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JohnD

IMHO: A big part of understanding Hebrew Roots...

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...is to divorce ourselves from the traditions of men, personal prejudice, and arrogant pride... and realize the Bible (God's Word) from Genesis to Revelation is about God's HEBREW PLAN to save humanity (thems that believe). 

 

I understand that we cannot say "this is the way it is" so I qualify this thread as "IMHO" to offer it for the consideration of all. Only I insist no one take my word for it. Test all things by the scriptures. I also hope no one will simply dismiss this without digging into scripture to satisfy their beliefs based on... anything else but the scriptures.

 

Being a believer for over 47 years... it finally dawned on me that the truth (not because I believe it but because scripture proves it) / all truth has a very tough time down here on earth getting accepted. People by nature question everything, but unfortunately (apparently) most do not test everything by scripture but rather by how they feel, what they want, what others have said and  they bought into, etc.

 

I get that.

 

I am not here to convert those who want no part of this. To them I say, "lots of luck to you!" Please do not waste your time using non-scriptural arguments and allow those who want to at least consider these things to give it a chance or to find the scriptures that disprove this discussion (and it is a discussion not a teaching or a billboard for what JohnDB thinks is true). 

 

I am truly truly subject to biblical proof / disproof of all things (recognizing the scripture as the measuring rod for truth). And I have and will change my POV to the tune of biblical proof.

 

For example:

 

I once thought the patriarch Joseph was sold off by his brothers before his brother Benjamin was born and that he knew nothing of his full blood brother's existence until one of his half brothers spilled the beans in Pharaoh's court (before Joseph revealed himself to them). It seemed to follow scripture and made an interesting angle to tell the story from... but tracking his history down in scripture when the family camped near Shechem there was something that disproved the whole thing. I do not now recall what that was... LOL I am getting old and my supposition was proved false so it really does not matter now... LOL. So I defer to scripture and bow the knee to the living Word Jesus Christ.

 

IMHO: A big part of understanding Hebrew Roots... is the point I was driving at with the discussion topics of Jesus is still King of the Jews and the Jewishness of the faith and God's Hebrew never ended.

 

As a Trekker / Trekee / geek... I am reminded of Q's statement to Jean Luc in the last ST TNG episode... "the trial never ends..."

 

God's Hebrew Plan Never Ends...

 

Romans 11:16-26 (KJV)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

 

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Hi John!  I am new to the Worthy Forums and was reading through several threads when I came on this one.  I am curious what you consider  "Hebrew Roots" to be as part of the Gospel. I have read your posts a few times and am not grasping where you are coming from. Can you please clarify? Thanx!

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Hi john,

Spock thinking out loud-

It has recently occurred to me Jesus may never have intended to start a new religion-Christianity.

But I can't reconcile it all. I know God was angry at the Jewish leaders for their rejection of Christ, but does that mean this is why a new religion or two sprung up?

Let me get this straight:

1. God ordains Saturday as the day of rest

2. Constantine and ecumenical council change it to Sunday

3. When Jesus returns, it will go back to Saturday.

So why do most believers have it on Sunday?

Hmmmmm

Many questions, few answers for me.

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Hi john,

Spock thinking out loud-

It has recently occurred to me Jesus may never have intended to start a new religion-Christianity.

But I can't reconcile it all. I know God was angry at the Jewish leaders for their rejection of Christ, but does that mean this is why a new religion or two sprung up?

Let me get this straight:

1. God ordains Saturday as the day of rest

2. Constantine and ecumenical council change it to Sunday

3. When Jesus returns, it will go back to Saturday.

So why do most believers have it on Sunday?

Hmmmmm

Many questions, few answers for me.

 

God did ordain the 7th day as the day of rest. I say the 7th day because Saturday does not exactly coincide since biblical days start at sunset so the 7th day starts at sunset on Friday.

 

As far as Constantine and the first council of Nicea, Constantine wanted to separate from Judaism, so set things up so that belief in Jesus and the holy days did not coincide with the holy days of Judaism. This especially effected the timing of Passover vs. the timing of Easter. However, historically, believers in Jesus were already gathering on the 1st day, Sunday, so the day of gathering for Christians had not really changed. 

