Butch5 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I mean I don't believe in the doctrine. It can't traced back to the apostles and the Scriptures refute it. The doctrine of original sin says that everyone is guilty because of Adam's sin. The Scriptures don't teach that. That teaching came from Augustine. But everyone is guilty of sin, and sin came into the world by Adam and Eve. We all fall short of the glory of God, and the cross is the path to forgiveness. The scriptures do teach this. That's why it's called the fall of man Butch. Yes, everyone is guilty of sin when they sin. An infant that is two days old has not sinned. Original sin says that this infant is guilty for the sin that Adam committed. The Scriptures teach that everyone is guilty for their own sins, not the sins of others. 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Eze 18:19-20 KJV) If Adam is the father of the human race then no one but Adam shall bear his sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saved34 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,185 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 667 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/28/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1971 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Sorry, Scripture doesn't teach that. I came from Augustine. These passages need to understood in the context in which they were written. One can claim a passage says many things if they remove it from teh context in which it was written. The Apostle Paul said he had a "sinful nature". He said absolutely no good dwelled in this nature. Explain. Rom 7:18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. He said "he" had. How do you equate that to every single human who ever lived? Well, God almighty seems to agree with him. Rom 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. Rom 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; Rom 3:11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. Rom 3:12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one How about Job then? Job 15:14 "What are mortals, that they could be pure, or those born of woman, that they could be righteous? Job 15:15 If God places no trust in his holy ones, if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes, Job 15:16 how much less mortals, who are vile and corrupt, who drink up evil like water! John? 1Jn 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we are to treat scripture the way you are attempting to treat it, how could we claim any of God's precious promises and truths. Paul said things like "I am Crucified with Christ. According to you because he said "I" that can't include all of us. How about "for me to Live is Christ, to die is gain"? Nope, can't claim that either because Paul said "Me". That is simply an unacceptable way to share in scripture and smacks of one trying to hold onto a denominational point in spite of evidence to the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bible_Gazer Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 450 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 152 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/05/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2014 Sorry, Scripture doesn't teach that. I came from Augustine. These passages need to understood in the context in which they were written. One can claim a passage says many things if they remove it from teh context in which it was written. The Apostle Paul said he had a "sinful nature". He said absolutely no good dwelled in this nature. Explain. Rom 7:18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. What version are you using ?But is does not say he was born with it.I think we create a sin nature, that I can agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saved34 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,185 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 667 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/28/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1971 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I mean I don't believe in the doctrine. It can't traced back to the apostles and the Scriptures refute it. The doctrine of original sin says that everyone is guilty because of Adam's sin. The Scriptures don't teach that. That teaching came from Augustine. But everyone is guilty of sin, and sin came into the world by Adam and Eve. We all fall short of the glory of God, and the cross is the path to forgiveness. The scriptures do teach this. That's why it's called the fall of man Butch. Yes, everyone is guilty of sin when they sin. An infant that is two days old has not sinned. Original sin says that this infant is guilty for the sin that Adam committed. The Scriptures teach that everyone is guilty for their own sins, not the sins of others. 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Eze 18:19-20 KJV) If Adam is the father of the human race then no one but Adam shall bear his sins. Not to cut in but, in Adam all die. In fact our Lord said unless you become BORN AGAIN you will not see the Kingdom of God. If the Apple tree is corrupt, the Apples will be too. It is a necessity to get out of Adam and into Christ. Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saved34 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,185 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 667 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/28/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1971 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Rom 7:18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. What version are you using ? But is does not say he was born with it. I think we create a sin nature, that I can agree with. That was from the NIV, but it is the same in all versions. "The flesh" is that old nature that sin springs from. We never created a sin nature. Sin was introduced to man by satan, and since then we have become worse and worse. Adam can only produce his kind. Only in Christ can the power of indwelling sin, or sin in the flesh be broken. Sin is so bad in man that the Law only incites it to do more evil. It's even called "sinful flesh" in scripture. The Body is not sinful, we know this because scripture calls it God's temple when one believes on Christ. "The flesh" is that nature of sin that we are born with. A natural inclination to rebel against God. Scripture says we were at one point, "By nature" the Children of wrath. The word for nature is Phusis. Meaning germination as in from a native disposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Sorry, Scripture doesn't teach that. I came from Augustine. These passages need to understood in the context in which they were written. One can claim a passage says many things if they remove it from teh context in which it was written. The Apostle Paul said he had a "sinful nature". He said absolutely no good dwelled in this nature. Explain. Rom 7:18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. He said "he" had. How do you equate that to every single human who ever lived? Well, God almighty seems to agree with him. Rom 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. Rom 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; Rom 3:11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. Rom 3:12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one How about Job then? Job 15:14 "What are mortals, that they could be pure, or those born of woman, that they could be righteous? Job 15:15 If God