A Soul’s Salvation Could Hinge On the Earth’s Age

[alphaparticle]

 

Which claims of scripture are essential for salvation?

 

There is a difference between talking about what pertains to salvation and what is essential to salvation.  Genesis does pertain to salvation.   The need for salvation is establsihed in Genesis because of the fall of man in the Garden   The first Messianic Prophecy about Jesus and salvation is made in Genesis.   Genesis 1-3 establishes Jesus as the sovereign Creator, Righteous Redeemer and Eternal Judge of mankind.  Genesis is where the Abrahamic Covenant is first cut which is a type of the New Covenent cut in Jesus blood through which we get salvation.

 

The problem is that when you around trying to claim that Genesis can't be taken literally, you do immeasurable harm to the Scriptures pertaining to salvation in Genesis.  I am not saying that if you don't believe in YEC that you are not a Christian.   I am saying that the whole earth age debate isn't about the age of the earth.  It is about indoctrination into the myth of Evolution, which usually ends up producing theologically and spritually immature and inept Christians, or it ends up enabling some people's embrace of atheism.  

 

Thanks for clearing up this distinction.

 

I think you overestimate the linkage conceptually between evolution, the fall, and the need for salvation. I can see it is all very tightly linked in your mind, very well. I don't think any of that has to follow. Evolution could be true and the fall be a historical fact, specifically involving a specific man and woman named Adam and Eve. The fall could be non historical and still be true insofar as humans are fallen and separated from God. That we are fallen and separated from God is a fact that we could ascertain even apart from knowing anything about Genesis at all.

Granting that you are right, that YEC is the only legitimate way to interpret Genesis and is true about the world, it still seems possible to me for believers to grow in faith and so on without granting that. Moreover, if you are right, I would expect that in the lives of individual believers the Spirit might very well lead people to your conclusion. I can see why you or others would argue it, insofar as you think it is true and I agree that truth is important, but I think you underestimate the harm that is done by your rhetoric going the other way- that people get the impression that the only way to really be a Christian is to embrace YEC, which just seems utterly impossible to many.

 

Given that it is not necessary to salvation, I question the usefulness in such heavy-handed rhetoric. I think it is *essential* that seekers, Christians in the sciences etc., realize that there are believers out there who think the the universe is old, that the earth is old and there are plenty of believers out there who think that evolution is the case (though divinely guided).

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

The Bible is not a book where you can divorce the beginning from the end.

Yes you can.

The Gospel depends on a literal interpretation of Genesis from beginning to end. The Gospel is more than just "Jesus died on the cross for your sins." That is the heart of it, but that is not where it stops or starts. The Gospel begins in Genesis. If Genesis doesn't really mean what it says, the apostles and Jesus himself were deluded and the death of Jesus on the cross was a meaningless act.

Not at all. I believe that we are sinful and need of a Savior. I also believe evolution happened, under God's guidance. Whether you think this is a coherent view or not, it's a possible one. Insisting that people deny the mainstream scientific picture in totality is an unnecessary barrier.

Sorry but Evolution and the Bible don't mix. You can't be a true evolutionist and a Bible believer, any more than you can be an agnostic or an atheist and still be a Christian.

The Bible doesn't make room for evolution. Maybe they can be mixed in your theologically unsophisticated imagination, but they don't mix in reality. The claims of Scripture are not compatible with Evolution and only someone who is willing to be honest about the text of the Bible can understand that. Evidently, you are not willing to be.

Very controversial comment you made here Shiloh, and one that I don't believe is your call. In particular your comment-

"You can't be a true evolutionist and a bible believer..."

At least you didn't say, " and a true believer..."

But, to say that everyone who believes in evolution CANNOT BELIEVE in the bible rubs me very wrong. I don't think I'm alone either. And for your benefit, I do believe in micro evolution, but not macro evolution.

 

If Evolution (macro) is true, the Bible is  erroneous.  Macro evolution stabs at the heart of the Bible's authority which calls everything the Bible teaches into question at the most fundamental level.   If macro evolution is true, man never fell in the Garden, the Bible's claims to the origin of sin or even sin's existence is suspect due to the fact that in the basic concept of evolution, man isn't created in God's image at all.   He is just another cog in the wheel, an accident. nothing more than a higher animal/primate, or a collection of chemicals and molecules. 