 

The Sabbath, as you said, according to the Mosaic law, is a day of rest. One mistake of many who support a Sabbath worship service, is that scripture never ever commanded a 7th day worship service, but did command a 7th day rest. Going back to the OT, the children of Israel were alloted land based on tribe. The Temple, the formal place for sacrifice and worship, was simply too far away for most of the people to travel for Sabbath worship services. Since the command was to rest, most would have stayed home.

 

The addition of synagogues with Rabbis is not in scripture, and happened during the Babylonian exhile. So, to here the scriptures being read, during Jesus time, people went to the synagogue. Jesus went to the synagogue, not because of any command, but to preach to the people. The disciples also went to synagogues, not because of any command but to share the gospel, and often, Christians would gather the day after the Sabbath, 'Sunday', to have a more private meeting, discussing more Christian topics.

 

Since services on the Sabbath, are not a command, there is no need to have services on the Sabbath. Judaism today, has worship/prayer services 7 days a week. In reality, most synagogues are open and having services more often then Christian churches. Since services are not and have never been tied to the Sabbath, and worship occured 7 days a week in the Temple, and 7 days a week in synagogues, to limit services to one or two days a week, is not biblical. But, having services on any day of the week is not against bible. In otherwords, having services on Sunday, Wednesday, or Thursday, does not violate any command but is fine.

 

The question then is not about services, which many including Constantine confused as having to do with the Sabbath. It is about a day of rest. No where in the NT are New Covenant believers commanded to rest on the Sabbath, or on any other day. New Covenant believers are told to rest in the Messiah. Those who received the Mosaic covenant are commanded to rest on the 7th day, but those who received the New Covenant are not commanded to rest an a specific day of the week. So, Jesus did intend to bring in a New Covenant, which is not the same as the Mosaic covenant. Given that the covenants are different, the practice, or obedience to the differing covenants is different. Had the nation/people of Israel accepted the New Covenant, Judaism would include Jesus, but since Israel as a nation, rejected Jesus, there are two differing religions.      

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Thanks Q,

I am reading and pondering your words.

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q or anyone else interested,

Okay, I've pondered a bit more what you wrote, and I get the impression you think the Ten Commandments are a Jewish thing, and not really a church thing.

Is this accurate? What, if any, significance are the Ten Commandments?

Secondly, do you think Jesus intended to start a new religion distinct from Judaism?

Lastly, Up until Constantine and the council of Nicaea, the "gentile believers" were basically a Jewish sect and did everything the Jewish believers did, including worship and day of rest on Saturday. (Acts 15 gave them some leeway on many matters though.) I seriously doubt this was changed before Constantine. How do you see how that 300 year period was played out? I believe Constantine and the church council changed things because of their anti-semitism.

And of course, the day of rest began way before Moses gave it. See Genesis 2:

2By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

It seems to me the 7th day has always and will always be the special day of God for mankind to rest, just as he did.

Yes or no?

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i say no......   not the way you are implying.

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i say no......   not the way you are implying.

I'm all ears. What does all that mean to you?

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i say no......   not the way you are implying.

I'm all ears. What does all that mean to you?

 

While the seventh day was/is/will be special to the Lord, the seventh day rest was given to the Nation of Israel.   It is not something we "do" today, it is a complete way of life......  every day 24/7.

 

Jesus admitted that he was working on the Sabbath.....   not only that but the Father had been working also.

 

Gods sabbath rest isn't setting around doing nothing one day a week, it is living a holy lifestyle....   it is accepting the "rest" he gives us through grace in salvation...

 

Unless you want to put us back under the law......    if you want to go back to the ten commandments as law, then you have to start killing people who do almost anything on Friday night to Saturday night...

 

Besides that, no one has changed the Sabbath.....   it's still Friday night to Saturday night...     we go to church on Sunday to worship and celebrate the risen Christ.    There is not any command to hold church services on the Sabbath that I have seen.

 

If it was still critical to not work at all on the Sabbath as was given to Israel, then why was Jesus working?

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My impression was that the rest in Christ was ceasing from our own works and relying on the completed work of Christ on the Cross. It is to stop stiving to be "good enough" or to please God, but to rest in that God is pleased with the work of Christ, which was bestowed on us, so He is already pleased with all who are in Him. Does that make sense? We now rest from our striving and walk in the Spirit. His burden is light. He has written the law on our hearts. The law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, so it is still necessary to bring others to Christ.

Willa

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