The rapture theory: True or false?

[ENOCH2010]

Big problem with the pre-trib doctrine   No resurrection of the saints prior to the second coming of Christ, ( per Rev. :20) 

 

 

Above courtesy of the Holy Bible

[OneLight]

Hi guys, what I read in the link am about to show you will shock you concerning the author's view of the rapture. http://www.end-times-prophecy.org/rapture-theory-false.html.

Pls check the link and let me know what you all think.

I an left wondering what your thoughts are on this? You never indicated what they are.

[rebbell]

You can do nothing against the truth; but for the truth.

It is so important to have a close personal relationship with God. He will guide us in all Truth. Even if someone is speaking a lie, you know it is a lie because the Holy Spirit is speaking scripture of Truth to our hearts the entire time they are lying. But, now what do you do about it? Go away kicking rocks and allowing those who are lost to consume the lie? or do you trust in God and speak the Word of Truth the Holy Spirit has spoken to you. Do you fear what man may do or say, if you speak up? We will be held accountable for what we know.

Through a lie, the Truth will always show up.

You can do nothing against the Truth; but for the Truth.

God Bless you

[Enoch2021]

Big problem with the pre-trib doctrine   No resurrection of the saints prior to the second coming of Christ, ( per Rev. :20) 

 

 

Above courtesy of the Holy Bible

 

 

Love the Screen Name

 

Which Saints ?

[kingdomwitness]

But the bible which is the word of God says that Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Son of Man will be revealed in the clouds with a great trumpet sound and the gathering of the elect from the four winds of heaven. Also, the harvest of Revelation 14 might take place after the advent of the Antichrist in which he succeeds in bringing peace to the Middle East or Israel.

[Enoch2021]

But the bible which is the word of God says that Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Son of Man will be revealed in the clouds with a great trumpet sound and the gathering of the elect from the four winds of heaven. Also, the harvest of Revelation 14 might take place after the advent of the Antichrist in which he succeeds in bringing peace to the Middle East or Israel.

 

 

Well you have to understand the Purpose of Tribulation and that Tribulation is in 2 Parts of 3 1/2 years each.  The last 3 1/2 years, beginning with the Abomination of Desolation, was referred to by Jesus as THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

 

The Purpose is to Drive Israel to the Wall and bring about Hosea 5:

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

I believe the "After" part is for the Jewish Remnant.

 

Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter?

[EnochBethany]

The Rapture is no theory; it is a Bible fact.  < 1 Thes 4:

 

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;  17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be raptured in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  18 Wherefore  comfort one another with these words.

 

ἁρπαγησόμεθα, harpagēsometha = we shall be raptured (caught up).  Humorously, "we shall be harpooned."

The little "c" on the top of α is a Greek h, called a rough breathing mark.

 

ἁρπαγησόμεθα = rapiemur (Latin) = we shall be raptured (caught up).

 

The Rapture is simply the catching up of 1 Thes 4:17.

 

Now to be sure Christians do not agree on

1) the timing of this event (which has nothing to do with date-setting);

2) the relation to Daniel's 70th week (popularly called "the Tribulation"),

3) the nature of the Tribulation (past, figurative, future, literal?)

4) whether or not the Rapture coincides with the Second Coming of Christ to sort out the earth

 

Do not confuse the Rapture fact with the debate on whether or not it is pre-tribulational.  It does not bother me at all that Chrs disagree on those 4 points, but what does bother me is when some professed Chr gets on his high-horse, acts superior, or claims the pre-tribber is a heretic or a coward for not wanting to go thru the Trib.

 

The really important thing to believe in this context is that Christ could come at any time.  The Judge is at the doors as James 5 says.  This is called the imminence of the Rapture; Christ could come right now or at any time, but the time is unknown -- it could be centuries off.  However else you figure out the details, expect Him to come at any time.

 

Perhaps it will help you to figure out things if you note that at the end of 1 Thes 4 comes the Rapture, & at the start of 1 Thes 5 comes the Day of the Lord, the Tribulation.  And it will help if you check all the Bible refs to Day of the Lord to realize that "Day of the Lord" does not refer to the Rapture, nor to the Second Coming of Christ; rather judgment & destruction at the hands of the Lord.

 

BTW I find 9 Raptures in the Bible:

Enoch, Elijah, Christ, Paul, Philip, John, the Church, the two witnesses of Rev 11, some in vision.

 

Now if you figure it out different from me, that won't stop me from loving you nor considering you a brother.  We'll understand these things better bye & bye.

 

 

 

 

[EnochBethany]

 

 

I don't know if this will help you, but I do not believe these verses refer to one particular day. "Last day"may be referring to a time period-like toward the end of an age or period or dispensation. Or it could be talking about a specific people group, like the Jews. I believe the OT saints will be resurrected at the end of the tribulation (Daniel 12:1-2). Maybe.....maybe not.

