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Blessings of Abraham a transferrable promise?


Remnantrob

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Hey guys,

 

I also forgot to bring out what I read in Hebrews 11:8-10 which says:

 

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

 

Reading this I see that Abraham wasn't so concern about the promise of earthly inheritance so much as he was looking for the heavenly Caanan. 

 

Later on in the same chapter in verses 12 and 13 it says:

 

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

I interpret this to mean that Abraham and his children were taught the gospel and to look forward to this promise and many of them as the stars of the sky and sand of the seas died not receiving those promises.  They knew they were strangers on this earth.

 

Lastly I love verses 39 and 40 which says:

 

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

 

I believe it was always God's plan for us to be one people...the human race and Thankfully there was one person worthy to help bring God's message to a sinful dying world and that was Abraham and his decendants.  I think they fulfilled their purpose and because of that their still a blessed people but Christ was always the promise the world was waiting for. 

Hi Rob,

 

The Hebrew word that is translated earth also means land.

 

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. (Gen 1:9-10 KJV)

 

I think if you read it as land it makes more sense. For instance the passage you quoted from Hebrews

 

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (Heb 11:12-13 KJV)

 

Some people read this passage and claim that Abraham was expecting to go to Heaven because it says they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. However, if you read that as land it makes perfect sense with what God promised Abraham. God told him to go to the land that He would later give him as an inheritance. Abraham, lived in that land but never received any of it. He was a pilgrim on it along with Isaac and Jacob.

 

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: (Heb 11:8-9 KJV)

 

Stephen said that Abraham never received any of the land.

 

2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,

3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.

4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.

5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child. (Act 7:2-5 KJV)

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Hi Neb,

 

The only thing I wanted to address was this statement that you made:

 

The Holy Spirit was not included in Abraham's covenant.

 

Was the Holy spirit not available to those who were a part of this covenant of Abraham.  His Job hasn't changed as far as i know and because he is God I think he existed just as much for God's people then as he does now.  Could you clarify this statement for me?  Thanks.

 

Sure.

 

As we read the Old Testament, we can see evidence of the Holy Spirit falling on people and working through them, but what we see is that this was not a regular occurance.

 

If you read through the terms of the Covenant given to Abraham, there is no mention of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The only mention of this promise is in the prophecies about the covenant to come.

 

Jer. 32

 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

 

Joel2

28 "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind ; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. 29 "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

 

 

So we see here that pouring of the Spirit on all was not available until this new covenant was given.

 

But the Scripture does clearly state in the OT that the Spirit did fall on some (Sampson, Samuel, David, the prophets, etc.)

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Hey Shiloh,

 

I think church and congregation basically have the same meaning so I don't see a problem with that translation.  I'm curious if you could go further in your response that in Romans 9 Paul was speaking about Israel but was Pauls job to preach to the Gentiles?  Thank you.

 

Hi Rob, I knwo this was addressed to Shiloh, and he is perfectly capable of answering, but I would like to chime in on this as well.

 

If you look up the meanings of the words, "church" and "congregation" do not have the same meaning by any stretch of the imagination.

 

 

While Paul was indeed sent to the Gentiles, you will notice that in every city he visited, he always or almost always went to the Jewish synogogue first to preach the Gospel. So we see here that he also preached to Jews.

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Heard a sermon about this topic and was wondering what you guys thought.  Abraham was given blessing that he tried to give to Ishmael by his own work and God said no, it was going to Isaac even though he was the second born.  I've heard in that culture in those days that the first born was always entitled to the inheritances of the father.  We go down the lineage a little and see that the blessing was supposed to go to Esau goes to the second born Jacob.  Adam is the first man and Jesus is the second man and he gets the blessing(or is the blessing).  Could it be possible that the blessings/promises of Israel could be transferrable to the church? 

 

 

*** Removed link to SDA teaching ***

Hi Rob,

 

Actually, the promises to Abraham are given to the Gentiles through Christ. Many Christians don't understand this because they have been tught the "Heavenly Destiny" doctrine. The believers "hope" is not to go live in Heaven, it is to spend eternity in the restored land. God promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the land as an everlasting possession.

 

14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. (Gen 13:14-15 KJV)

 

Then it was given to Isaac,

 

KJV  Genesis 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.

2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. (Gen 26:1-5 KJV)

 

It was also given to Jacob

 

KJV  Genesis 28:1 And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.

2 Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother.

3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;

4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. (Gen 28:1-4 KJV)

 

This phrase the "blessing of Abraham" is tied directly to the inheritance of the Land. The phrase is used only twice in the Bible here in Genesis and Paul uses it to apply the "Blessing of Abraham" to the Gentiles.

