Guest shiloh357 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Before we get deeper in, may I first stop and see if we all agree on what I call the salvation foundation first and foremost: 1. Whether one is truly saved or not is for God and God alone to decide, not you or me 2. Salvation is BY FAITH ALONE in what Christ did at Calvary. Do you believe Christ is the son of God and died to pay the penalty you (and me of course) deserve for sins committed? 3. Nothing can be added to #2 to meet the criteria necessary for ones salvation 4. If one passes Gods test (#2), then many other beliefs one may have, even erroneous or misguided, will not cause one to lose their salvation 5. Once you have passed the #2 test, your belief in age of the earth, abortion, gay marriage, Calvinism, speaking in tongues, transubstantiation, women ministers, what Bible translation is the best, pre trib, post trib, mid trib or pan trib, etc are all non essential issues that have no bearing on ones salvation Do we all agree with these five axioms? The reason I want to lay this foundation is because the title of this thread, " a souls salvation could hinge on the age of the earth" somewhat sends up a red flag to me. Before even getting into the posts, Someone reading this title could already be confused. I think it wise to lay this foundation first so that when we get deeper, we all agree these five axioms are on HOLY GROUND and are a given. Agreed? Spock, you are somewhat confused. I have never stated that there was anything outside of faith in Jesus and His finished work on the cross that can be added as a requirement for salvation. I have never stated that anything outside of faith in Christ was essential for salvation. The point I am endeavoring to make is precisely the point the article makes and that is that in the secular world, OEC is a gateway to make Evolution more palatable to young minds, particularly those who are sitting on the fence when it comes to trusting the Bible. There are, as I have pointed out previously, atheists on this very board that have claimed over the years that it was evolution and the time they spent studying evolution and the view of the old earth that finally caused them to discard the Bible as a reliable or trustworthy book. The issue I and the article are raising is not about what is required for salvation. The issue is how things like OEC and Evolution carry the very real potential of causing nonbelievers to doubt the Bible's veracity. When the Bible's trustworthiness is doubted in one or two areas, it sets a precedent that allows people to doubt the Bible's veracity when it comes to important issues like salvation. If the Bible got it wrong in chapter one, if God is wrong coming out of the gate, what is stop Him from being wrong in other parts of the Bible as well. In addition I would also like to note that there are things in Scripture that while not essential for salvation are essential in terms of being biblically well grounded. You lump the age of the earth, gay marriage and abortion with issue like speaking in tounges, the timing of the rapture, but those are entirely dissimlar things. Where a person stands on gay marriage and abortion is often very telling in terms of how they view the Bible and how they view God. There are a lot of people who think they are Christians because they believe the right things and say the right things. Their notion of being a Christian stems from believing a set of propositional truths, and they mistake that for being a "Christian." Being a Christian isn't merely acknowledging the right things. It is about a relationship with God, about being born again. No amount of right believing can substitute for that. Those people are the kinds of people who end up abandoning their faith at the first challenge to what they believe, because their beliefs are no rooted in a real relationship with God. They often abandon the faith because science has taught them that the Bible is wrong about the following: The age of the earth The creation of earth The origin of life The existence and origin of sin The historicity of Adam and Eve The global flood If an unbeleiver is taught that the Bible is wrong aobut all of those things, why would he/she have a reason to trust the Bible at any other point? That is where all of this leads. Couldn't you just have said, Agreed. No, because the problem is that you are trying refute an argument I never raised and that needed to be pointed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2014 Yes, Onelight. No one has said anything different.Sorry, Brother, but the title does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted January 22, 2014 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2014 Despite all the theological bickering, salvation DOES NOT hinge on age of the earth, it hinges on Christ Jesus and our acceptance of Him. A person can be saved while not knowing anything about Genesis 1 or any of the OT, as long as they accept Jesus as the Son of the Father and His death and being raised from the dead. John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. Acts 16:30-31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Romans 10:8-10 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. There are many more verses stating the same, salvation through Christ Jesus and Him alone. Everything else comes after one is saved, despite what anyone tries to say. Yes, Onelight. No one has said anything different. The title of the thread does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 22, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,043 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,785 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2014 Despite all the theological bickering, salvation DOES NOT hinge on age of the earth, it hinges on Christ Jesus and our acceptance of Him. A person can be saved while not knowing anything about Genesis 1 or any of the OT, as long as they accept Jesus as the Son of the Father and His death and being raised from the dead. . But the question I have is that if you can't trust the Bible in how it all started, can you trust the Bible as to who Jesus is?? I agree that a person can be saved without ever even reading Genesis..... or the Bible for that matter..... but if they do read it and can't agree with any of it, will they accept any of the rest of it.... If they are educated in our schools today and I tell them of the first six chapters of Genesis, will they listen to me as I tell them of the rest of the story. I personally know people who have said no. All those that I personally know are heavy evolutionists and it is largely because of that that they will not Accept the Bible as something to trust. So unless you want to take the Calvinist approach that it just wasn't Gods will that those people be saved then I would have to say that from personal experienced that not trusting the first six chapters of Genesis can cause a person to reject Jesus as who he is, and that could cost a person their soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted