Betrayers of Jesus unto Cavalry

[nebula]

Hi Qnts and nebula

 

It sounds like to me are you saying that Jesus was thought by many that he was going to become some powerful ruler. I mean did some people believe he was going to form some great army and be able to defeat Rome?

I'm asking because if there were some who believed this wouldn't Roman officials want him dead

if they had any word that Jesus had any attempt to overthrow the Roman army?

 

The prophecies concerning Messiah indicated that He would overcome the human rule of government and replace it with His rule, and this is what the people clung to.

 

But there are also prophecies about the Messiah being the suffering servant, however they were blinded to this. It was only after the ressurection that the disciples got it.

 

 

Now, Messiah will conquor the human governements, but that is still in the future. The fulfillment of Passover came first. The new kingdom comes later.

[celebratejesus]

 

Hi Qnts and nebula

 

It sounds like to me are you saying that Jesus was thought by many that he was going to become some powerful ruler. I mean did some people believe he was going to form some great army and be able to defeat Rome?

I'm asking because if there were some who believed this wouldn't Roman officials want him dead

if they had any word that Jesus had any attempt to overthrow the Roman army?

 

The prophecies concerning Messiah indicated that He would overcome the human rule of government and replace it with His rule, and this is what the people clung to.

 

But there are also prophecies about the Messiah being the suffering servant, however they were blinded to this. It was only after the ressurection that the disciples got it.

 

 

Now, Messiah will conquor the human governements, but that is still in the future. The fulfillment of Passover came first. The new kingdom comes later.

 

I see it this way as well, and the part about the people being blinded to it, that is something I didn't get or think about.  I do think about Jesus disciples a lot, try to put myself in their shoes, they were just people like us, but God had a might work for them to do.  But you are so right that they couldn't have fully grasped it until the resurrection, and then, as we all know, there was doubting thomas:)  I'm afraid I have to admit to relating with him an awful lot:) God bless your day:) denise, ysic

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 So, Judas was the only person to betray Jesus, simply because he traveled with him as a disciple and a friend, and a believer, even though he secretly did not believe who Jesus said He was.      

 

It can be argued that Judas did not intend to betray Jesus. Rather, having the mindset (like everyone else) that the Messiah was going to restore the Kingdom of David, and having seen Jesus overcome every time people tried to seize Him, he was thinking of hurrying God's hand. That is, he was sure that when the guards came for Jesus, Jesus would again overcome and actually begin to rise up against the Romans.

 

That would explain why he was so horribly grief-stricken when things went differently.

 

 

It is a good argument, except for the following....

 

Matt 10:4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.

 

Matt 26:15 and said, “What are you willing to give me to betray Him to you?” And they weighed out thirty pieces of silver to him. 16

From then on he began looking for a good opportunity to betray Jesus.

 

Matt 26:23 And He answered, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me. ²⁴ The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” ²⁵ And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself.”

 

So, the intent you ascribe to Judas sounds plausable, but unless the original Greek word has other nuances, I think scripture does say that Judas betrayed Jesus. From your story, Judas did betray Jesus but did not intend the betrayal to result in Jesus death but rather the betrayal would result in the defeat of Rome. 

 

I did not say that Judas did not betray Jesus.

 

Simply that he believed the betrayal would lead to victory, not to defeat.

 

I re-read what you wrote and you are right. I misread.

[Remnantrob]

Just wanted to share an interesting point about Judas that was shared with me.  When Judas betrayed Jesus and sold him for 30 pieces of silver, did he repent?

Matthew 27:3-5 says he did

 

3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

⁴ Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

⁵ And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

 

But if he did, is there a repentance that the world knows how to demonstrate vs. the repentance that God requires.....had the scriptures but would appreciate help with this one.

 

So if he repented why did Judas hang himself?  Could it be that when he betrayed Christ, a scripture came to his mind that was unbearable.

 

Deut. 27:25

Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen

 

Could it be possible that he realized that he was cursed of God for what he did?  Just a thought.  What do you think?

[celebratejesus]

Just wanted to share an interesting point about Judas that was shared with me.  When Judas betrayed Jesus and sold him for 30 pieces of silver, did he repent?

Matthew 27:3-5 says he did

 

3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

⁴ Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

⁵ And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

 

But if he did, is there a repentance that the world knows how to demonstrate vs. the repentance that God requires.....had the scriptures but would appreciate help with this one.

 

So if he repented why did Judas hang himself?  Could it be that when he betrayed Christ, a scripture came to his mind that was unbearable.

 

Deut. 27:25

Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen

 

Could it be possible that he realized that he was cursed of God for what he did?  Just a thought.  What do you think?

Thank you for this, I had not remembered those verses, and my heart breaks for how Judas must have felt, denise, ysic

[GlidingWings]

Just wanted to share an interesting point about Judas that was shared with me.  When Judas betrayed Jesus and sold him for 30 pieces of silver, did he repent?

Matthew 27:3-5 says he did

 

3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

⁴ Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

⁵ And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

 

But if he did, is there a repentance that the world knows how to demonstrate vs. the repentance that God requires.....had the scriptures but would appreciate help with this one.

