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The Gospel for a Gay Friend


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Guest shiloh357

 

 

Actually "judging" (as a sin) is concluding that something bad about someone is so without sufficient evidence; or assuming what is in the heart which only the Lord knows.

 

If you know someone is is having sex with someone else of the same sex, by their own admission, then pointing out it is sin is not judging because the evidence has already been supplied.  And that isn't even what we are talking about.  No one is being judged in the thread.  Jerry doesn't think gay sex is a sin.

But what if homosexuality is not a sin? A sin should be something that is known to have a negative effect on the person and the community, and homosexuality does neither of those.

 

No, that is not how sin is defined.   A sin is any personal lack of comformity to the character and nature of o God.  God says that homosexuality is a sin and He says so in several places in the Bible.  So your question, "what if homosexuality is not a sin" is answered. It is a sin and there is no other way to look at it from the Bible.  Sin is not defined by its effect on society.  It is defined by what the Bible says it is.

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Guest shiloh357

 

The Gospel is the same for all.

We are all sinners.

Christ paid for our sins on the cross.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

Are you implying that I am not saved? I believe in Christ, that is enough for me, or anyone to be saved.

 

Not really.   Salvation is not based on accepting a set of propositional truths from the Bible.   Salvation begins with understanding that you are a sinner in God's eyes.  It means accepting God's definition of sin.  Salvation means repenting and forsaking your sin and making Jesus both Lord and Savior.   As it stands, you appear to assent to believing in Jesus, as if that is all there is. 

 

Salvation affects a total change a transformation of the heart.  Without that transformation having taken place, you are still in your sins.  You may have religion, but you have not made a genuine decision to accept Jesus as Lord.

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There is some confusion here that might only be semantics:

 

When Shiloh says that conversion effects a total transformation of the heart, I doubt (correct me here Shiloh) he means that all Christians are now perfect.

 

Now, Shiloh, do you think that, whereas other vices or at least the temptation towards them (the "desire" or impulse to steal, lie, or lust (same sex here)) will abide post-conversion, yet same-sex attractions must be completely obliterated, and any residual attraction even if not acted upon and in fact shunned once felt, is a clear sign that conversion did not occur?  

 

Or do you merely mean the embrace of that lifestyle, the conviction that, this too is honored by God, must be abandoned?  A Christian can still "feel" same-sex attractions, but the sign of his conversion is his persistent effort to put them out of his mind.  If that is what you mean, then we need to define "homosexual" a little more closely.  A homosexual Christian would merely mean one who was not attracted to the opposite sex, but abstained from any form of sexual behavior with those of the same sex.

 

clb

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Guest shiloh357

There is some confusion here that might only be semantics:

 

When Shiloh says that conversion effects a total transformation of the heart, I doubt (correct me here Shiloh) he means that all Christians are now perfect.

 

Now, Shiloh, do you think that, whereas other vices or at least the temptation towards them (the "desire" or impulse to steal, lie, or lust (same sex here)) will abide post-conversion, yet same-sex attractions must be completely obliterated, and any residual attraction even if not acted upon and in fact shunned once felt, is a clear sign that conversion did not occur?  

 

Or do you merely mean the embrace of that lifestyle, the conviction that, this too is honored by God, must be abandoned?  A Christian can still "feel" same-sex attractions, but the sign of his conversion is his persistent effort to put them out of his mind.  If that is what you mean, then we need to define "homosexual" a little more closely.  A homosexual Christian would merely mean one who was not attracted to the opposite sex, but abstained from any form of sexual behavior with those of the same sex.

 

clb

I am saying that it is impossible for one to be a practicing homosexual and be a Christian.   It is not a sin to be tempted, even in the area of same-sex attraction.  The sin lies in entertaining the temptation.  I know of former homosexuals who still struggle with this temptation.  The key is that they struggle.  Were they not genuine Christians, they would seek to defend and justify same-sex attraction. They don't believe it is okay to feel the desire.  It is just a much a sin to entertain sin in one's heart, as it is to commit it in the flesh.

 

It is also a sin to accept homosexuality as normal and acceptable.  Those who defend homosexuality are committing sin, as they are defying the clear precepts laid down in Scripture that state that such a lifestyle is a sin. 

 

"Homosexual Christian" is an oxymmoron.  One cannot be saved and remain gay.  Entertaining and accepting the desires while abstaining from actually carrying out the act in the flesh is evidence that one is not born again.   Sin begins in the heart long before it is carried out physically.  To desire sin in one's heart means one has already crossed the line into sin.

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There is some confusion here that might only be semantics:

 

When Shiloh says that conversion effects a total transformation of the heart, I doubt (correct me here Shiloh) he means that all Christians are now perfect.

 

Now, Shiloh, do you think that, whereas other vices or at least the temptation towards them (the "desire" or impulse to steal, lie, or lust (same sex here)) will abide post-conversion, yet same-sex attractions must be completely obliterated, and any residual attraction even if not acted upon and in fact shunned once felt, is a clear sign that conversion did not occur?  

 

Or do you merely mean the embrace of that lifestyle, the conviction that, this too is honored by God, must be abandoned?  A Christian can still "feel" same-sex attractions, but the sign of his conversion is his persistent effort to put them out of his mind.  If that is what you mean, then we need to define "homosexual" a little more closely.  A homosexual Christian would merely mean one who was not attracted to the opposite sex, but abstained from any form of sexual behavior with those of the same sex.

