Hebrew Scholar Affirms YEC and Other parts of Genesis

[nebula]

Shiloh, I still believe the best study you have ever given on Genesis 1 was in looking for the spiritual meaning and significance to the passage.

 

Trying to interpet Genesis 1 from a perspective it was never written in, nor interpreted from until maybe 600 years ago (the western scientific perspective) is producing more fruit of headaches and hurt feelings than it is advancing the Gospel.

 

But finding the Gospel in Genesis 1 - WOW! That was mind-blowing.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Shiloh....

      Praise the Lord,right on & to the point,just like Jesus said,"if these things were not so I would have told you" & as the Lord is never changing.......if God were trying to fit 15 billion years into 6days,He would have said so.......but He did not!!!!!!Amen,brother,Amen!

                                                                                                       With love,in Christ-Kwik

[a-seeker]

 

You cannot take a quote Dr. Schroeder used from someone else who may have practiced a considerably different form of Kabbalah and make it to what we understand about Kabbalah today, which is definitely occultic.  Back centuries ago it did not take this form.

 

You are wrong. The Kaballah was always occultic.  

 

Besides they are referencing certain points of Hebrew to support a point that was made. 

 

They are referencing Hebrew from a mystical and not a textual perspective  They are adding mystical interpretations and presenting this mystical meaning as if it is the meaning of the text.

 

When we read more about the science of starlight and time we can see that the six day 24-hour creation and the billions of years of age to the universe can both be true.  This is the essence of Hebrew block logic.

 

That is not the essence of Herew block logic at all  If God were trying to fit 15 billion years into six days, He would have said so, but He didn't. 

 

"If God were trying to fit 15 billion years into 6 days....He would have done so."

 

Shiloh, are you a prophet?  How in God's name do you know what God would have done if He wished to communicate something?  Are you beyond the realm of Ro 11:33-36?  Did God consult you as His editor?  "My foot my tutor".

 

Also, calling upon one scholar (above) to "settle" the case is poor form; you know very well that any of us can call upon any number of scholars to point in the opposite direction.

 

Finally,  the YOM debate does nothing to my argument.

 

The problem is not whether  Moses wrote day referring to a 24 hour  period.  I believe he had to; in fact, if he didn't, that would actually hurt my case--for it would have failed to strike the appropriate analogy between pagan temple rituals and the creation of the Cosmos.

 

 It is not the definition of YOM but the significance, or polemical point, in using it.  

 

A simple study of Yom will not win me over, for I am drawing not only on the language but the culture of the time.

 

Really, the appropriate answer to me would be one of 3 things:  1) the cultural parallels don’t exist—you, or the scholars you consult, have either misinterpreted their archaeological findings, or they lied.  

 

2) the parallels are mere coincidences.  That they make YOU see a parallel is your own delusion.

 

 

From here there is really no room for debate.  We are at an impasse.

 

clb

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, are you a prophet?  How in God's name do you know what God would have done if He wished to communicate something?  Are you beyond the realm of Ro 11:33-36?  Did God consult you as His editor?  "My foot my tutor".

 

My point was that if God wanted to fit 15 billion years into 6 days and wanted us to believe that 6 days was actually a 15 billion year span of time, He was perfectly capable communicating that in the book of Genesis, but He didn't do it.

 

Also, calling upon one scholar (above) to "settle" the case is poor form; you know very well that any of us can call upon any number of scholars to point in the opposite direction.

 

Uh, I didn't call on a Hebrew scholar to settle the case.   I simply cited the scholar to make the point that my position on the Hebrew of Genesis 1 was not merely the workings of my own mind and I produced a scholar of Hebrew to bolster the position I was making and to show I was not making things up. 

 

 

Finally,  the YOM debate does nothing to my argument.

 

The problem is not whether  Moses wrote day referring to a 24 hour  period.

 

Actually, it is the very heart of the problem we are discussing in this and in other threads.

 

 

 

 It is not the definition of YOM but the significance, or polemical point, in using it.  

 

Ah yes....  the polemical argument.  Usually used for those who hold the document hypothesis (JEPD) of the first five books of Moses.

 

 

 

A simple study of Yom will not win me over, for I am drawing not only on the language but the culture of the time.

Well, you're in luck because I am not trying to "win" you over.

 

Really, the appropriate answer to me would be one of 3 things:  1) the cultural parallels don’t exist—you, or the scholars you consult, have either misinterpreted their archaeological findings, or they lied.  

 

2) the parallels are mere coincidences.  That they make YOU see a parallel is your own delusion.

 

 

From here there is really no room for debate.  We are at an impasse.

 

I really couldn't care less about these alleged parallels you claim exist.  That has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.   If you want to talk about those parallels, then start another thread about it.

[nebula]

My point was that if God wanted to fit 15 billion years into 6 days and wanted us to believe that 6 days was actually a 15 billion year span of time, He was perfectly capable communicating that in the book of Genesis, but He didn't do it.

 

Sorry, but I really do have the nagging need to point this out. The concept of the word "billion" didn't actually exist back then. (Yes, I'm being nit-picky, but still....)

[Spock]

My point was that if God wanted to fit 15 billion years into 6 days and wanted us to believe that 6 days was actually a 15 billion year span of time, He was perfectly capable communicating that in the book of Genesis, but He didn't do it.