 

There is a very good reason why evolution is seen as an alterative to Genesis and not a complimentary addition to it.  Even nonChristians are honest enough to admit the fact that Evolution is completely incompaptible with Genesis 1-11.   There is no way a genuine follower of Jesus can also faithfully adhere to macro-evolution.  The claims of the Bible make no room for it.

 

Unfortunately, many are not theologically equipped to see the problem.  The divorce faith in Christ from the rest of the Bible and that is a fundamental theological error.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Thanks for clearing up this distinction.

 

I think you overestimate the linkage conceptually between evolution, the fall, and the need for salvation.

I am not oversating it all.   The Bible makes the direct connection.  I am simply reflecting how the Bible connects the fall and salvation and the fact is that the claims of Evolution fly directly in the face of what the Bible says.  You are simply not theologically equipped or you are simply unwilling to see the connection.

 

I can see it is all very tightly linked in your mind, very well. I don't think any of that has to follow. Evolution could be true and the fall be a historical fact, specifically involving a specific man and woman named Adam and Eve. The fall could be non historical and still be true insofar as humans are fallen and separated from God. That we are fallen and separated from God is a fact that we could ascertain even apart from knowing anything about Genesis at all.

 

No, you can't and the Bible makes that clear. Only in your imagination is such a thing possible.   You are so committed to Evolution that the Bible's claims are pretty much expendable and unecessary whenever you need them to be, as you are illustrating in the above comment.   According to you, we don't need the Bible's explanation for the origin of sin.  You are proving a point that I made on another thread about how Darwinism erodes the Bible's authority.   The bottom line is that for you science is the authority and the Bible is useful until it and science collide. 

 

Without Genesis you cannot:

 

1. Explain the origin of sin

2  You cannot explain why man is a sinner

3. You cannot explain why Jesus is the last Adam

4. You cannot explain the need for Jesus to die for sin that doesn't exist.

 

Granting that you are right, that YEC is the only legitimate way to interpret Genesis and is true about the world, it still seems possible to me for believers to grow in faith and so on without granting that. Moreover, if you are right, I would expect that in the lives of individual believers the Spirit might very well lead people to your conclusion. I can see why you or others would argue it, insofar as you think it is true and I agree that truth is important, but I think you underestimate the harm that is done by your rhetoric going the other way- that people get the impression that the only way to really be a Christian is to embrace YEC, which just seems utterly impossible to many.

 

Which is not what I said, but I understand the need to paint my responses that way in the absence of the ability to respond to me without misrepresenting what I said.

 

Given that it is not necessary to salvation, I question the usefulness in such heavy-handed rhetoric. I think it is *essential* that seekers, Christians in the sciences etc., realize that there are believers out there who think the the universe is old, that the earth is old and there are plenty of believers out there who think that evolution is the case (though divinely guided).

 

I have found a lot of religionists who are evolutionists.  I have not found that a lot of "belevers"  who claim evolution also tend to question the Bible's authority in other areas.   They tend to support gay marriage, abortion, and deny the inerrancy and accuracy of Scripture.   None of that is surprising since they have already established the low estimation they have for the Bible in the first place.   

[alphaparticle]

 

 

Thanks for clearing up this distinction.

 

I think you overestimate the linkage conceptually between evolution, the fall, and the need for salvation.

I am not oversating it all.   The Bible makes the direct connection.  I am simply reflecting how the Bible connects the fall and salvation and the fact is that the claims of Evolution fly directly in the face of what the Bible says.  You are simply not theologically equipped or you are simply unwilling to see the connection.

 

Constantly impugning  my motives or accusing me of ignorance doesn't really further the discussion. You've said this before.

 

 

 

I can see it is all very tightly linked in your mind, very well. I don't think any of that has to follow. Evolution could be true and the fall be a historical fact, specifically involving a specific man and woman named Adam and Eve. The fall could be non historical and still be true insofar as humans are fallen and separated from God. That we are fallen and separated from God is a fact that we could ascertain even apart from knowing anything about Genesis at all.