 

So if he repented why did Judas hang himself?  Could it be that when he betrayed Christ, a scripture came to his mind that was unbearable.

 

Deut. 27:25

Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen

 

Could it be possible that he realized that he was cursed of God for what he did?  Just a thought.  What do you think?

 

I have actually thought about this quite often too. I mean because Jesus died on the cross to forgive us.

And we know that the religious leaders and the crowds gather together to demand that Jesus was crucified and certainly they accomplished this.

That's why I said in my earlier post that Jesus says Father!Father!  forgive them for they do not know what they do.

 

So it seemed like everyone else had a way of redemption except Judas Iscariot who seemed never had another chance.

Jesus said at the Last Supper that he would be betrayed and it was better that the person not to be born.

So I remember that Judas was sorry for the things he did. I kind of wonder why Jesus did not send someone to Judas to say

Thou art Judas for you have betrayed me. But I have seen that you have repented of these things. Goest thou way.

 

For the great purpose of this had to happen for the son of man to be handed over. As we can see no one went out the way to rescue Judas from taking his life. So I have wondered if Judas actually said Oh God Father of Heaven I have sinned greatly against you and Judas brought a sacrifice of the appropiate offering would have been saved?

[Qnts2]

 

Just wanted to share an interesting point about Judas that was shared with me.  When Judas betrayed Jesus and sold him for 30 pieces of silver, did he repent?

Matthew 27:3-5 says he did

 

3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

⁴ Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

⁵ And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

 

But if he did, is there a repentance that the world knows how to demonstrate vs. the repentance that God requires.....had the scriptures but would appreciate help with this one.

 

So if he repented why did Judas hang himself?  Could it be that when he betrayed Christ, a scripture came to his mind that was unbearable.

 

Deut. 27:25

Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen

 

Could it be possible that he realized that he was cursed of God for what he did?  Just a thought.  What do you think?

 

I have actually thought about this quite often too. I mean because Jesus died on the cross to forgive us.

And we know that the religious leaders and the crowds gather together to demand that Jesus was crucified and certainly they accomplished this.

That's why I said in my earlier post that Jesus says Father!Father!  forgive them for they do not know what they do.

 

So it seemed like everyone else had a way of redemption except Judas Iscariot who seemed never had another chance.

Jesus said at the Last Supper that he would be betrayed and it was better that the person not to be born.

So I remember that Judas was sorry for the things he did. I kind of wonder why Jesus did not send someone to Judas to say

Thou art Judas for you have betrayed me. But I have seen that you have repented of these things. Goest thou way.

 

For the great purpose of this had to happen for the son of man to be handed over. As we can see no one went out the way to rescue Judas from taking his life. So I have wondered if Judas actually said Oh God Father of Heaven I have sinned greatly against you and Judas brought a sacrifice of the appropiate offering would have been saved?

 

 

 

What I find interesting in the verse is the term 'repent oneself'. I'll readily admit to not knowing any Greek so some of this is assumption.

 

In Hebrew, the word often translated to repent is 'shuv'. Shuv means 'to turn'. So, Judas turned and went back to return the money. And then went and committed suicide. People can repent, or turn from the direction they are going, but the bigger question, is, that to turn away also means turning toward something, or someone. When scripture/God says, turn from your wicked ways, that would not just be turning from wickedness but also agreeing with God that they are wicked, so turning away from wicked to God. Judas turned from accepting the silver, but those who gave it to him would not take it back. Judas still felt guilty. What Judas apparently did was turn away from turning in an innocent man for money, but he never turned to Jesus. He never believed on Jesus.

 

The sad point is, a person can repent, turn, without turning towards God.     

[Remnantrob]

 

 

Just wanted to share an interesting point about Judas that was shared with me.  When Judas betrayed Jesus and sold him for 30 pieces of silver, did he repent?

Matthew 27:3-5 says he did

 

3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

⁴ Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

⁵ And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

 

But if he did, is there a repentance that the world knows how to demonstrate vs. the repentance that God requires.....had the scriptures but would appreciate help with this one.

 

So if he repented why did Judas hang himself?  Could it be that when he betrayed Christ, a scripture came to his mind that was unbearable.

 

Deut. 27:25

Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen

 

Could it be possible that he realized that he was cursed of God for what he did?  Just a thought.  What do you think?

 

I have actually thought about this quite often too. I mean because Jesus died on the cross to forgive us.

And we know that the religious leaders and the crowds gather together to demand that Jesus was crucified and certainly they accomplished this.

That's why I said in my earlier post that Jesus says Father!Father!  forgive them for they do not know what they do.

 

So it seemed like everyone else had a way of redemption except Judas Iscariot who seemed never had another chance.

Jesus said at the Last Supper that he would be betrayed and it was better that the person not to be born.

So I remember that Judas was sorry for the things he did. I kind of wonder why Jesus did not send someone to Judas to say

Thou art Judas for you have betrayed me. But I have seen that you have repented of these things. Goest thou way.