Sorry, but I really do have the nagging need to point this out. The concept of the word "billion" didn't actually exist back then. (Yes, I'm being nit-picky, but still....)

I never thought of that. Thanks.

On a side note, I don't know if the good docs research (Schroeder) is correct, but it sure is thought provoking.

[JohnD]

His writings is a bit dry, but the late Doctor A.E. Wilder-Smith (holder of three earned Phd's) began as an old universe atheistic evolutionist and came to faith and later to YEC.

 

One of his many points was the mathematics conjecture often purported as truth yet having no evidence was palmed off as science and scientific facts. Then to support it they would use the circular reasoning of the  calibration of dating methods based on the geological record which was based on the calibration of dating methods. Throw in the several frauds like Piltdown man and Nebraska man (family) and a massive cover ups throughout the macro-evolutionary tyranny of the last 90 years... and you have nothing but the mathematics conjecture beyond the evidence for a 7 to 10 thousand year old creation.

 

Before he passed away in his 90's Wilder-Smith did not comment on the decay of c. paper by Barry Setterfield and Trever Norman but he was aware of their work. Most in the scientific community have vehemently opposed the work but have not actually refuted it. A situation I am somewhat familiar with in the truth I try to share in my circles of influence.

 

Baffling and bullying do not prove anything. Old age creationists and macro evolutionists have proved nothing.

[a-seeker]

 

Shiloh, are you a prophet?  How in God's name do you know what God would have done if He wished to communicate something?  Are you beyond the realm of Ro 11:33-36?  Did God consult you as His editor?  "My foot my tutor".

 

My point was that if God wanted to fit 15 billion years into 6 days and wanted us to believe that 6 days was actually a 15 billion year span of time, He was perfectly capable communicating that in the book of Genesis, but He didn't do it.

 

Also, calling upon one scholar (above) to "settle" the case is poor form; you know very well that any of us can call upon any number of scholars to point in the opposite direction.

 

Uh, I didn't call on a Hebrew scholar to settle the case.   I simply cited the scholar to make the point that my position on the Hebrew of Genesis 1 was not merely the workings of my own mind and I produced a scholar of Hebrew to bolster the position I was making and to show I was not making things up. 

 

 

Finally,  the YOM debate does nothing to my argument.

 

The problem is not whether  Moses wrote day referring to a 24 hour  period.

 

Actually, it is the very heart of the problem we are discussing in this and in other threads.

 

 

 

 It is not the definition of YOM but the significance, or polemical point, in using it.  

 

Ah yes....  the polemical argument.  Usually used for those who hold the document hypothesis (JEPD) of the first five books of Moses.

 

 

 

A simple study of Yom will not win me over, for I am drawing not only on the language but the culture of the time.

Well, you're in luck because I am not trying to "win" you over.

 

Really, the appropriate answer to me would be one of 3 things:  1) the cultural parallels don’t exist—you, or the scholars you consult, have either misinterpreted their archaeological findings, or they lied.  

 

2) the parallels are mere coincidences.  That they make YOU see a parallel is your own delusion.

 

 

From here there is really no room for debate.  We are at an impasse.

 

I really couldn't care less about these alleged parallels you claim exist.  That has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.   If you want to talk about those parallels, then start another thread about it.

 

"If he wanted us to know that the world was 15 billion years old...."  not an exact quote, sorry.

 

What spiritual significance would there be in knowing that the world is that old?  I don't think the point of Genesis was to tell us the age of the earth.  If he did, it would've been useless to the mindset of an ancient Hebrew.  It would've totally confused him: an irrelevant detail.  God didn't write Genesis to settle this debate.  So, in a sense, I agree.  If it were absolutely essential to ours and man's salvation that everyone know the earth was billions of years old, He would've said so.  Absolutely....it wasn't essential, so God didn't say it.  Doesn't mean it's not true.

 

clb

[Guest shiloh357]

What spiritual significance would there be in knowing that the world is that old?

 

It's not an issue of spiritual significance.  The issue is authority.  Does science have the authority to interpret and/or modify the claims of Scripture? 

 

 

I don't think the point of Genesis was to tell us the age of the earth.

 

I don't think that is the point of Genesis 1, either.   It is an important issue because, again, it goes to the Bible's authority.

 

 

If he did, it would've been useless to the mindset of an ancient Hebrew.  It would've totally confused him: an irrelevant detail.  God didn't write Genesis to settle this debate.  So, in a sense, I agree.  If it were absolutely essential to ours and man's salvation that everyone know the earth was billions of years old, He would've said so.  Absolutely....it wasn't essential, so God didn't say it.  Doesn't mean it's not true.

 

That completely confuses the issue, though.  No one said it is essential to anyone's salvation to know how old the earth is.  The point is that there are people who demand something of the Hebrew language that isn't there, namely that "yom" in Genesis is being used to refer to long epochs of time, which the context simply doesn't support.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

My point was that if God wanted to fit 15 billion years into 6 days and wanted us to believe that 6 days was actually a 15 billion year span of time, He was perfectly capable communicating that in the book of Genesis, but He didn't do it.

 

Sorry, but I really do have the nagging need to point this out. The concept of the word "billion" didn't actually exist back then. (Yes, I'm being nit-picky, but still....)

 

That is true.  But the point is that if God wanted to communicate to us that the "days" of creation were long epochs of time, there are better and more precise ways in Hebrew that would have been better than "yom."