I don't know if this will help you either, brother, but the phrase being "raised up on the last day" is another way of saying one will be resurrected and reign with the Lord in the millennium. The last day will endure for a literal 1000 years (Psalm 90:4, 2 Pet. 3:8). Man will be ruled by the prince of darkness for 6000 years or six days, and then by Christ for 1000 years or the last day. We have been living in the last days (plural) for almost 2000 years (Heb. 1:1). Then to put the icing on the cake check out (Hosea 6:2).

But now, I see that our last discussion about Daniel 12:1-2 did not help much. I realize that pre-tribbers hope to escape long before the need arises, but now you say that you believe the old Testament saints will be resurrected after the tribulation? Hmmmm? What makes you so sure living pre-tribbers will move to the head of the line in the first resurrection? Do you realize the dead in Christ will rise first? Or is it that you believe the OT saints are not in Christ at all? I'm just curious, what were the gentile believers grafted into?

Revelation 11:18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

I don't see any discriminating between the old and new Testament saints here anywhere, do you?

Or maybe I'm just missing something here?

You answered your question. Right now, I do believe OT believers are not the same as those in Christ. Does this make me a dispensationalist? I guess it might.

I have no problem seeing the church as being distinct, after all, it was a MYSTERY.

Don't get frustrated at me RT, I'm just not convinced yet, but always open. Keep them coming my brother.

 

1) I don't know of any proof for the septa-millennial theory.

2) There is good discussion of the pre-trib theory at BibleAndTheology.

3) dispensationalist?

 

The Dispensational Principle of Interp is necessary for all Christians.  That principle means that we observe to whom & in what time period a command of the Lord may be.  While there are universal commandments (like Love neighbor as self), there are also dispensational commands, commands only to a restricted group of people, and/or for a limited time period.  If you don't feel obligated to be a gardener (tho that was a job given to Adam, you do dispensational interp.  If you are not under the Law of Moses, you eat shell fish, you have not urge to do animal sacrifices, you never dream of taking off for the 7th year sabbath, you do disp interp.  If you don't go & fish for a fish that has a coin in its mouth when it is time to pay tax (& you are broke) & feel it is OK to own 2 coats, you do disp interp.  If you are sure you don't have to obey the missionary rules of Mat 10, you do disp interp.

[EnochBethany]

 

Big problem with the pre-trib doctrine   No resurrection of the saints prior to the second coming of Christ, ( per Rev. :20) 

 

 

Above courtesy of the Holy Bible

 

 

Love the Screen Name

 

Which Saints ?

Was Christ raised before the first res of Rev 20?  Why would "first resurrection" have to all happen at one point in time?  If the resurrection and Christ's coming for the Church had to wait for Rev 20, how could the judge be at the doors now (& and has been since 1st century)?

[EnochBethany]

 

But the bible which is the word of God says that Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Son of Man will be revealed in the clouds with a great trumpet sound and the gathering of the elect from the four winds of heaven. Also, the harvest of Revelation 14 might take place after the advent of the Antichrist in which he succeeds in bringing peace to the Middle East or Israel.

 

 

Well you have to understand the Purpose of Tribulation and that Tribulation is in 2 Parts of 3 1/2 years each.  The last 3 1/2 years, beginning with the Abomination of Desolation, was referred to by Jesus as THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

 

The Purpose is to Drive Israel to the Wall and bring about Hosea 5:

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

I believe the "After" part is for the Jewish Remnant.

 

Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter?

 

1) "But the bible which is the word of God says that Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Son of Man will be revealed in the clouds with a great trumpet sound and the gathering of the elect from the four winds of heaven."

 

You refer to the Olivet Discourse (Mat 24 & parallels).  In Mat 24 there is no Church & no Rapture.  There is no gathering of the elect to a meeting in the air to take them to Heaven (see 1 Thes 4 & John 14).  If the 2nd coming of Mat 24 were the Rapture, the Rapture would have to be after the Tribulation, for the 2nd coming there is after the trib.  But Mat 24 is about Israel & the Nations, not the Church.

 

2) The Purpose of the Tribulation.  Actually the Tribulation in the Bible is the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years; however, in popular Chr speech, "trib" means Daniel's 70th week of Dan 9.  I believe the Gt Trib is also the Time of Jacob's Trouble; so it has a special relation to Israel.  But also, it appears to me that the trib is the time of greatest salvation since earth was created.  A huge multitude of persons, even Gentiles, are saved in that time period, & at the end comes Israel's national salvation.  So I conclude that the Lord graciously puts the screws on mankind in hopes that they will repent & be saved.