The age ol' question about God - FW vs P

[AlanLamb0986]

I have a controversial view on predestination- I believe it's exactly what it says on the tin. God elects a chosen few to be saved by Grace. Even Jesus said that we can't believe unless by the will of the Father. I think's that's pretty straightforward. Jesus said He is the only way to the Father, but we can't get to Jesus unless the Father calls us. There's no other way of explaining this- God chooses man. Do you really think we would chose God? The Bible calls us objects of wrath, absent of anything good or Holy and so on. Why would we choose to approach God? Unless God called you, you'd flee from Him, not run towards Him! Jesus calls Himself the Light, but we were scared of the light. Lights reveals the truth, it allows us to see what we really are. We were happy in the dark, because we had no contrast. We had nothing to show us how far we'd fallen. Then God comes in the flesh and suddenly we're like 'oh...oh dear.'

So those that deny literal predestination are left with a serious dilemma. Either only those who are called by the Father then go on to call on the Son- predestination as it's called. Or there's a bunch of people that are calling on Jesus that haven't been called by the Father. How can people full of sin, which God is sickened by, enter His presence by there own choice, in order to be saved? Can you truly enter the presence of God without His approval? We know that's not the case, because there was a huge veil in the temple that separated the Jews from the Holy of Holies. They couldn't look upon it because they were by nature sinful, God is by nature righteous. God's righteousness overcomes sin, so just to look upon it would've killed the children of Israel.

The issue is predestination means that God chooses some not to be saved. So? If we are all deserving of the punishment, why do people get uncomfortable at the idea that God chooses some to be saved?  God calling on some is not unfair to others. It would only be unfair if we were in any way deserving of our Salvation, but we still denied by God. An illustration would be a man randomly handing out money to five people in a crowd of twenty. Would the fifteen people who did not receive money be upset? Probably so. Do they have a right to be upset? No, they do not. Why? Because the man did not owe anyone money. He simply decided to be gracious to some.

May I say, without offending, that it's only those who view God as two dimensional that get slightly worried about these kind of subjects.

 

• God is love
• God is forgiving
• God is patient
• God is gentle

But!

• God is vengeful
• God is wrathful
• God is a demander of a type of justice that we can't possibly understand
• God demands a payment for sin- death
• He is sovereign and absolutely, undeniably does not care about the opinion of man

We need to remember that God is beyond four-dimensional, and will never make sense to us completely. He will always be more than us, in nature, in action, and in being. 

Edited January 16, 2014 by AlanLamb0986

[Hawkins]

To me, pre-destination refers to how we behave against time. We must know what time is before we can get to what pre-destination is. It seems to me that we failed to realize that no human ever understood what time is, that we think that we can understand what pre-destination is in accourdance to our concept of what time is. As a matter of fact, we can't comprehend precisely what time is, it thus is impossible for us to know precisely what pre-destination is.

 

That said. To a certain extent, pre-destination could possibly mean that by our free will we already chose to be with sin and thus captive by the devil. God however chooses to wake some of us up such that we will be able to be saved through Christ.

[LuftWaffle]

Hi Omegaman,

I'd like to respond to your post if I may.

 

 

God is omniscient, know all things, including the future.

So, even before creation, He knew all who would be saved, and all who would be lost.

If God were to speak those thoughts out, we would call that prophecy, and we know all prophecies of God, come true.

So, if God knew that Omegaman was going to acknowledge Jesus in 1979, then that is what was going to happen. Nothing that Omegaman could do of fail to do of his free will, can change what God foreknew. Of course, it can be argued that God knew that Omegaman would use his free will to choose God, but even if that is the case, it remains that Omegaman was predestined to choose, since God had foreseen it. Is that sort of free will really free will? My path was set long before I was born and able to choose anything.

There are some problems with how you're stating the issue here.
Firstly you say that there is nothing that you could do of your own free will to change the outcome that God foreknew. Well, that's not entirely true if human being's have freewill. God simply knows what you would freely choose and if you did something else freely then God would know the new thing that you would do.
So it isn't that there's nothing that you could do of your freewill to change the outcome, but rather that any free choice would be known beforehand.

Secondly, there's no reason to think that free will is only truly free if nobody knows the outcome. No definition of freewill requires that an external entity such as God, must be unaware of the outcome of our free choices otherwise our choices aren't really free.

Suppose a good chess player has studied his opponent carefully and knows what his opponent's next move will be. Does that mean that the opponent's move isn't free but somehow preterdemined? Ofcourse not.

Likewise there's no conflict between God knowing our choices and the freedom of those choices.