 

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal 3:13-14 KJV)

 

The Gentiles receive the "blessing of Abraham" (the land) through faith in Christ. God promised the land to Abraham and his Seed. The Jews understood this to mean that they as the seed of Abraham would inherit the promises. The Jews understood Seed as a collective group, themselves, however, Paul says that the Jews misunderstood. He argues that when God said the promises were to Abraham and his Seed, He meant it singularly and not in the plural and that that Seed is Christ.

 

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3:16 KJV)

 

The land was promised to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Christ. It is through faith in Christ that the Gentiles receive the inheritance which is the land promised to Abraham.

 

I've written a paper on this subject if you'd like to read more. I go into much greater detail and use a lot Scripture to show that this is indeed what the Bible teaches. The Paper is "The Kingdom of God (A Biblical perspective)"

 

I hope this helps and let me know if I can answer any questions you have.

 

In Gal 3:13-" Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law" what exactly is the curse of the Law since Christ had to redeem us from it? I understand it to be death, the same death from the wages of sin which would be the breaking of the law.

 

Hi Fruitful,

 

In context, I believe the "us" is the Jews, it was they who were under the Law not the Gentiles

 

 

Why are the Gentiles not under the law?

 

Hi Rob,

 

The Law is the Law of Moses, it was only given to the Jews.

 

 

 

Hi Butch,

 

Thanks for the response.  How do you know that the curse of the law is the Law of Moses?  I understand it the same way as fruitful.  The curse was that the wages of sin was death.  The first time I see a curse given was back in Genesis before Jew or Gentile existed.  It's what i understand this whole idea of God becoming man came from.   Are there any texts that you can provide to make Galatians 3:13 clearer as in describing the curse as the law of Moses?  Thanks.

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Heard a sermon about this topic and was wondering what you guys thought.  Abraham was given blessing that he tried to give to Ishmael by his own work and God said no, it was going to Isaac even though he was the second born.  I've heard in that culture in those days that the first born was always entitled to the inheritances of the father.  We go down the lineage a little and see that the blessing was supposed to go to Esau goes to the second born Jacob.  Adam is the first man and Jesus is the second man and he gets the blessing(or is the blessing).  Could it be possible that the blessings/promises of Israel could be transferrable to the church? 

 

 

*** Removed link to SDA teaching ***

Hi Rob,

 

Actually, the promises to Abraham are given to the Gentiles through Christ. Many Christians don't understand this because they have been tught the "Heavenly Destiny" doctrine. The believers "hope" is not to go live in Heaven, it is to spend eternity in the restored land. God promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the land as an everlasting possession.

 

14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. (Gen 13:14-15 KJV)

 

Then it was given to Isaac,

 

KJV  Genesis 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.

2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. (Gen 26:1-5 KJV)

 

It was also given to Jacob

 

KJV  Genesis 28:1 And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.

2 Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother.

3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;

4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. (Gen 28:1-4 KJV)

 

This phrase the "blessing of Abraham" is tied directly to the inheritance of the Land. The phrase is used only twice in the Bible here in Genesis and Paul uses it to apply the "Blessing of Abraham" to the Gentiles.

 

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal 3:13-14 KJV)

 

The Gentiles receive the "blessing of Abraham" (the land) through faith in Christ. God promised the land to Abraham and his Seed. The Jews understood this to mean that they as the seed of Abraham would inherit the promises. The Jews understood Seed as a collective group, themselves, however, Paul says that the Jews misunderstood. He argues that when God said the promises were to Abraham and his Seed, He meant it singularly and not in the plural and that that Seed is Christ.

 

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3:16 KJV)

 

The land was promised to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Christ. It is through faith in Christ that the Gentiles receive the inheritance which is the land promised to Abraham.

 

I've written a paper on this subject if you'd like to read more. I go into much greater detail and use a lot Scripture to show that this is indeed what the Bible teaches. The Paper is "The Kingdom of God (A Biblical perspective)"

 

I hope this helps and let me know if I can answer any questions you have.

 

In Gal 3:13-" Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law" what exactly is the curse of the Law since Christ had to redeem us from it? I understand it to be death, the same death from the wages of sin which would be the breaking of the law.

 

Hi Fruitful,

 

In context, I believe the "us" is the Jews, it was they who were under the Law not the Gentiles

 

 

Why are the Gentiles not under the law?

 

Hi Rob,

 

The Law is the Law of Moses, it was only given to the Jews.

 

 

 

Hi Butch,

 

Thanks for the response.  How do you know that the curse of the law is the Law of Moses?  I understand it the same way as fruitful.  The curse was that the wages of sin was death.  The first time I see a curse given was back in Genesis before Jew or Gentile existed.  It's what i understand this whole idea of God becoming man came from.   Are there any texts that you can provide to make Galatians 3:13 clearer as in describing the curse as the law of Moses?  Thanks.

