Dialogue envisioning: Creationist vs Conventional scientist

[nebula]

if God spoke it then its truth, i never need to question truth, I am a full believer in our Maker of all heaven and all earth and if you have a question, He's quite wonderful at answering them, but as for me i will never question what my heavenly Father has spoken, in Him I put all my trust, I don't need another, only Him and Him alone.

 

Sure, but we can say this about predestination vs. free-will. Both sides claim to be speaking God's truth based on what is written in Scripture. So which if either is God's truth?

 

So with this, what makes one interpretation over another "God's truth"?

[enoob57]

if God spoke it then its truth, i never need to question truth, I am a full believer in our Maker of all heaven and all earth and if you have a question, He's quite wonderful at answering them, but as for me i will never question what my heavenly Father has spoken, in Him I put all my trust, I don't need another, only Him and Him alone.

 

Sure, but we can say this about predestination vs. free-will. Both sides claim to be speaking God's truth based on what is written in Scripture. So which if either is God's truth?

 

So with this, what makes one interpretation over another "God's truth"?

This is a very good point Nebula. The whole of Scripture is one of

Descriptive lesson toward Love and how only in God it is contained... It cannot

be found outside of God and it is clearly defined by God in 1Cor 13 and more

succinctly here

1 John 5:2-5

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God,

and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep

his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever

is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh

the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that

believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

KJV

So in that love and obedience comes this concept

Rom 11:33-34

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how

unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who

hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

KJV

As The Written Word has been claimed as God's Own Word we would expect that there

are places (many) that exceed our ability to reconcile in our minds and (IF) we

are walking in the Spirit we will be obediently active in this

Isa 8:17-20

17 And I will wait upon the Lord, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob,

and I will look for him. 18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given

me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth

in mount Zion. 19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have

familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people

seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 20 To the law and to the testimony:

if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

KJV

He will increase us to His Good Pleasure and in His closeness we will be wanting even closer.

James 4:8-10

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands,

ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted,

and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your

joy to heaviness.

10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

KJV

It is a humility to say I do not know when having the written completed Word but it is love

to say so when it is so within us

Love, Steven

[Enoch2021]

 

Dont you know Nebula what you do is not science, it is just bagels masquerading as science. 

 

Yeah, I know.

 

But I remember thinking that way myself, until I actually worked the science myself and discovered that classroom science isn't real science. (Chuck that to a part of our flawed educational system.)

 

The classroom teaches us science is about falsifying experimentation. Then you take a field science class and spend your time learning by observing and analyzing what was observed.

 

But with things like astronomy, most people don't understand that working with the calculations, comparing that with data gathered, and running new data through the calculation is the experimentation and falsifying the theory. I never fully appreciated that until I took and astronomy lab class where we got to practice such.

 

How many people know that the layers of the earth as we know that is actually a theory and not proven fact? Seriously. No one has seen beneath the upper mantle to prove anything. All we have are instruments that measure seismic waves passing through the globe to tell us different things based on such things as speed of the wave from one point to another.

 

Anyway, the point is, if people can be shown in some way how science deals with things that can't be grown in a lab so to speak (which is unfortunately where classrooms are restricted), it would help them to understand and respect this kind of science.

 

 

"The classroom teaches us science is about falsifying experimentation."

 

  It's called the "Scientific Method". 

 

 

"Then you take a field science class and spend your time learning by observing and analyzing what was observed."

 

That's not an EXPERIMENT.  The TESTING of a hypothesis is done via experiment. That is what an experiment is, it is a TEST.

Observations are not a test.  That's just step 1 of the Scientific Method.  An experiment is a physical TEST one carries out, an experiment is not created from "data", in fact an experiment is done to provide data.

Your "experiment" rests on the assumption that your hypothesis is THE ONLY CAUSE... How can you test what is the CAUSE of similarities when all you do is observe similarities??  Data analysis by definition is not an experiment because analyzing your data isn't you attempting to test something.