 

No, you can't and the Bible makes that clear. Only in your imagination is such a thing possible.   You are so committed to Evolution that the Bible's claims are pretty much expendable and unecessary whenever you need them to be, as you are illustrating in the above comment.   According to you, we don't need the Bible's explanation for the origin of sin.  You are proving a point that I made on another thread about how Darwinism erodes the Bible's authority.   The bottom line is that for you science is the authority and the Bible is useful until it and science collide. 

 

Without Genesis you cannot:

 

1. Explain the origin of sin

2  You cannot explain why man is a sinner

3. You cannot explain why Jesus is the last Adam

4. You cannot explain the need for Jesus to die for sin that doesn't exist.

 

1. separation from God

2. why? again, it's a fact we observe, we are clearly separated from God and all of us have sin

3. insofar as Adam stands for, as a literal person or  not, the fall of humanity, yes I can. (and I am not committing myself to the notion there is no historical Adam here, by the way).

4. What? it's clear we are sinners separated from God, whatever else you want to argue. That this is so is one of the empirically verifiable aspects of Christianity.

 

 

 

 

Granting that you are right, that YEC is the only legitimate way to interpret Genesis and is true about the world, it still seems possible to me for believers to grow in faith and so on without granting that. Moreover, if you are right, I would expect that in the lives of individual believers the Spirit might very well lead people to your conclusion. I can see why you or others would argue it, insofar as you think it is true and I agree that truth is important, but I think you underestimate the harm that is done by your rhetoric going the other way- that people get the impression that the only way to really be a Christian is to embrace YEC, which just seems utterly impossible to many.

 

Which is not what I said, but I understand the need to paint my responses that way in the absence of the ability to respond to me without misrepresenting what I said.

 

 

Any misrepresentation is completely unintentional. I'm not even sure what you are disagreeing with here.

 

 

Given that it is not necessary to salvation, I question the usefulness in such heavy-handed rhetoric. I think it is *essential* that seekers, Christians in the sciences etc., realize that there are believers out there who think the the universe is old, that the earth is old and there are plenty of believers out there who think that evolution is the case (though divinely guided).

 

I have found a lot of religionists who are evolutionists.  I have not found that a lot of "belevers"  who claim evolution also tend to question the Bible's authority in other areas.   They tend to support gay marriage, abortion, and deny the inerrancy and accuracy of Scripture.   None of that is surprising since they have already established the low estimation they have for the Bible in the first place.   

 

 

 

Alright sure. But there are religionists the other way aren't there? those who claim to believe the Bible in every matter but turn the gospel into heavy handed legalism, as an example. That people can abuse positions doesn't make the positions themselves intrinsically bad.

 

My concern isn't with the ultra liberal Christian who sees Jesus as nothing but an enlightened moral teacher. Yes that type will be embracing evolution along with many other things. My concern is with the genuine believer in the gospel, or the sincere seeker, for whom YEC is an impenetrable stumbling block.

[Spock]

Before we get deeper in, may I first stop and see if we all agree on what I call the salvation foundation first and foremost:

1. Whether one is truly saved or not is for God and God alone to decide, not you or me

2. Salvation is BY FAITH ALONE in what Christ did at Calvary. Do you believe Christ is the son of God and died to pay the penalty you (and me of course) deserve for sins committed?

3. Nothing can be added to #2 to meet the criteria necessary for ones salvation

4. If one passes Gods test (#2), then many other beliefs one may have, even erroneous or misguided, will not cause one to lose their salvation

5. Once you have passed the #2 test, your belief in age of the earth, abortion, gay marriage, Calvinism, speaking in tongues, transubstantiation, women ministers, what Bible translation is the best, pre trib, post trib, mid trib or pan trib, etc are all non essential issues that have no bearing on ones salvation

Do we all agree with these five axioms?

The reason I want to lay this foundation is because the title of this thread, " a souls salvation could hinge on the age of the earth" somewhat sends up a red flag to me. Before even getting into the posts, Someone reading this title could already be confused. I think it wise to lay this foundation first so that when we get deeper, we all agree these five axioms are on HOLY GROUND and are a given.

