Guest Butero Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 We must try to live a life with out Sin this is the best thing for us, we are all working on this together and i think in these last days we will be able to reach a Sinless life lets just trust in Jesus Christ to bring us out of Sin. 1 John 2 King James Version (KJV) 2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 3 King James Version (KJV) 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1 John 4 King James Version (KJV) 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. 1 John 5 King James Version (KJV) 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. 18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. We should all strive to follow the teachings of the Bible as closely as we can. Whenever we are faced with a choice where one direction is to sin and one is to abstain from sin, we should always choose to resist the temptation. I hear people claim that nobody can say no to sin every time, but my question is, why? Life is about choices, day in and day out. We will never be so holy in our lifestyle we are capable of working our way to heaven without the blood of Jesus, but when we are faced with a decision to sin or not to sin, and we know what we are doing, what is making us sin? Is the devil making a person steal, commit adultery, bear false witness, commit murder, or anything else? Of course not. We are making the decisions. The Bible says that if we resist the devil, he will flee from us. If we do sin in spite of that, the remedy is confession and repentance. What is funny to me is how many in the church world will attack anyone for even suggesting that we have any standards or that God even expects us to try to live right. Just attempting to live under standards set in the Bible is attacked as legalism. Good observations on your part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Beware Much of this is Mormon Doctrine. When one sins the Holy Spirit leaves that person. Look at the OP. If one obeys the commandments, he does not sin. This is out of Mormon doctrine. Driven also states he will post another thread that reveals once Saul was converted to Paul, that Paul sinned no more. Watch out what you are supporting. In Christ Montana Marv We will never be able to be good enough to be saved without the blood of Jesus, because even an evil thought will defile us. At the same time, it is possible to live our life without making choices to sin. I guess it depends on how far someone is taking this. If they are saying they can work their way to heaven and are so good, they don't need the blood of Jesus to wash them clean, and if they are saying they are so good they don't need a certain amount of grace to make it into heaven, they are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnochBethany Posted February 22, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) "9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." The interpretation of this verse which makes the best sense to me is that it speaks of the new nature which we receive in our new birth. Alongside that New Man there remains the Old Nature (Old Man, flesh) ready to spring into action at any time. I take it that the new nature cannot sin, consistent with the argument of this verse,. "He cannot sin because he is born of God." This verse cannot mean that the Christian cannot habitually sin. All Christians habitually sin (as James says, in many ways we all stumble). It is to be observed, however, that it is possible to walk in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless; for Zacharias and Elisabeth (John the Baptist's parents did that; see Luke 1:6. "Zacharias, of the course of Abijah: and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." I take the word "blameless" to mean that outward observers could find nothing in the commandments or ordinances to blame them for, not that they were sinlessly perfect. Edited February 22, 2014 by EnochBethany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 This verse cannot mean that the Christian cannot habitually sin. All Christians habitually sin (as James says, in many ways we all stumble). That is preciesly what it means. In the Greek, the phrase refers to habitual sinning. John's point is that authentic followers of Jesus do not live habitually in sin. There is a difference in stumbling in a sincere attempt to serve God and living a continuous lifestyle of sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnochBethany Posted February 23, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2014 This verse cannot mean that the Christian cannot habitually sin. All Christians habitually sin (as James says, in many ways we all stumble). That is preciesly what it means. In the Greek, the phrase refers to habitual sinning. John's point is that authentic followers of Jesus do not live habitually in sin. There is a difference in stumbling in a sincere attempt to serve God and living a continuous lifestyle of sin. Well, Shiloh, I have a master's degree in Greek, & I assure you that much of what has passed as expert interpretation (by people who don't know Greek) is wrong. So IMHO: The Greek present tense does not mean "habitually sin." Now the present tense in both Greek and English can be used where it is habitual, but that doesn't mean that it always means habitual or that