places no trust in his holy ones, if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes, Job 15:16 how much less mortals, who are vile and corrupt, who drink up evil like water! John? 1Jn 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we are to treat scripture the way you are attempting to treat it, how could we claim any of God's precious promises and truths. Paul said things like "I am Crucified with Christ. According to you because he said "I" that can't include all of us. How about "for me to Live is Christ, to die is gain"? Nope, can't claim that either because Paul said "Me". That is simply an unacceptable way to share in scripture and smacks of one trying to hold onto a denominational point in spite of evidence to the contrary. well, if we can put the accusations aside and discuss it that would be great. Let me ask you. If you said, I have a million dollars would it mean that all Christians had a million dollars or would it mean that all Christians could have Paul's million dollars? I suspect you'd say no. Just because Paul said nothing good dwells in him doesn't mean there is nothing good dwelling in anyone else. I asked you how you take his statement and apply it to every human who has lived, you didn't answer. If you can give a logical reason why Paul's statement should apply to every single person then you can make a case. But to just proof text a verse and say it applies to every person without providing any logical reason why it applies to every single person is just opinion. Again, you've just posted a few passages. Please show me how these passages apply to every person. David said 'I was formed in iniquity'. OK, first of all I believe that's hyperbole, but, if it isn't how exactly does one apply that to every person who has lived. Another thing to consider is that just because people are sinners does't mean they are guilty of Adam's sin. The Doctrine of Original Sin says that everyone is guilty of Adam's sin. If a man is a sinner because he sins that doesn't necessitate that he is guilty of Adam's sin. You posted several passages none of which even mention Adam's sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I mean I don't believe in the doctrine. It can't traced back to the apostles and the Scriptures refute it. The doctrine of original sin says that everyone is guilty because of Adam's sin. The Scriptures don't teach that. That teaching came from Augustine. But everyone is guilty of sin, and sin came into the world by Adam and Eve. We all fall short of the glory of God, and the cross is the path to forgiveness. The scriptures do teach this. That's why it's called the fall of man Butch. Yes, everyone is guilty of sin when they sin. An infant that is two days old has not sinned. Original sin says that this infant is guilty for the sin that Adam committed. The Scriptures teach that everyone is guilty for their own sins, not the sins of others. 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Eze 18:19-20 KJV) If Adam is the father of the human race then no one but Adam shall bear his sins. Not to cut in but, in Adam all die. In fact our Lord said unless you become BORN AGAIN you will not see the Kingdom of God. If the Apple tree is corrupt, the Apples will be too. It is a necessity to get out of Adam and into Christ. Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. That's true, but, that doesn't mean that the apples are guilty of the sin of the apple. If I commit a sin is my child guilty for that sin? The God said no through Ezekiel. I agree that if one is corrupt in nature then the offspring will be too. However, that doesn't mean that the offspring is guilty of the sin of the parent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bible_Gazer Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 450 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 152 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/05/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) Rom 7:18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. What version are you using ?But is does not say he was born with it.I think we create a sin nature, that I can agree with.That was from the NIV, but it is the same in all versions. "The flesh" is that old nature that sin springs from. We never created a sin nature. Sin was introduced to man by satan, and since then we have become worse and worse. Adam can only produce his kind. Only in Christ can the power of indwelling sin, or sin in the flesh be broken. Sin is so bad in man that the Law only incites it to do more evil. It's even called "sinful flesh" in scripture. The Body is not sinful, we know this because scripture calls it God's temple when one believes on Christ. "The flesh" is that nature of sin that we are born with. A natural inclination to rebel against God. Scripture says we were at one point, "By nature" the Children of wrath. The word for nature is Phusis. Meaning germination as in from a native disposition.So when Christ is introduced in two Christian couples they are now in Christ, will they produce a sinless nature baby ?Its says in 1Cor.7:14 that if one of the parents is saved the child is holy. Edited January 31, 2014 by Bible_Gazer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saved34 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,185 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 667 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/28/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1971 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Again, sorry Butch. That is simply a pointless way to argue from scripture. Scripture is God breathed and profitable for the man or woman of God to build us up. Paul was writing about more than himself. You can't handle scripture like that. I presented scripture and you just brush it off without any real rebuttal from scripture of your own. Your argument boils down to "well, you've shown it to me, but he was just speaking about himself." That is just unacceptable and will lead to nothing but pointless arguing and strife. 1Ti 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. 1Ti 1:16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saved34 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,185 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 667 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/28/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1971 Share Posted January 31, 2014 So when Christ is introduced in two Christian couples they are righteous, will they produce a sinless nature baby ?Its says in 1Cor.7:14 that if one of the parents is saved the child is holy. No, even we as Christians cannot say we are sinless in the sense of our actual day to day walk. 1Jn 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. The scripture you quoted is looking back to chapter 6, where Paul is dealing with sharing God's temple (our bodies) with a harlot or an unsaved person. In some cases believers or new converts found themselves in relations with unbelieving spouses now that they were converted. Not only did he say the child was Holy, but the unbelieving spouse was "sanctified" also. Not in a salvific sense, but in the sense that God honors that family because of the believing spouse. lol imagine us as believers producing a sinless nature baby. I think we would have to find a sinless believer first. (meaning in our actual walk, not our perfect standing in Christ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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