Original Sin

[Remnantrob]

Ok so the purpose for my question was basically to address the role of Jesus in our lives.  I believe that if the idea of original sin where you are born a sinner is true then Jesus was a sinner when he was born and we have no hope because he is our substitute.  If you are a sinner because of your choices then it makes sense the Jesus was God made flesh because he was tempted but didn't choose to sin.  One text that woke me up about the nature of sin was James 1:12-15 which says:

 

¹² Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

¹³ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

¹⁴ But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

¹⁵ Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

So I don't stop at the temptations in the wilderness or the temptation to use his divine power, but also the same inner temptations we face.  Christ never allowed lust to be conceived but he was tempted just like we are and knows what it is to desire to be angry at someone or find a girl pretty or any of the same things that we face but he endured and overcame it through the grace of his father. 

[other one]

Butch, no demon has ever confessed Jesus as THEIR very own saviour. They have acknowledged and know he is Messiah, but they have no vestment of him as their very own saviour. That is the difference. Notice DRS81 said "YOUR" personal saviour, not THE Saviour. 

 

I did have one tell me that  "He would be."  I can only assume he meant if it were possible.

 

You know that pondering on that kind of breaks your heart.....  deserve it or not, what must it be like to have no hope whatsoever..  it's very hard for me to wish that even on the devil.

[Thaddaeus]

Ok so the purpose for my question was basically to address the role of Jesus in our lives.  I believe that if the idea of original sin where you are born a sinner is true then Jesus was a sinner when he was born and we have no hope because he is our substitute.  If you are a sinner because of your choices then it makes sense the Jesus was God made flesh because he was tempted but didn't choose to sin.  One text that woke me up about the nature of sin was James 1:12-15 which says:

 

¹² Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

¹³ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

¹⁴ But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

¹⁵ Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

So I don't stop at the temptations in the wilderness or the temptation to use his divine power, but also the same inner temptations we face.  Christ never allowed lust to be conceived but he was tempted just like we are and knows what it is to desire to be angry at someone or find a girl pretty or any of the same things that we face but he endured and overcame it through the grace of his father. 

Remnantrob,

 

I just came back to this forum after a long absence, and began to read this thread.  I would like to make some comments regarding your question.

First, in following through, it seems Butch5 is the only one who is arguing against the theory known as "Original Sin".  I agree with him but I feel he did not go far enough in explaining why Original Sin is a false theory.  Unfortunately it is held by most if not all Protestants, and was accepted by the RCC at the Council of Trent right in the middle of the Reformation.  Probably to stem the tide of Protestantism where both Luther and Calvin, both Augustinians adopted his philosopy of Original Sin.

 

First, two tenents of the theory are that man shares in Adam's sin and guilt.

Secondly,  it is God that imputes sin to man.

 

The Church from the beginning and the Orthodox today still hold to the understanding of the fall as scripture actually teaches. The Church Fathers have explained it that Adam was take captive by Satan by being deceived and sinned.  That sin was condemned and it is the condemnation of Adam's sin that man has inherited. Satan was given authority over this world when he fell.  He ruled this world by the power of death Heb 2:14. When God told Adam that he would die, it was NOT the  relationship but life itself that would die. Adam became mortal. God did not create death. Death is the absence of life. God created life. He created man to live eternally, not to be dissolved by death back to dust from whence he came, Gen 3:19.

 

That death was real  is shown with the death of Cain.  Man would live a biological existence struggling all the while to survive,living in a world and body susceptable to decay and corruption.  It is this dead mortal body that cause us to sin so easily.  The passions of man are out of balance. Adam chose to make this world the object of his desires rather than the Creator. Rather than use it to God's glory as he was created to do, he chose to use it for his own ends.

 

That death is man's primary problem is confirmed by Paul in Rom 5:12. He states that it is death, the condemnation of Adam's sin that fell upon all men. Also I Cor 15:56 tells us point-blank that death, our mortality causes us to sin, "the sting of death is sin".  This would be impossible under the theory of Original Sin.  Also, we do not have sin nature, but a sinful nature. A huge difference in meaning.

 

I might also add that many Original Sin proponents use Ps 53:5 to show man is born with sin, but it states man is born IN sin. Another huge difference in meaning.

 

Paul then in Rom 5:18 tells us that Christ's death the free gift of life was given to all men. This is the free Gift of salvation given by God, through Christ's great mercy and love to mankind.  Christ overcame death, defeated Satan, so that God and man could resume an eternal relationship for which man was created. Without life, an eternal, physical existence there can be no eternal spiritual relationship betweeen God and man. Another support text is II Tim 1:10

 

Part of the problem most Protestants have is to get around the fact that if man has a sin nature, or is born with sin, then how can Christ be born a man in the Incarnation.  Man is NOT born a sinner, but mortal. We sin because we are dead, mortal beings. Christ was born with our human nature, in order that He was capable of death.  That is why Christ needed to be Incarnate. He assumed our mortal natures and give life to that nature by His resurrection.  I Cor 15:12-22 is the clearest explanation of Christ's work of saving man from death.  Notice all men will be given life.

 

The fact that the resurrection of man is tied to the resurrection of Christ is also supported by John 6:39, Rev 20:13, Acts 24:15 and others.

 

 

If man is going to be able to choose of his own free will, as did Adam as man was created, then all men need life in order that 'whosoever' beleives might have eternal life,(meaning life with Christ). as opposed to an eternal existence apart from Christ.  This is why all Christians have believed in the resurrection of the dead. Christ not only gave life to mankind, but to the world as well, which suffered the condemnation of death. (also note, that with the Original Sin theory, this would make no sense at all)  II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25, Rom 5:6-10, Col 1:20, shows that Christ was reconciling the world back to God. 

The purpose was to enable man to be reconciled to Christ by and through faith to begin or better stated, to renew (regenerate) the  lost relationship due to Adam.

 

I hope this might be of help to you, and others.