by itself it asserts "habitual." In English, if you say in the so-called present tense, "I chew gum," that denotes your habitual or general action (it really does not mean that you are presently chewing gum). To express a true present in English, you would say, "I am chewing gum." I say this to illustrate how the idea that Greek has some magic denotation of habitual action in its present tense which English lacks, is a falsehood. Now the fact is that the Bible teaches that fact Christians do sin in many ways. And it is a fact of experience for all honest Christians that they indeed can sin habitually. Do you deny that you habitually sin? Christians indeed have besetting sins. Thus, such an interpretation of 1 John is impossible. Neither do I believe that you can prove that because the present tense is used here, the meaning has to be habitual. What do you think of the Church of Ephesus? It left its first love. Was that a sin? Was it just on rare occasions that it was deficient in love? Do you suppose that a state of carnality cannot be long term? "Are you not carnal?" In the state of carnality, which Christians definitely can have, do you suppose they don't sin habitually? Are there not those who sin so habitually that they sin a sin to death? Was there not long term unrepentant sin at Corinth? Are there no brothers who sin 7 X 70 times vs the same person? Can you not admit that the idea that Christians do not sin habitually is really preposterous? Consider the reasoning in the text itself. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is begotten of God does no sin, because his seed abides in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God. "because his seed abides in him" "because he is begotten of God." It makes sense that the one who is recreated by God gets along with his re-creation a disability, namely the disability to sin. What percent of the time is he disabled to sin? If the begotten status & the seed abiding does not come & go, how does the disability to sin come & go? To me this only makes sense as referring to the new man, new nature the Christian gets (while his flesh, Old Man remains also). We know that whosoever is begotten of God sins not; but he that was begotten of God keeps himself, and the evil one touches him not. A negation is put to the sin process based on being begotten of God. The begetting does not come & go. The only reasonable explanation I know of this passage is that it refers to the New Nature, which is the nature begotten by God. The "Christians cannot habitually sin" interpretation seems impossible to me. Best wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saved34 Posted February 26, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,185 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 667 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/28/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1971 Share Posted February 26, 2014 This verse cannot mean that the Christian cannot habitually sin. All Christians habitually sin (as James says, in many ways we all stumble). That is preciesly what it means. In the Greek, the phrase refers to habitual sinning. John's point is that authentic followers of Jesus do not live habitually in sin. There is a difference in stumbling in a sincere attempt to serve God and living a continuous lifestyle of sin. To tag along on this line of thinking, the habitual sinner is one who's lifestyle is that of sin. It's normal for him or her to live contrary to scripture. Those scriptures in no way describe a dear one of God who may not have come to the understanding that the Holy Spirit is with in him or her to give victory over the flesh. A believer can most definitely be caught in the war between his old nature and his new nature from God.(which could lead him or her to sin habitually for a season) All the while sad and weeping over his or her sins. It's only until the believer comes to the full knowledge that he or she is completely free from condemnation, that Christ has paid the price in full for him or her and that they have peace with God, not through their human effort, but through the precious blood of our Lord. Then and only then can the believer really live for God and bring forth fruit. I believe the verses in 1John are referring to those who would deliberately live a foul. No real conscious of offending God even though many of them may claim to know him. This individual has never experienced the real saving Grace of God. Tit 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. Tit 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good. Jud 1:4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 This verse cannot mean that the Christian cannot habitually sin. All Christians habitually sin (as James says, in many ways we all stumble). That is preciesly what it means. In the Greek, the phrase refers to habitual sinning. John's point is that authentic followers of Jesus do not live habitually in sin. There is a difference in stumbling in a sincere attempt to serve God and living a continuous lifestyle of sin. I completely agree with you Shiloh357. A true Christian cannot continue in a lifestyle of habitual sin. A person can believe they are saved and live in habitual sin, but they are only fooling themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnochBethany Posted February 26, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) This verse cannot mean that the Christian cannot habitually sin. All Christians habitually sin (as James says, in many ways we all stumble). That is preciesly what it means. In the Greek, the phrase refers to habitual sinning. John's point is that authentic followers of Jesus do not live habitually in sin. There is a difference in stumbling in a sincere attempt to serve God and living a continuous lifestyle of sin. I completely agree with you Shiloh357. A true Christian cannot continue in a lifestyle of habitual sin. A person can believe they are saved and live in habitual sin, but they are only fooling themselves. 