 

Hi Rob,

 

One of the major problems that Paul had to deal with in his ministry was a issue with the Judaizers. These were Jew who believed but insisted that Paul's Gentile believer must also follow the Mosaic Law. He deals with this issue in Galatians, Ephesians and Romans. Notice Paul's comparison here.

 

who raised him from the dead;)

2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. (Gal 1:1-17 KJV)

 

He talks about them being mislead  and contrasts the Gospel with Judaism and how he was transformed from Judaism to Christianity. The in verse 3 he speaks of them trying to be perfected by the works of the Law. The Law in Judaism is the Mosaic Law.We can these Judaizers in Acts 15. In Galatians 2 Paul writes of going up to Jerusalem but revelation.

 

KJV  Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.

2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. (Gal 2:1-2 KJV)

 

He went to address this issue of the Judaizers.

 

KJV  Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: (Act 15:1-30 KJV)

 

We can see from this that there had even been those in the Jerusalem church that argued that the Gentiles must be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. They finally decided that the Gentles didn't have to keep the Law. This is the background for Galatians and why Paul is writing about the Law.

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Hey Shiloh,

 

I think church and congregation basically have the same meaning so I don't see a problem with that translation.  I'm curious if you could go further in your response that in Romans 9 Paul was speaking about Israel but was Pauls job to preach to the Gentiles?  Thank you.

 

Hi Rob, I knwo this was addressed to Shiloh, and he is perfectly capable of answering, but I would like to chime in on this as well.

 

If you look up the meanings of the words, "church" and "congregation" do not have the same meaning by any stretch of the imagination.

 

 

While Paul was indeed sent to the Gentiles, you will notice that in every city he visited, he always or almost always went to the Jewish synogogue first to preach the Gospel. So we see here that he also preached to Jews.

 

Hi Neb,

 

I just realized that you have over 50K post...you must really love worthyboards...lol  Thank you for your response. My question now is where else would he have met with Gentiles if not in the Synogogues? 

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Gal 3:29 - " And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs to the promise."

 

Through Christ all nations are to be blessed.

 

The promises to Abraham are dual, both physical (the descendants of Abraham) and spiritual (the followers of Christ)

 

Spiritual Israel of God is the church.

No, the Church is not a spiritual Israel.   The NT never spiritualizes israel to refer to the Church.  The Church is NEVER called Israel.   Israel is Israel.  the Church is the Church.  They are radically separate in the NT.

 

 

In Gal 6: 15-16 - we see the church being referred to as the Israel of God.

 

 

No, we don't.   Paul is not referring to the church but to the remnant of believing Jews who are the true Israel, according to Paul in Romans 9.   Israel is NEVER spriitualized to refer to the church.  The Church is the Church  and Israel is Israel.  That is the ONLY correct and biblical way to look at it.

We know an assembly, a body of people, a congregation, is called a church.

 

In Acts 7:38 we see the people of Israel under Moses being referred to the " church in the wilderness"

 

No, we don't.  The original Greek word is "ekklesia" and refers to God's called out people.  The word "church" is not a translation of ekklesia and has no connection to that Greek word.  The word, "church" is a Germanic/teutonic word that means "circle" and originally referred to a group of sun worshippers in pre-Christian Europe.

 

Acts 7:38 is better rendered "the congregation" in the wilderness. 

 

 

Just as Israel was called out of Egypt, we in today's world have been called out of the sinning ways of the world by following Christ through the church He created on Pentecost.

 

Yes, but is nothing more than theological foreshadowing, and has nothing to do with who is or is not Israel.

 

God used physical Israel to help Him bring forth Spiritual Israel-paralleling His plan of salvation for mankind.

 

There is no spiritual Israel.   The Bible knows nothing of a "spiritual Israel."   That is a man made term born of sloppy theology.

Just as in Ezekiel 36 where God's spirit is promised to Israel, Ephesians 2:22 describes the indwelling of God's spirit to the church.

 

Israel was God's first born Ex 4:22

 

And the New Testament church is referred to as God's first born Heb 12:23

 

Wrong.  Hebrews 12:23 refers to us as the "church of the Firstborn."    The Firstborn in that verse is referring to Jesus.  We are the Church of Jesus Christ, and He is the "Firstborn" of creation, meaning He is the preimminent one of creation, the chief or head of all creation.

The church has an important role to mankind-first by receiving the physical blessings in the OT and then by receiving the spiritual blessings in the NT through Christ.