 

 

I do not really see what difference it makes, except to our flesh which desires to have an active part in our salvation

This is a standard Calvinist charge that those who disagree with the Calvinist interpretation of scripture have some spiritual flaw.

 

 

Whether God actually chose certain people in eternity (which I think the bible teaches) or only presented an opportunity for people to choose for themselves autonomously seems irrelevant since it seems obvious, based on God's foreknowledge, that we have a destiny that will be fulfilled. Seems like the mechanics of how it occurs are just intellectual semantics.

The difference is that in the first instance God is responsible for the destiny and in the second man is responsible for the destiny.
So in the former case, people are punished in hell for sins they couldn't avoid and for rejecting salvation that wasn't given to them anyway.
In the latter case, people are punished in hell for sins they knew they could have avoided, and for rejecting the gift of salvation that was offered to them.

No non-Calvinist believes that people "choose for themselves autonomously". Autonomy is way too strong a word because it implies that a person has no influence upon the will and nothing external preventing the free excercise of the will. I consider free will to simply mean the ability to make a choice within a framework of possibilities and within numerous influences such as God's drawing people unto him, satans influences and the weaknesses of our flesh tugging at us.
The basic necessity for freewill isn't autonomy, but merely just the option to do otherwise, whether with great difficulty or not.

[LuftWaffle]

Hi AlanLamb0986,

 

 

I have a controversial view on predestination- I believe it's exactly what it says on the tin. God elects a chosen few to be saved by Grace. Even Jesus said that we can't believe unless by the will of the Father. I think's that's pretty straightforward.
Jesus said He is the only way to the Father, but we can't get to Jesus unless the Father calls us. There's no other way of explaining this- God chooses man.

I'm not sure why you think this view is controversial. As an Arminian I can agree with what you're saying here. I believe God's prevenient grace, His drawing, enables us to come to him, so thus we cannot come to God unless the father draws us. I suppose the difference is that I believe that God draws all men unto Him, whereas those who espouse five point Calvinism believe that God only draws a certain few, but I'm not sure that the drawing of a certain few is actually what the "tin" says.
This view assumes a notion of total depravity that I can't really see in scripture. The very verse dealing with objects of wrath in Romans is a quote from Jeremiah where God laments the fact that people reject Him but that if they turn to Him he'll make them objects of glory. Surely it implies then that the "object of wrath" status isn't unconditional, but rather conditional. Why would God lament man's wickedness if God Himself not only decreed that they be wicked after Adam, but also could simply determine their obedience?
But again in John it says that people love the darkness but if they come to the light, they'll have everlasting life. Again the language is conditional. On the predestination view Jesus is rather deceptively
I don't see the dilemma. If God wishes all men to be saved and draws all men unto Him, then it's not possible to call on Jesus without having been called by the father. The great commission also seems to affirm this as it's really an instruction to go and disciple all men, not merely to go an disciple the elect.
The parable of the wedding also seems to show that all people are invited. In fact the very word "invitation" implies the freedom to choose. If predestination were true one would perhaps rather expect the parable of the wedding to read somewhat differently. 

 

 

The issue is predestination means that God chooses some not to be saved. So? If we are all deserving of the punishment, why do people get uncomfortable at the idea that God chooses some to be saved?

Precisely because punishment is only "deserved" where there is responsibility and for there to be responsibility there must be the opportunity to do otherwise. One cannot condemn a zebra for having stripes because the zebra isn't responsible for having stripes in the first place. Likewise God cannot condemn those who reject Him and disobey Him if He decreed and determined that disobedience and rejection.
The illustration doesn't work because handing out money has no moral weight. We're not talking about an amoral gift, but about justice, which has moral weight.

 

In short the reason your analogy fails is because there is no expectation that a stranger would give anybody money, but there is an expectation that a just God would give justice to all people.

 

I'm not offended, but I don't think that the predestination view makes sense of God's love or God's justice.

[other one]

if there is predestination, there is no free will.......    I'll quote from another thread:::::

 

 

 

If there is no free will, then God is not a Father, nor is He a Shepherd or a Husband or a King.

If there is no free will, then all life is a puppet show, and God is a Puppet Master pulling on a string.