1)"If we confess [present tense] our sins, He is faithful & just to forgive us our sins." If one supposes that the present tense means continual or habitual action, then there would be continual and habitual action in "confess." Now if a man is habitually confessing sin, would that not imply that he habitually sinned? Surely the need to confess sin is more frequent than daily in the life of a Christian. Men who have wives might ask their wives, if those men have any bad or sinful habits. 2) "For in many things we all stumble." - James 3:2 Do not we Christians habitually stumble? And is not stumbling a figure of speech here for sinning? Do we really believe that we only goof up on rare occasions? Do we have no need to cry out "God be merciful to me a sinner?" 3) < 1 Cor 3: 3:1 "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not with meat; for ye were not yet able to bear it: nay, not even now are ye able; 3 for ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are ye not carnal, and do ye not walk after the manner of men?" Were not these carnal Christians habitual sinners? Is it not possible and all too frequent for Christians to walk after the flesh? "do . . . walk after the manner of men" (present tense on walk. If the present tense is used for habitual action here, how could these Christians not be habitually sinning? περιπατεῖτε = present tense.) And the Word calls them "brethren." 4) < 1 Cor 4-5: " I write not these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. . . . 5:1 "It is actually reported [present tense] that there is [present tense] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even among the Gentiles, that one of you has [present tense] his father’s wife. 2 And ye are [present tense] puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he that had done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing, 4 in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved" That passage says in present tense "is reported, and is [present tense], has, and "are puffed up" [present tense]. Do you not see a habit here? So my brethren, it seems clear both from scripture & from our honest experience that we Christians do sin habitually & are quite capable of having besetting sins. And that is why I cannot buy the "habitual sin theory" of 1 John. It is a theory, because the word "habitual" does not appear in the text. I think the habitual interp arose from 1) a desire to avoid a sinless perfection interp and to harmonize the text with other scripture that indicates that Chrs do sin. and 2) a superficial understanding of Greek. Edited February 26, 2014 by EnochBethany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Contrary to my fictitious disbeliever above, it is clear both from scripture & from our honest experience that we Christians do sin habitually & are quite capable of having besetting sins. And that is why I cannot buy the "habitual sin theory" of 1 John. It's not a theory. It's biblical fact. I may commit a sin every day, but that is not "habitual" sin. Habitual sin refers to a lifestyle. None of us go a day without sinning; we all mess up from time to time. We all do lose the battle with our flesh at times. We would be liars if we said otherwise. But habitual, continuous practice of sin carries with the strong connotation of someone who is unrepentant about how they are living. If I can make a habit of daily viewing porn, and feel no conviction about it, no remorse? If can live that way and enjoy it, I am not born of God, according to I John 3:9. Same goes for any other kind of sexual immorality, drunkness, lying, stealing/cheating... If I can live in sin and enjoy it, I am not a believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnochBethany Posted February 26, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2014 "It's not a theory. It's biblical fact." Since the word "habitual" does not occur in the text, how can you escape calling it a theory? The text says, "sinneth not," "does not sin" It does not say, "does not sin habitually." "I may commit a sin every day, but that is not "habitual" sin. " Well, IMHO, if you sin every day, you have a sin habit. And in fact your Old Man flesh does have a sin habit. It lusts vs the Spirit. And IMHO, Christians in general have a habit of letting the flesh take over, like every day. They are like Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde. Do you suppose that a Christian somewhere could not get hurt feelings & hold a grudge for a long time, then stop going to church because of hurt feelings, stop going for over a year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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