 

clb

I am saying that it is impossible for one to be a practicing homosexual and be a Christian.   It is not a sin to be tempted, even in the area of same-sex attraction.  The sin lies in entertaining the temptation.  I know of former homosexuals who still struggle with this temptation.  The key is that they struggle.  Were they not genuine Christians, they would seek to defend and justify same-sex attraction. They don't believe it is okay to feel the desire.  It is just a much a sin to entertain sin in one's heart, as it is to commit it in the flesh.

 

It is also a sin to accept homosexuality as normal and acceptable.  Those who defend homosexuality are committing sin, as they are defying the clear precepts laid down in Scripture that state that such a lifestyle is a sin. 

 

"Homosexual Christian" is an oxymmoron.  One cannot be saved and remain gay.  Entertaining and accepting the desires while abstaining from actually carrying out the act in the flesh is evidence that one is not born again.   Sin begins in the heart long before it is carried out physically.  To desire sin in one's heart means one has already crossed the line into sin.

 

Okay, well at least we can agree on something.

 

Still, you might want to clarify what you mean when you deny "homosexual Christian" as a possibility.  Some might think that you mean a person cannot have the attractions and still be a Christian--even if they condemn those attractions and constantly attempt to mortify them and the entire lifestyle of which they make part.  At least that is what I thought you meant here and a long while ago when this subject came up.

 

clb

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The Gospel is the same for all.

We are all sinners.

Christ paid for our sins on the cross.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

Are you implying that I am not saved? I believe in Christ, that is enough for me, or anyone to be saved.

Not really.   Salvation is not based on accepting a set of propositional truths from the Bible.   Salvation begins with understanding that you are a sinner in God's eyes.  It means accepting God's definition of sin.  Salvation means repenting and forsaking your sin and making Jesus both Lord and Savior.   As it stands, you appear to assent to believing in Jesus, as if that is all there is. 

 

Salvation affects a total change a transformation of the heart.  Without that transformation having taken place, you are still in your sins.  You may have religion, but you have not made a genuine decision to accept Jesus as Lord.

Well, I should have said earlier that I do know that I am a sinner. We all are sinners. But, by the grace of God we are saved, even when we do sin after attaining salvation.

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I believe that people can call themselves of Christ and be gay at the same time. Christ loved all.

But Jesus hates the sin of homosexuality.   You cannot be a practicing homosexual and an authentic follower of Jesus.  

 

 

No, that's true. Every gay Christian has to make a serious effort to abandon their homosexual activity, which I would imagine can be extremely difficult, but then again other people who are not homosexual have their own difficulties too.

Homosexuality is a psychological disorder caused by Satanic influences but Jesus can get rid of all that.

 

"Gay Christian" is a contradiction in terms.   There are NO practicing gays who are Christians, not a single one.  Anyone who practices that sin and claims to be a Christian is either lying or seriously deceived.

 

The Bible says that those who practice homosexuality will not inherit the KIngdom of God. (I Cor.6:9).   There may be practicing gays who are Christian "religionists," but there are no practicing gays who are also authentic followers of Jesus Christ.

 

Homosexuality is a spiritual stronghold that only Jesus can deliver from.  There is no personal behavioral reform a homosexual can engage in that will suffice.  

 

Precisely!  Just as how not a single practicing Christian would wear both polyester and cotton in a single wardrobe (Leviticus 19:19). This too is in fact a choice and can be overcome with the strength of Jesus! (Sorry, some days I get stuck on sarcasm mode and there is no turning back)

Edited by Johnoplata
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"God says that homosexuality is a sin and He says so in several places in the Bible.  So your question, "what if homosexuality is not a sin" is answered. It is a sin and there is no other way to look at it from the Bible.  Sin is not defined by its effect on society.  It is defined by what the Bible says it is."

 

Shiloh, I cannot help but question as a matter of my own faith whether the culture of the times had an effect on what sins were treated with severity and which were tolerated as relics of a long gone era. The bible does not rank sins (beyond the 7 deadly, i suppose) and we cannot pick and choose which rules we follow. That being said, I don't believe we can safely say that "Seafood eating Christians is a contradiction either". Yet that is mentioned in the very same paragraph as homosexuality and bestiality.  I personally can't reconcile choosing which of these sins I will hold against a fellow Christian.

Edited by Johnoplata
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7 pages and not locked. That's an achievement in itself lol. I always found it funny how when 2 men love each other it makes so many angry (as said in the thread you don't hate gay people but the rhetoric does incite many to hatred).

Funny how (this was brought up in previous threads) the churches are very vocal on this issue and silent on greed. Astonishing.

Unfortunately while I would defend your right to disagree with homosexuality the hate speech spewed by some can lead to the disgusting situations like you have in Uganda today.

Just something for thought. I am straight. Like totally. I fancy women. Gay men fancy men. Telling a gay man he is wrong would be like telling me I'm not allowed to fancy women. Eh right. Like that's going to happen. I have a few gay friends. One of them is in a long term relationship. He loves his partner. He's not perverted. He has suffered intolerable abuse from so called Christians but doesn't hate normal Christians who let him be. He's a bigger man than I am.

I just find it such a non issue. Black people are born black as homosexual people are born homosexual but it's ok to demonise one set of people but not the other . Funny.

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Spoken too soon ... closed for review.  

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