 

Do the tenets of Science: "Field" and "Classroom" change by location?

 

 

"But with things like astronomy, most people don't understand that working with the calculations, comparing that with data gathered, and running new data through the calculation is the experimentation and falsifying the theory."

 

That's not an Experiment....see response above.  Furthermore, What is your Independent Variable, Dependent Variable, and Control?  Comparing is just "comparing" it reveals nothing of causation.

 

 

"Anyway, the point is, if people can be shown in some way how science deals with things that can't be grown in a lab so to speak (which is unfortunately where classrooms are restricted)"

 

Empirical Science Deals with the SCIENTIFIC METHOD period, end of story.  If you wish, you can petition the Scientific Establishment to allow: Observations, Comparisons, and Ideas in place of Experimentation and Empirical Evidence.

 

I'm not saying that the Historical/Forensic Sciences (Cosmology, Paleontology, Archeology, Anthroplogy et al) aren't a respectable endeavor to undertake or study.  They are what they are...studies about the past.  And you can't do experiments on past events...it's that simple.

 

And again.....

 

“Cosmology may look like a science, but it isn’t a science. A basic tenet of science is that you can do repeatable experiments, and you can’t do that in cosmology.”

(Cho, Adrian, A singular conundrum: How odd is our universe? Science 3171848–1850, 2007.)

 

As opposed to Empirical Sciences or "Hard Sciences" (Biology, Chemistry, Physics et al).  These are ripe for experiments/ Scientific Method because they deal with DIRECTLY OBSERVABLE phenomenon.

 

Speaking of which....a prime example of this "Slight of Hand" technique with the term "Science": Evolutionary Biology.

 

Evolution by definition is a Historical Science. (Technically, I would say it's not even that) However....

 

'Evolution is biology as a historical science.'

Lodish, H., Baltimore, D., Berk, A., Zipursky, S.L., Matsudaira, P. and Darnell, J., Molecular Cell Biology, third edition, Scientific American Books, distributed by W.H. Freeman and Co., New York, p. 4, 1995.

 

Biology is an Empirical Science.

 

Evolutionary Biology is a contradiction in terms

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch -

 

Perhaps you would be interested in tackling

 

Vs. 2 of Genesis 1 states they existed before God said, "Let there be light."

 

What do you make of this?

 

 

That's above my Pay Grade    Baby Christian here

 

I'll let the Hebrew Scholars tackle that.

 

More importantly, this deals with the "AGE" question that cannot be answered then VALIDATED by ANYONE.... except our LORD Jesus Christ.

 

Or,

 

Are you postulating that there was land and water that came from something else besides GOD or that always existed?

[Spock]

Hi Enoch -

 

Perhaps you would be interested in tackling

 

Vs. 2 of Genesis 1 states they existed before God said, "Let there be light."

 

What do you make of this?

 

 

That's above my Pay Grade    Baby Christian here

 

I'll let the Hebrew Scholars tackle that.

 

More importantly, this deals with the "AGE" question that cannot be answered then VALIDATED by ANYONE.... except our LORD Jesus Christ.

 

Or,

 

Are you postulating that there was land and water that came from something else besides GOD or that always existed?

Hebrew scholars! Lol. I'm sure they won't agree either. Jews are noted for their heated midrashes (debates).

That makes me wonder this, hey Shiloh, you hold yourself out as one. Mind telling me your qualifications in this regard?

[LookingForAnswers]

The google skills on this thread are formidable, I am not sure if I can match them, but it is worth a shot.

 

Here is something that Adrian Cho did say, it is from from 2013:

 

In cosmology, satellite observations of the universe repeatedly confirm scientists' picture of its composition and history. In particle physics, the discovery of the Higgs boson and measurements of its properties give equally compelling evidence that their "standard model" of elementary particles and force-generating symmetries explains everything it's supposed to.

 

Here is something that Adrian Cho did not say...