Agreed?

[Guest shiloh357]

Before we get deeper in, may I first stop and see if we all agree on what I call the salvation foundation first and foremost:

1. Whether one is truly saved or not is for God and God alone to decide, not you or me

2. Salvation is BY FAITH ALONE in what Christ did at Calvary. Do you believe Christ is the son of God and died to pay the penalty you (and me of course) deserve for sins committed?

3. Nothing can be added to #2 to meet the criteria necessary for ones salvation

4. If one passes Gods test (#2), then many other beliefs one may have, even erroneous or misguided, will not cause one to lose their salvation

5. Once you have passed the #2 test, your belief in age of the earth, abortion, gay marriage, Calvinism, speaking in tongues, transubstantiation, women ministers, what Bible translation is the best, pre trib, post trib, mid trib or pan trib, etc are all non essential issues that have no bearing on ones salvation

Do we all agree with these five axioms?

The reason I want to lay this foundation is because the title of this thread, " a souls salvation could hinge on the age of the earth" somewhat sends up a red flag to me. Before even getting into the posts, Someone reading this title could already be confused. I think it wise to lay this foundation first so that when we get deeper, we all agree these five axioms are on HOLY GROUND and are a given.

Agreed?

Spock,  you are somewhat confused.    I have never stated that there was anything outside of faith in Jesus and His finished work on the cross that can be added as a requirement for salvation.  I have never stated that anything outside of faith in Christ was essential for salvation.

 

The point I am endeavoring to make is precisely the point the article makes and that is that in the secular world, OEC is a gateway to make Evolution more palatable to young minds, particularly those who are sitting on the fence when it comes to trusting the Bible.

 

There are, as I have pointed out previously, atheists on this very board that have claimed over the years that it was evolution and the time they spent studying evolution and the view of the old earth that finally caused them to discard the Bible as a reliable or trustworthy book.

 

The issue I and the article are raising is not about what is required for salvation.  The issue is how things like OEC and Evolution carry the very real potential of causing nonbelievers to doubt the Bible's veracity.   When the Bible's trustworthiness is doubted in one or two areas, it sets a precedent that allows people to doubt the Bible's veracity when it comes to important issues like salvation.   If the Bible got it wrong in chapter one, if God is wrong coming out of the gate, what is stop Him from being wrong in other parts of the Bible as well.

 

In addition I would also like to note that there are things in Scripture that while not essential for salvation are essential in terms of being biblically well grounded.  You lump the age of the earth, gay marriage and abortion with issue like speaking in tounges, the timing of the rapture, but those are entirely dissimlar things.  Where a person stands on gay marriage and abortion is often very telling in terms of how they view the Bible and how they view God.

 

There are a lot of people who think they are Christians because they believe the right things and say the right things.   Their notion of being a Christian stems from believing a set of propositional truths, and they mistake that for being a "Christian."    Being a Christian isn't merely acknowledging the right things.  It is about a relationship with God, about being born again.   No amount of right believing can substitute for that.   Those people are the kinds of people who end up abandoning their faith at the first challenge to what they believe, because their beliefs are no rooted in a real relationship with God.  

 

They often abandon the faith because science has taught them that the Bible is wrong about the following:

 

• The age of the earth
• The creation of earth
• The origin of life
• The existence and origin of sin
• The historicity of Adam and Eve
• The global flood

If an unbeleiver is taught that the Bible is wrong aobut all of those things, why would he/she have a reason to trust the Bible at any other point?   That is where all of this leads.

[LookingForAnswers]

 

Before we get deeper in, may I first stop and see if we all agree on what I call the salvation foundation first and foremost:

1. Whether one is truly saved or not is for God and God alone to decide, not you or me

2. Salvation is BY FAITH ALONE in what Christ did at Calvary. Do you believe Christ is the son of God and died to pay the penalty you (and me of course) deserve for sins committed?

