The_Patriot21 Posted February 27, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,696 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 8,516 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted February 27, 2014 heresy! get back to the kitchen! lol just kidding. I enjoyed the article, made some excellent points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 heresy! get back to the kitchen! lol just kidding. I enjoyed the article, made some excellent points. What were the excellent points? I thought the article was silly for the most part. First we have that about men earning a living by the sweat of the brow. It is not a commandment that men sweat while they work, but a curse, neither is God commanding that women have to be in pain while in labor. When it says the husband shall rule over his wife, that is also because of the curse. The woman was given as a help meet, and the husband was always the head, but the difference since the curse is strife that didn't originally exist, requiring him to actually take authority over his wife. God the Father is the head of Jesus Christ, but he doesn't have to rule over him because they have perfect unity. A curse is not a commandment. The scripture about greeting with a holy kiss is just telling people, (I am assuming men and women), to give a courteous greeting to each other, and that was the normal practice at the time. They still do this in some place. I believe that even the Beechy Amish do it today. I have to problem with reviving the custom if people want to. Just don't catch them off guard with it or you might get punched int he nose. Being Pentecostal, I have been in the habit of raising my hand in praise to God, and I see men and women do this all the time. I do that going down the highway sometimes. I am not sure what church this person goes to if the men don't do it but the women do. The article did give me one thing to consider, and that is to look deeper at the teachings we may overlook, and to try to determine how they can be applied today. I sweat all the time on my job, but I suppose if I wanted to sweat as a white collar guy, I could have casual business meetings in a steam room. And that about women keeping silent is dealing with not being disruptive asking questions about what is being taught. It isn't saying women can't give testimonies or sing or praise the Lord openly. It is not so much a custom as saying not to be disruptive. I don't know who this Roberta Ellis is, but it just comes across to me like she has resentment over things being taught concerning women, and she is trying to say that men don't follow certain things so they are somehow being hypocritical. Even if she is right, say with something like the holy kiss, which I would think applies to women too, that wouldn't make null and void a single scripture. It would only mean we have work to do in following other scriptures we are neglecting. I immediately thought about taking a little wine for our stomach's sake. Should we start making a point to do that? Who knows what other nuggets of truth are in the Bible we are overlooking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 27, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.96 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 heresy! get back to the kitchen! lol just kidding. I enjoyed the article, made some excellent points. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted February 27, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2014 When I was a kid...during the last century, I used to drink my dad's Alka Seltzer because I was and still am a Fizz-a-holic. Gotta have me those burning bubbles Of course when he needed it, he would find less then when last used. Yes, I was a prime suspect. Mind you, I never had an upset stomach during those years. I'm one of those people who believe that Jesus did, actually, turn the water into wine and not grape juice with 0% alcohol as some teach. I actually like the taste of Alka Seltzer too, and got to where I started drinking Seltzer water when I didn't need the stomach remedy. Those would be fighting words for a lot of people, saying you believe Jesus turned the water into real wine with alcohol, but I completely agree with you. At the wedding feast, they mentioned how at most weddings, they will serve the good wine first, and when people had been drinking a while, the lesser quality wine. That only makes sense if it was fermented. I am glad we can find common ground on something, even if it is something as trivial as liking Alka Seltzer and believing Jesus turned water into real wine. What are your thoughts on the potential health benefits of a small amount of wine? I can't remember all the details of the article, so you might want to look into it yourself if you even find the subject interesting, but there had been a study of wine and a reduction in heart disease. In the study I read, if you were to drink wine in small amounts, where your blood alcohol level was between .02 and .04, supposedly it reduced heart disease, but if you drank wine more heavily, it had no positive effects. I think there was also positive effects for those who drank wine where the alcohol had been removed. I couldn't tell you how they do that, but there is some way to take the alcohol out of fermented wine. Given the scripture, do you think there could be benefits to drinking small amounts of wine every once in a while with meals or just having a glass now and then? Well, I like Club Soda which has no taste but blows fizz up your nose haha...like I said, love the bubbles Anyhows, the church I grew up in had real wine at the communion service but if you objected to that, they had juice for you. In my case it is also cultural. I am first generation Canadian, so, my family, being European as in German, Swiss and most likely some Austrian, thought nothing of serving wine with a meal...kids got a little with either cranberry juice or ginger ale. It was nothing but another beverage, albeit one that may cause consternation in some circles. No one in my family ever had an alcohol problem and no one ever thought it was a sin to have wine or brandy or whatever, but we do not get drunk and personally, I can take it or leave it but will have some from time to time. I have observed that a person having wine or whatever is not usually the catalist for causing strife and division in church...that activity is served up with gossipers, backstabbers, busy bodies and the like. Frankly, and we may part company here, I would rather share a bottle of wine with an unconverted person then share a juicy story with a Christian. Yes, I do feel strongly about those who gossip having been the target of such on more than one occasion. Getting back to the wine, I believe (if I remember correctly) it is something in the grape itself...and I think I also read or heard something about extracting that substance and creating some sort of capsule one could take. Wouldn't that take the fun out of it though....LOL! I guess I just have a laissez-faire attitude that would startle some Christians...it's how I grew up. Maybe you will agree that it not being a forbidden thing to me, it has no allure or does not cause me any consternation should