 

Cosmology may look like a science, but it isn’t a science. A basic tenet of science is that you can do repeatable experiments, and you can’t do that in cosmology

 

That was just a mined quote out of this article, not his quote just out of an article that he wrote.  Here is a link to the whole article.  Nobody can read this and come away with the idea Cho, or any of the rest, feel cosmology is not science.

[Guest]

....the whole Creation debate turns more people off from looking to Jesus....

 

Amen~!

 

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”

 

However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?”

 

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:14-17 (New American Standard Bible)

 

 

As You Know

 

Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. Proverbs 27:17 (King James Version)

 

Beloved,  Worthy Is A Place 

 

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

 

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jude 1:3-5 (King James Version)

 

Where Viewpoints Break Out And The Truth Will Prevail

 

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6 (King James Version)

 

~

 

The Big Debate

 

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5 (King James Version)

 

And Folks, Please Choose Your God

 

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 10:11 (King James Version)

 

You'll Never Be Ashamed

 

~

 

As I See It

 

Cosmology Is The Study Of The Origin

 

The Cosmology Of Jesus -

 

But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,  AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

 

And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;  Hebrews 1:8-19 (New American Standard Bible)

 

The Cosmology Of Newtonian Physics -

 

The omnipresence of God pervaded the Newtonian cosmos. The divine presence operated as an immaterial "aether" that offered no resistance to bodies, but could move them through the force of gravitation.

 

Newtonian gravitational theory practically demanded a continual miracle to prevent the Sun and the fixed stars from being pulled together. Newton envisioned an infinitely large universe, in which God had placed the stars at just the right distances so their attractions cancelled, as precisely as balancing needles on their points. Another possible solution was to place the fixed stars at such vast distances from one another that they could not attract each other perceptibly in the few thousand years since the Creation.

 

The ancient assumption that the stars were fixed in position was not seriously questioned until 1718, when the English astronomer Edmond Halley reported a remarkable discovery. Three bright stars were no longer in the positions determined by ancient observations. The stars were freed to move like normal physical objects. http://www.aip.org/history/cosmology/ideas/mechuniverse.htm

 

And The Evolution

 

The Cosmology Of Jesus -

 

He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together. Colossians 1:17 (New Living Translation)

 

The Cosmology Of Einsteinium Physics -

 

Back to the invariance of the speed of light. What about that animation?

Well you are probably thinking "even if I accept that, how can I explain the animation? How can Jasper and Zoe's 'speedometers' both get the same value of the speed of light? Just looking at it, I can see that the red dot is approaching Jasper faster than it is leaving Zoe. How do they get the same answer?

The answer is time dilation. We are looking at this animation from Jasper's frame of reference and, according to Jasper, time runs slowly for Zoe. Zoe's clocks, including the timing mechanism of her 'speedometer', run slowly. So Zoe records the same value for the speed of light.

The previous paragraph inverts the usual order of presentation of these ideas. The more fundamental and precise experiments show that the speed of light is independent of the observer, and from this we deduce time dilation. However, we also observe time dilation directly and so we could use this to deduce that the speed of light is independent of the observer.

For a discussion of the "variation of the speed of light with time or place", see

Beyond Relativity 2: Is The speed of light really constant? http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/einsteinlight/jw/module3_weird_logic.htm#GRER

 

And The Destiny Of The Universe

 

The Cosmology Of Jesus -

 

Then I saw a large, white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. Revelation 20:11 (International Standard Version)

 

The Cosmology Of Quantum Physics -

 

Collapse of the universe is closer than ever before

 

Maybe it happens tomorrow. Maybe in a billion years. Physicists have long predicted that the universe may one day collapse, and that everything in it will be compressed to a small hard ball. New calculations from physicists at the University of Southern Denmark now confirm this prediction – and they also conclude that the risk of a collapse is even greater than previously thought.

 

Sooner or later a radical shift in the forces of the universe will cause every little particle in it to become extremely heavy. Everything - every grain of sand on Earth, every planet in the solar system and every galaxy – will become millions of billions times heavier than it is now, and this will have disastrous consequences: The new weight will squeeze all material into a small, super hot and super heavy ball, and the universe as we know it will cease to exist.