 

The Bible doesn't say that,  Sorry but you are wrong.   The Church receives none of the physical blessings promised to Israel and you have no Scripture that says otherwise.

 

Hey Shiloh,

 

I think church and congregation basically have the same meaning so I don't see a problem with that translation.  I'm curious if you could go further in your response that in Romans 9 Paul was speaking about Israel but was Pauls job to preach to the Gentiles?  Thank you.

 

Hi Rob,

 

In Romans Paul writes to the church but addresses the Jews and the Gentiles separately at certain points. For instance, in chapter 2:17 Paul turns his attention to the Jewish believers. His address to them continues through to chapter 11:13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles believers. What's interesting here is how many times he mentions the Law in the discourse with the Jewish believers which is 65 times. When he turns to the Gentiles he only mentions the Law twice and both times effectively says that love is the fulfillment of the Law

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Living under the law of the bond woman, the Jews did not recognize Jesus as the coming Messiah. They continue to live under the promise that God gave Abraham. Most all churches today, even in this land, continue to live by the law. That is what they are still being preached and that is what is believed. Then came the separation from the law, oh my Jesus, being born of the free woman, preaching the baptism of the Spirit. Now, go read Romans ch.8, as it goes into even more detail, paying attention to v.15-17.

God bless

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Hi Neb,

 

I just realized that you have over 50K post...you must really love worthyboards...lol  Thank you for your response. My question now is where else would he have met with Gentiles if not in the Synogogues? 

 

Yes, I have been here a long time, and I have joined in many, many conversations.

 

I am not following your train of thought.

 

Acts 17:17

So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present.

 

 

Yes, there were Gentiles who feared God who met with the Jews in their synagogues. But as you can see here as well, Paul preached in the market place - which we can safely assume was mostly Gentiles.

 

 

Acts 16

12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the district of Macedonia, a Roman colony ; and we were staying in this city for some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside , where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer ; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled. 14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening ; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

 

And here is another place he met Gentiles.

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The Gentiles do not need to be circumcised because we are not under the covenant of Abraham. We are under the New Covenant of Jesus.

 

The Holy Spirit is a part of Jesus' New Covenant, not a part of of the old Abrahamic Covenant.

 

Just because the word "Israel" has a meaning, that does not mean his name applies to us.

God uses names in the bible a lot of times to reflect a purpose or signify what the person represents - Jesus means " God is our salvation ".

And Israel's name applied to Israel. There is not indication the body of believers whom we in English call "the Church" is not a single person, not founded by anyone but Jesus, and was not given a name - like the man Abraham or the man Israel were given.

 

Abraham, Israel, received physical promises but the spiritual promises of the covenant were to come with the ministry, crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.

Please list these spiritual promises.

 

 

Heb 8: 6-8 -shows the old covenant had been broken by disobedience-and 2 Cor 3:6-9 show the new covenant is part of the better promises

I hope you know that there was more than one covenant in the Old Testament?

 

Adam had a covenant, Noah had a covenant, Abraham had a covenant, The children of Israel with Moses had a covenant, David had a covenant.

 

The "old covenant" spoken of in Heb. and 2 Cor. was the Mt. Sinai covenant, the one cut with the children of Israel with Moses, also known as the Mosaic covenant.

 

 

With Jesus we see the physical aspects of the old covenant like sacrifices, circumcision are no longer required. Jesus represents the new priesthood.

 

Agreed, but nothing in the covenant states a replacing of "Israel".

 

The new covenant was given to the Israel (the Jews), as was prophecied, but the people of the nations (the gentiles) were granted access to this covenant as well.

 

Only a remnant from both sides (Jews and Gentile) received this covenant.

 

 

Circumcision can be voluntary but not necessary for salvation regardless of physical lineage or heritage. Viewing circumcision as necessary, even to the Jewish converts to Christianity  would imply that faith and the blood of Jesus was not enough for them.

 

Circumcision was a sign of the covenant with Abraham.

 

 

 

We obey the law of circumcision when our attitudes are circumcised. We no longer need an outward sign with our savior Jesus Christ. We are keeping both covenants with the better promises of inward obedience written in our hearts. The physical promised land was Canaan -the spiritual promised land is the Kingdom of God.

 

Canaan was given to the the descendants of Israel, not the descendants of "Abraham." That Covenant only passes on through Isaac and Jacob (Israel).

 

Re: Spiritual promises to Israel we can look at Gen 49:10 -one of the spiritual promises God made to Abraham was the promise of the Messiah, His Son Jesus Christ, coming 

 

as our savior to redeem us from our sins and provide the way to eternal life.

 

The descendants of Israel were also the descendants of Abraham.

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