3. Nothing can be added to #2 to meet the criteria necessary for ones salvation

4. If one passes Gods test (#2), then many other beliefs one may have, even erroneous or misguided, will not cause one to lose their salvation

5. Once you have passed the #2 test, your belief in age of the earth, abortion, gay marriage, Calvinism, speaking in tongues, transubstantiation, women ministers, what Bible translation is the best, pre trib, post trib, mid trib or pan trib, etc are all non essential issues that have no bearing on ones salvation

Do we all agree with these five axioms?

The reason I want to lay this foundation is because the title of this thread, " a souls salvation could hinge on the age of the earth" somewhat sends up a red flag to me. Before even getting into the posts, Someone reading this title could already be confused. I think it wise to lay this foundation first so that when we get deeper, we all agree these five axioms are on HOLY GROUND and are a given.

Agreed?

Spock,  you are somewhat confused.    I have never stated that there was anything outside of faith in Jesus and His finished work on the cross that can be added as a requirement for salvation.  I have never stated that anything outside of faith in Christ was essential for salvation.

 

The point I am endeavoring to make is precisely the point the article makes and that is that in the secular world, OEC is a gateway to make Evolution more palatable to young minds, particularly those who are sitting on the fence when it comes to trusting the Bible.

 

There are, as I have pointed out previously, atheists on this very board that have claimed over the years that it was evolution and the time they spent studying evolution and the view of the old earth that finally caused them to discard the Bible as a reliable or trustworthy book.

 

The issue I and the article are raising is not about what is required for salvation.  The issue is how things like OEC and Evolution carry the very real potential of causing nonbelievers to doubt the Bible's veracity.   When the Bible's trustworthiness is doubted in one or two areas, it sets a precedent that allows people to doubt the Bible's veracity when it comes to important issues like salvation.   If the Bible got it wrong in chapter one, if God is wrong coming out of the gate, what is stop Him from being wrong in other parts of the Bible as well.

 

In addition I would also like to note that there are things in Scripture that while not essential for salvation are essential in terms of being biblically well grounded.  You lump the age of the earth, gay marriage and abortion with issue like speaking in tounges, the timing of the rapture, but those are entirely dissimlar things.  Where a person stands on gay marriage and abortion is often very telling in terms of how they view the Bible and how they view God.

 

There are a lot of people who think they are Christians because they believe the right things and say the right things.   Their notion of being a Christian stems from believing a set of propositional truths, and they mistake that for being a "Christian."    Being a Christian isn't merely acknowledging the right things.  It is about a relationship with God, about being born again.   No amount of right believing can substitute for that.   Those people are the kinds of people who end up abandoning their faith at the first challenge to what they believe, because their beliefs are no rooted in a real relationship with God.  

 

They often abandon the faith because science has taught them that the Bible is wrong about the following:

 

• The age of the earth
• The creation of earth
• The origin of life
• The existence and origin of sin
• The historicity of Adam and Eve
• The global flood

If an unbeleiver is taught that the Bible is wrong aobut all of those things, why would he/she have a reason to trust the Bible at any other point?   That is where all of this leads.

 

 

Why do you keep lumping OEC and Evolution together, you know this is false and yet you do it with almost every post.  OEC does not teach that the bible is wrong on any of those things, with the possible exception of the flood being global or worldwide.   OEC does not teach the bible is wrong on the age of the earth, or the creation of earth, or the origin of life, or the the existence and origin of sin, or the historicity of Adam and Eve.  No matter how much you want it to be true, it just isnt.  So, I would ask you as one brother to another to stop repeating this falsehood.

[Spock]

Before we get deeper in, may I first stop and see if we all agree on what I call the salvation foundation first and foremost:

1. Whether one is truly saved or not is for God and God alone to decide, not you or me

2. Salvation is BY FAITH ALONE in what Christ did at Calvary. Do you believe Christ is the son of God and died to pay the penalty you (and me of course) deserve for sins committed?

3. Nothing can be added to #2 to meet the criteria necessary for ones salvation

4. If one passes Gods test (#2), then many other beliefs one may have, even erroneous or misguided, will not cause one to lose their salvation

5. Once you have passed the #2 test, your belief in age of the earth, abortion, gay marriage, Calvinism, speaking in tongues, transubstantiation, women ministers, what Bible translation is the best, pre trib, post trib, mid trib or pan trib, etc are all non essential issues that have no bearing on ones salvation

Do we all agree with these five axioms?