[Donibm]

Free will vs Predestination

 

1.  Does scripture contradict itself by saying we have free will to salvation, yet does God choose who shall be saved. 2. If God chooses his people, and if man is spiritually corrupt because of sin, then WHY also write scriptures of repentance. 3. Are these scriptures of repentance speaking for ALL people or the one's he predestined. 4. Since Romans 1:20 already says God is in creation and they are without excuse then why does the Christian need to spread the gospel. 5. Couldn't Christians just avoid all that persecution by trusting in Romans 1:20 and predestination. 6. Why would a loving God predestine a few people to heaven and the rest to hell. 7. Isn't predestination the opposite of free will. 8. Is it safe to say we cannot know the mind of God and just lean on faith alone. 9. The christian asks "if predestination is truth then why me, why have I been chosen??" Blessings, David. Let us pray for discernment.

 

Matt 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near."

 

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

vs

 

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

 

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

 

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

 

I'll never understand why people struggle with this.

 

Just becasue God knows the end from the beginning, doesn't mean that we don't have free will.

 

I know that my daughter will get pregnant if she messes with men, but that doesn't negate her ability to CHOOSE ... does it (I don't have a daughter, I'm just making a point ... hopefully)?

 

So, how does God knowing how you will ultimately end rob you of the ability to CHOOSE or REFUSE?

 

 

My father taught me, as a boy, that I always have a choice.  Even if a man is locking my arm behind me, threatening to break it off, I STILL have a choice.  I agree.  Even under pain of torture, we still have a CHOICE.

[Qnts2]

I think that over the years, I have talked to so many Calvinists, I understand their view enough to answer like a Calvinist.

 

As far as free will to choose to be saved, Calvinists say this is impossible for a person who is unregenerated. An unregenerated person can make choices but would never choose God, as by nature, they are enemies of God. Choosing God is against their nature as sinners.  

 

Arminians believe man can choose God (when drawn). As scripture says 'choose this day Whom you will serve'.

 

I believe the weakness of the Calvinist argument is two fold.

 

First, Calvinists will argue that by choosing, a person can claim to have worked and gotten their salvation. But, to find a scriptural definition of work, perhaps the best place is to understand what is forbidden on the Sabbath which is a day when no work is to be done. You will not find reading, studying, praying, or choosing. Mental activity is not considered work and is permitted on the Sabbath. So that argument that choosing is work is not scriptural.

 

The second argument against men choosing Jesus has to do with Gods sovereignty. If God is sovereign, then according to Calvinism, no person is able to override what God wants. So, if God want a person saved, then no person could choose not to accept Jesus as then God would no longer be sovereign. To me this is very strange logic. A King who is sovereign, can decide in his sovereignty, to let another person choose something without forgoing the Kings sovereignty. Designing a system by which a person can choose something, it a part of the designers sovereignty. So, by denying God the authority to give another entity the limited right to choose, is taking away from Gods sovereignty as it is denying Gods right to choose how a system will work.   

[Guest DRS81]

I'll never understand why people struggle with this.

 

Just becasue God knows the end from the beginning, doesn't mean that we don't have free will.

 

I know that my daughter will get pregnant if she messes with men, but that doesn't negate her ability to CHOOSE ... does it (I don't have a daughter, I'm just making a point ... hopefully)?

 

So, how does God knowing how you will ultimately end rob you of the ability to CHOOSE or REFUSE?

 

 

My father taught me, as a boy, that I always have a choice.  Even if a man is locking my arm behind me, threatening to break it off, I STILL have a choice.  I agree.  Even under pain of torture, we still have a CHOICE.

 

 

Donibm, greetings. Yes there is free will and consequences to our actions. Predestination is describing the state of the believer after salvation. It has nothing to do with free will. Review post 2 & 4. Blessings.

[Adhemar]

Some of us are predetermined.  Imagine the universe as a giant chess set.  God puts predetermined people into place in order to ensure that his plans prosper.  He thinks many moves ahead for example, Isaiah 42 was used to confirm Jesus, but if Jesus lives in us, and God speaks through prophets, then if God sent another prophet to the level of Ezekiel, then that prophet would share and finish Isaiah 42.  Some of us don't have much of a choice (Bond Servant of Christ), we just are; however, knowing everything is boring, and God likes it when his creation surprises him.  Great Commission. 

Edited April 20, 2014 by Adhemar

[Fez]

Some of us are predetermined.  Imagine the universe as a giant chess set.  God puts predetermined people into place in order to ensure that his plans prosper.  He thinks many moves ahead for example, Isaiah 42 was used to confirm Jesus, but if Jesus lives in us, and God speaks through prophets, then if God sent another prophet to the level of Ezekiel, then that prophet would share and finish Isaiah 42.  Some of us don't have much of a choice (Bond Servant of Christ), we just are; however, knowing everything is boring, and God likes it when his creation surprises him.  Great Commission. 

 God likes it when his creation surprises him

 

Care to explain how one surprises God?