 

For the great purpose of this had to happen for the son of man to be handed over. As we can see no one went out the way to rescue Judas from taking his life. So I have wondered if Judas actually said Oh God Father of Heaven I have sinned greatly against you and Judas brought a sacrifice of the appropiate offering would have been saved?

 

 

 

What I find interesting in the verse is the term 'repent oneself'. I'll readily admit to not knowing any Greek so some of this is assumption.

 

In Hebrew, the word often translated to repent is 'shuv'. Shuv means 'to turn'. So, Judas turned and went back to return the money. And then went and committed suicide. People can repent, or turn from the direction they are going, but the bigger question, is, that to turn away also means turning toward something, or someone. When scripture/God says, turn from your wicked ways, that would not just be turning from wickedness but also agreeing with God that they are wicked, so turning away from wicked to God. Judas turned from accepting the silver, but those who gave it to him would not take it back. Judas still felt guilty. What Judas apparently did was turn away from turning in an innocent man for money, but he never turned to Jesus. He never believed on Jesus.

 

The sad point is, a person can repent, turn, without turning towards God.     

 

I was with you until you said Judas never believed on Jesus.  I'm not sure about that because why follow Jesus if he didn't believe on him?  I think he was just like the other disciples in that they were expecting the Messiah to have a different role....more of one that would be a conquering king for the Jews.  Jesus had to be point the disciples to the scriptures when he was resurrected so that they would more clearly understand what his role was as the messiah.  Maybe Judas thought he would be helping Christ to step into his role.  I mean he saw Jesus heal and make food multiply for thousands and walk on water.  With a king like that the jews would be the pride of all nations.  Just a thought.

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

Just wanted to share an interesting point about Judas that was shared with me.  When Judas betrayed Jesus and sold him for 30 pieces of silver, did he repent?

Matthew 27:3-5 says he did

 

3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

⁴ Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

⁵ And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

 

But if he did, is there a repentance that the world knows how to demonstrate vs. the repentance that God requires.....had the scriptures but would appreciate help with this one.

 

So if he repented why did Judas hang himself?  Could it be that when he betrayed Christ, a scripture came to his mind that was unbearable.

 

Deut. 27:25

Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen

 

Could it be possible that he realized that he was cursed of God for what he did?  Just a thought.  What do you think?

 

I have actually thought about this quite often too. I mean because Jesus died on the cross to forgive us.

And we know that the religious leaders and the crowds gather together to demand that Jesus was crucified and certainly they accomplished this.

That's why I said in my earlier post that Jesus says Father!Father!  forgive them for they do not know what they do.

 

So it seemed like everyone else had a way of redemption except Judas Iscariot who seemed never had another chance.

Jesus said at the Last Supper that he would be betrayed and it was better that the person not to be born.

So I remember that Judas was sorry for the things he did. I kind of wonder why Jesus did not send someone to Judas to say

Thou art Judas for you have betrayed me. But I have seen that you have repented of these things. Goest thou way.

 

For the great purpose of this had to happen for the son of man to be handed over. As we can see no one went out the way to rescue Judas from taking his life. So I have wondered if Judas actually said Oh God Father of Heaven I have sinned greatly against you and Judas brought a sacrifice of the appropiate offering would have been saved?

 

 

 

What I find interesting in the verse is the term 'repent oneself'. I'll readily admit to not knowing any Greek so some of this is assumption.

 

In Hebrew, the word often translated to repent is 'shuv'. Shuv means 'to turn'. So, Judas turned and went back to return the money. And then went and committed suicide. People can repent, or turn from the direction they are going, but the bigger question, is, that to turn away also means turning toward something, or someone. When scripture/God says, turn from your wicked ways, that would not just be turning from wickedness but also agreeing with God that they are wicked, so turning away from wicked to God. Judas turned from accepting the silver, but those who gave it to him would not take it back. Judas still felt guilty. What Judas apparently did was turn away from turning in an innocent man for money, but he never turned to Jesus. He never believed on Jesus.

 

The sad point is, a person can repent, turn, without turning towards God.     

 

I was with you until you said Judas never believed on Jesus.  I'm not sure about that because why follow Jesus if he didn't believe on him?  I think he was just like the other disciples in that they were expecting the Messiah to have a different role....more of one that would be a conquering king for the Jews.  Jesus had to be point the disciples to the scriptures when he was resurrected so that they would more clearly understand what his role was as the messiah.  Maybe Judas thought he would be helping Christ to step into his role.  I mean he saw Jesus heal and make food multiply for thousands and walk on water.  With a king like that the jews would be the pride of all nations.  Just a thought.

 

 

I regularly ask people, who would you say Jesus is to you? I get a very wide range of answers. One pastor said that Jesus was a servant of God, but he made a mistake and let things get out of hand, so he ended up being killed. Since this man was a pastor, we might say that he followed Jesus, and dedicated himself to Jesus, but he had no clue who Jesus really was, or what He did. I do not find it a very big stretch to say the Judas could be one of the twelve, but never really believed on Jesus even though he followed Jesus.   

[Remnantrob]

I guess the question would be what is belief...but I understand what you're saying more clearly now.  Thanks