The reason I want to lay this foundation is because the title of this thread, " a souls salvation could hinge on the age of the earth" somewhat sends up a red flag to me. Before even getting into the posts, Someone reading this title could already be confused. I think it wise to lay this foundation first so that when we get deeper, we all agree these five axioms are on HOLY GROUND and are a given.

Agreed?

Spock,  you are somewhat confused.    I have never stated that there was anything outside of faith in Jesus and His finished work on the cross that can be added as a requirement for salvation.  I have never stated that anything outside of faith in Christ was essential for salvation.

 

The point I am endeavoring to make is precisely the point the article makes and that is that in the secular world, OEC is a gateway to make Evolution more palatable to young minds, particularly those who are sitting on the fence when it comes to trusting the Bible.

 

There are, as I have pointed out previously, atheists on this very board that have claimed over the years that it was evolution and the time they spent studying evolution and the view of the old earth that finally caused them to discard the Bible as a reliable or trustworthy book.

 

The issue I and the article are raising is not about what is required for salvation.  The issue is how things like OEC and Evolution carry the very real potential of causing nonbelievers to doubt the Bible's veracity.   When the Bible's trustworthiness is doubted in one or two areas, it sets a precedent that allows people to doubt the Bible's veracity when it comes to important issues like salvation.   If the Bible got it wrong in chapter one, if God is wrong coming out of the gate, what is stop Him from being wrong in other parts of the Bible as well.

 

In addition I would also like to note that there are things in Scripture that while not essential for salvation are essential in terms of being biblically well grounded.  You lump the age of the earth, gay marriage and abortion with issue like speaking in tounges, the timing of the rapture, but those are entirely dissimlar things.  Where a person stands on gay marriage and abortion is often very telling in terms of how they view the Bible and how they view God.

 

There are a lot of people who think they are Christians because they believe the right things and say the right things.   Their notion of being a Christian stems from believing a set of propositional truths, and they mistake that for being a "Christian."    Being a Christian isn't merely acknowledging the right things.  It is about a relationship with God, about being born again.   No amount of right believing can substitute for that.   Those people are the kinds of people who end up abandoning their faith at the first challenge to what they believe, because their beliefs are no rooted in a real relationship with God.  

 

They often abandon the faith because science has taught them that the Bible is wrong about the following:

 

• The age of the earth
• The creation of earth
• The origin of life
• The existence and origin of sin
• The historicity of Adam and Eve
• The global flood

If an unbeleiver is taught that the Bible is wrong aobut all of those things, why would he/she have a reason to trust the Bible at any other point?   That is where all of this leads.

Couldn't you just have said, Agreed.

[OneLight]

Despite all the theological bickering, salvation DOES NOT hinge on age of the earth, it hinges on Christ Jesus and our acceptance of Him.  A person can be saved while not knowing anything about Genesis 1 or any of the OT, as long as they accept Jesus as the Son of the Father and His death and being raised from the dead.
 
John 10:9
I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
 
Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.
 
Acts 4:12
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
 
Acts 16:30-31
And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
 
Romans 10:8-10
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

There are many more verses stating the same, salvation through Christ Jesus and Him alone.  Everything else comes after one is saved, despite what anyone tries to say.

[Guest shiloh357]

Despite all the theological bickering, salvation DOES NOT hinge on age of the earth, it hinges on Christ Jesus and our acceptance of Him.  A person can be saved while not knowing anything about Genesis 1 or any of the OT, as long as they accept Jesus as the Son of the Father and His death and being raised from the dead.

 

John 10:9

I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

 

Acts 2:21

And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.

 

Acts 4:12

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

 

Acts 16:30-31

And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

 

Romans 10:8-10

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

There are many more verses stating the same, salvation through Christ Jesus and Him alone.  Everything else comes after one is saved, despite what anyone tries to say.

Yes, Onelight.  No one has said anything different.