January 22, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.88 Content Count: 43,795 Content Per Day: 6.22 Reputation: 11,242 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2014 When I first got saved, I came from the secular evolution is true viewpoint. It took years before I shook that. According to the title of this thread, I was apparently unsaved all those years I thought I was saved. Which is nonsense. I know I was saved when I believed in Jesus. Not when I believed in yec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2014 But the question I have is that if you can't trust the Bible in how it all started, can you trust the Bible as to who Jesus is?? I agree that a person can be saved without ever even reading Genesis..... or the Bible for that matter..... but if they do read it and can't agree with any of it, will they accept any of the rest of it.... If they are educated in our schools today and I tell them of the first six chapters of Genesis, will they listen to me as I tell them of the rest of the story. I personally know people who have said no. All those that I personally know are heavy evolutionists and it is largely because of that that they will not Accept the Bible as something to trust. So unless you want to take the Calvinist approach that it just wasn't Gods will that those people be saved then I would have to say that from personal experienced that not trusting the first six chapters of Genesis can cause a person to reject Jesus as who he is, and that could cost a person their soul.Did you understand all you read in scripture before salvation? I didn't. It took the Holy Spirit to teach me, be it through His word only or through another, but it took Him and we cannot receive Him until we accept Christ. There are also others who accept creation but reject Jesus as the Son of God. Having head knowledge does not save, only He saves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 22, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,043 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,785 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2014 But the question I have is that if you can't trust the Bible in how it all started, can you trust the Bible as to who Jesus is?? I agree that a person can be saved without ever even reading Genesis..... or the Bible for that matter..... but if they do read it and can't agree with any of it, will they accept any of the rest of it.... If they are educated in our schools today and I tell them of the first six chapters of Genesis, will they listen to me as I tell them of the rest of the story. I personally know people who have said no. All those that I personally know are heavy evolutionists and it is largely because of that that they will not Accept the Bible as something to trust. So unless you want to take the Calvinist approach that it just wasn't Gods will that those people be saved then I would have to say that from personal experienced that not trusting the first six chapters of Genesis can cause a person to reject Jesus as who he is, and that could cost a person their soul. Did you understand all you read in scripture before salvation? I didn't. It took the Holy Spirit to teach me, be it through His word only or through another, but it took Him and we cannot receive Him until we accept Christ. There are also others who accept creation but reject Jesus as the Son of God. Having head knowledge does not save, only He saves. Actually yes I did.... I had read the Bible several times, but I also think one must actually Confess Jesus as Lord before they can attain a state of salvation, and not simply believe he is who he says he is..... and I did not really do that for until I was in my thirties. I just couldn't turn loose of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JtotheP Posted January 22, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 10 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/06/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) I, too, had the notion of an evolutionary world view when I was saved. And I would agree with Shiloh that there is no room in the Bible for (macro) evolution--it's just a cruel and inefficient way for God to create. It wasn't until I became saved and was motivated to look into the evidence myself that evolution is just impossible, no matter how long of a time period you can give it. So to an OE understanding, in my mind, doesn't leave room for evolution. However, I do understand how it is a stumbling block because the lie of evolution is taught to need time. The title of the thread is certainly misleading, but his link to the article is what I believe he was referring to. Edited January 22, 2014 by JtotheP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 The title of the thread does. No, it doesn't. It says exactly what the article says. I would expect people to respond to the substance and not the title. It doesn't say that salvation is based on what you believe about the age of the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) But the question I have is that if you can't trust the Bible in how it all started, can you trust the Bible as to who Jesus is?? I agree that a person can be saved without ever even reading Genesis..... or the Bible for that matter..... but if they do read it and can't agree with any of it, will they accept any of the rest of it.... If they are educated in our schools today and I tell them of the first six chapters of Genesis, will they listen to me as I tell them of the rest of the story. I personally know people who have said no. All those that I personally know are heavy evolutionists and it is largely because of that that they will not Accept the Bible as something to trust. So unless you want to take the Calvinist approach that it just wasn't Gods will that those people be saved then I would have to say that from personal experienced that not trusting the first six chapters of Genesis can cause a person to reject Jesus as who he is, and that could cost a person their soul. Did you understand all you read in scripture before salvation? I didn't. It took the Holy Spirit to teach me, be it through His word only or through another, but it took Him and we cannot receive Him until we accept Christ. There are also others who accept creation but reject Jesus as the Son of God. Having head knowledge does not save, only He saves. I think you are confusing issues, here. The point of the OP is not about what it takes to get saved. It is about the fact that if you are educated to believe that the first half of Genesis isn't true, a precedent has been set to distrust the rest of the Bible. One of our own members was raised in church but now questions her faith due to what she learned in school from those who taught her not trust the Bible. Her journey down that road began with university science professors that taught her that the Bible says can't be trusted. Edited January 22, 2014 by shiloh357 Removed members name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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