This violent process is called a phase transition and is very similar to what happens when, for example water turns to steam or a magnet heats up and loses its magnetization. The phase transition in the universe will happen if a bubble is created where the Higgs-field associated with the Higgs-particle reaches a different value than the rest of the universe. If this new value results in lower energy and if the bubble is large enough, the bubble will expand at the speed of light in all directions. All elementary particles inside the bubble will reach a mass, that is much heavier than if they were outside the bubble, and thus they will be pulled together and form supermassive centers.

Contact: Jens Frederik Colding Krog.

 

Ref: Journal of High Energy Physics: Standard Model Vacuum Stability and Weyl Consistency Conditions.

Authors: Oleg Antipin, Marc Gillioz, Jens Area, Esben Mølgaard, Francesco Sannino (CP3 - Origins and DIA). http://www.sdu.dk/en/om_sdu/fakulteterne/naturvidenskab/nyheder/2013_12_12_collapsing_universe

 

 

~

 

I Pray This Contributes In Some Small Meaningful Way

 

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Acts 17:11 (English Standard Version)

 

To The Discussion Of The Vain Musings Of Mankind

 

It is beautiful how God has done everything at the right time. He has put a sense of eternity in people's minds. Yet, mortals still can't grasp what God is doing from the beginning to the end [of time]. Ecclesiastes 3:11 (GOD'S WORD® Translation)

 

Versus The Cosmology Of The Living God

 

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Revelations 22:13-15 (Kings James Version)

 

Of Abraham, Isaac And Jacob

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[LookingForAnswers]

Doing a bit more research I have found a couple of sites that claim James Gun, the one the quote above is actually attributed to has denied the quote.  I cannot find his own words yet, but I am looking.   In any case, he considers himself a cosmologists and won a nice little award..

 

The 2005 Cosmology Prize of The Peter Gruber Foundation is presented to James Gunn, Eugene Higgins Professor of Astronomy at Princeton University Observatory, for his central contributions to the theoretical, observational and instrumental development of modern cosmology.

 

 

http://www.iau.org/grants_prizes/gruber_foundation/cosmology_prize/recipients/prize2005/

 

and another....http://news.sciencemag.org/2005/01/cosmology-pays

 

The Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences announced the recipients of the 2005 Crafoord Prize today in Stockholm. James Gunn, James Peebles, and Martin Rees will share $500,000 for their work on the large-scale structure of the Universe.

The Crafoord Prize was established in 1980 by Holger Crafoord, the inventor of the artificial kidney, and his wife Anna-Greta. It is awarded each year for outstanding research in mathematics, astronomy, ecology, or geosciences--disciplines often ignored by the Academy's Nobel Prize.

Cosmologists James Gunn and James Peebles, both at Princeton University, and Martin Rees, at Cambridge University, United Kingdom, made revolutionary contributions to the understanding of how the universe evolved from a smooth primordial soup of particles and radiation into a rich diversity of stars arranged in galaxies and clusters. All three are theorists, but Gunn is also lead project scientist of the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, the largest project to date to map the 3-dimensional distribution of galaxies. The prize will be awarded in September.

 

 

Odd that science organizations would give science awards to a non-science.  I guess the science community does not really agree with the thought put out there by certain YEC websites.

[Guest]

Doing a bit more research I have found a couple of sites that claim James Gun, the one the quote above

 

Beloved Which Quote Are You Discussing?

[LookingForAnswers]

 

Doing a bit more research I have found a couple of sites that claim James Gun, the one the quote above

 

Beloved Which Quote Are You Discussing?

 

 

This quote which has been attributed to Adrian Cho, but was maybe said by James Gunn...but perhaps not.

 

“Cosmology may look like a science, but it isn’t a science. A basic tenet of science is that you can do repeatable experiments, and you can’t do that in cosmology.”