are not Jehovah's Witnesses 46. You must refer to all Jehovah's Witnesses as "brother" or "sister" 47. Only approved sexual practices are allowed in marriage 48. You cannot understand the Bible without Watchtower literature to explain it 49. A child abuser is reported to Watchtower elders and not the police 50. You must forgo vacations to attend annual conventions 51. You are discouraged from buying a two door car 52. Men must wear short hair 53. Men cannot wear beards 54. Women cannot pray in the presence of men without a hat 55. You cannot have a tattoo 56. You cannot use tobacco products 57. If you see another Jehovah's Witness breaking the rules you must turn them in to the elders 58. You must appear before a Judicial committee if you are caught breaking Watchtower rules (Secret files are kept on all members which record these meetings (they are never destroyed) 59. You must not own wind-chimes (they are for chasing away spirits)* 60. You cannot read any anti-Jehovah's Witness material 61. You cannot use pet foods made with blood 62. You cannot read Christian literature from a Christian book store 63. You cannot wear jade jewelry* 64. You cannot purchase Christian products (plaques, pictures etc.) 65. You cannot wear any Christian jewelry 66. Jehovah's Witness meeting places have no windows 67. You cannot play chess* 68. Jesus could have sinned and failed in his mission 69. Jesus was not born the savior but became the savior at his baptism 70. The Watchtower organization is God's prophet on earth today 71. Women must submit to Watchtower elders 79. God is not omniscient "all knowing" 80. God is not omnipresent 81. God only speaks through the "Governing Body" in Brooklyn, New York 82. The Holy Spirit is only for select Jehovah's Witnesses 83. The Lord's supper is only to be eaten by select Jehovah's Witnesses (144,000 group) 84. The Lord's supper can only be offered once per year 85. 99.99% of Jehovah's Witnesses are forbidden from taking the Lord's supper 86. Only faithful Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon 87. If you have a non-Witness spouse your first loyalty is to the elders over your spouse 88. Jesus was equal to Adam (just a man) 89. Judgment day is 1000 years long 90. If you leave Jehovah's Witnesses or are expelled from the organization you will not be resurrected 91. Only Jehovah's Witness prayers are heard by God 92. Man's salvation is secondary in God's plan; Jesus was sent to "vindicate Jehovah's name" 93. God will destroy all non-Jehovah's Witnesses at Armageddon 94. Your hope is to live on a paradise earth forever 95. You must never enter a church building 96. You must never attend a church service 97. You cannot be involved in martial arts, boxing or wrestling 98. You cannot participate in a school play 99. You cannot donate blood or your organs when you die 100. You can never question what is printed in Watchtower literature 10l. You are forbidden to attend a funeral of an ex-Jehovah's Witness There is more, but this should suffice for now. ........... uh, did I say "brief?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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