I decide to have a glass? You know how it is...the moment you tell someone they cannot do it, they want to do it. I also grew up in the province of Quebec and wine is part of culture there. yeah no worries with the health article...which you may have already guessed reading the above..I am really a coffee drinker...whether or not that is beneficial...you may know the 'experts' tend to flip flop on that one. Given Paul's advice to Timothy, I agree...vermouth is actually pretty good for the tummy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Thanks Sevenseas for your honest answer and it is nice to have a pleasant conversation for a change. I actually agree with you about gossip being much more of a problem in the church than drinking a glass of wine. The wine is only a problem if you wind up with a church full of drunks. The gossip will destroy lives and split churches. I have seen it first hand. Subjects like this will cause me problems in the conservative churches because I don't tow the conservative line if I think they are wrong, and I have never believed wine in the Bible was anything but alcohol. Now I don't believe Jesus ever sinned by getting drunk, nor do I believe any of the disciples did so, but I do believe they drank wine as a beverage, like we would drink a Pepsi Cola. It was never about getting drunk. I just try to follow scripture as best I can, and if that means being an old line conservative sometimes and coming across as liberal in other instances, so be it. Have a nice night. I would have a glass of wine with you, but I have to drive in early in the morning to make a delivery, so I will stick with coffee. It doesn't do anything for my stomach, but it does help me keep going down the road. I have a bit of a nervous stomach now, so I have an excuse for some of that plop plop fizz fizz. I need to find some ice cold water. It works better that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnochBethany Posted February 28, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2014 IMHO: Interesting how much Bible is ignored or rejected because it advocates something not politically correct. Vague objections (to clear Bible-teaching readily understandable) are put forth, like: "typically extrapolated from a single biblical text without regard to literary or historical context and followed by a parenthetical string of additional unrelated and out-of-context Bible verses for support." Just a wave of the hand to justify disobedience. A little shuckin & jivin. As to perspiring (hey now, it is against the rules to use explicit language here), the curse was lifted after the flood. Ethics is hierarchical in the Bible. A man is not to gross out another man in a society where men kissing men is loathsome. Now Russia is another matter. Now let me tell you that there was this huge mob of persons gathered at the Pearly Gates, seeking entrance. St. Pete came forth & told the mob: Now I want all you men who were forced by your wives to do their will to go to my left. All the men who did what they wanted, go to my right. There was considerable hubbub & dust raised. But when it was over every single man except one little schnook man was on the left, & schnook was on the right. St Pete said to him, "Why are you on the right?" Schnook: "I don't know, but my wife told me to stand here." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnochBethany Posted February 28, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2014 oh no...I still prefer wine....actually, I take those tums things if my little tummy does a tumble Christians are just hilarious arent' they? Years ago, I used Di-Gel, but they changed the formula and it doesn't work very good now. I switched to Alka Seltzer. There is nothing like it for a sick headache or old fashioned heart burn. It is nice to see you Sevenseas, and I am glad you brought this up, because I was thinking about the very issue of wine today. Notice what Paul said to Timothy. Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake, and thine often infirmities. 1 Timothy 1:24 I had skimmed over that verse in the past, and just looked at it as a primitive treatment for an upset stomach, but notice that he also tells him he is to use it for his "often infirmities." We know that many believe wine, in moderation of course, is good for you. I wonder if we overlook something here, and perhaps "a little wine" is actually something we should partake of for the sake of good health? Just something to think about. BTW, part of the curse in Genesis said women would have pain in child bearing. Surely nobody thinks it is wrong for women to use medicine to ease their pain? Some have infirmities oft indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted February 28, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,696 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 8,516 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted February 28, 2014 heresy! get back to the kitchen! lol just kidding. I enjoyed the article, made some excellent points. What were the excellent points? I thought the article was silly for the most part. First we have that about men earning a living by the sweat of the brow. It is not a commandment that men sweat while they work, but a curse, neither is God commanding that women have to be in pain while in labor. When it says the husband shall rule over his wife, that is also because of the curse. The woman was given as a help meet, and the husband was always the head, but the difference since the curse is strife that didn't originally exist, requiring him to actually take authority over his wife. God the Father is the head of Jesus Christ, but he doesn't have to rule over him because they have perfect unity. A curse is not a commandment. The scripture about greeting with a holy kiss is just telling people, (I am assuming men and women), to give a courteous greeting to each other, and that was the normal practice at the time. They still do this in some place. I believe that even the Beechy Amish do it today. I have to problem with reviving the custom if people want to. Just don't catch them off guard with it or you might get punched int he nose. Being Pentecostal, I have been in the habit of raising my hand in praise to God, and I see men and women do this all the time. I do that going down the highway sometimes. I am not sure what church this person goes to if the men don't do it but the women do. The article did give me one thing to consider, and that is to look deeper at the teachings we may overlook, and to try to determine how they can be applied today. I sweat all the time on my job, but I suppose if I wanted to sweat as a white collar guy, I could have casual business meetings in a steam room. And that about women keeping silent is dealing with not being disruptive asking questions about what is being taught. It isn't saying women can't give testimonies or sing or praise the Lord openly. It is not so much a custom as saying not to be disruptive. I don't know who this Roberta Ellis is, but it just comes across to me like she has resentment over things being taught concerning women, and she is trying to say that men don't follow certain things so they are somehow being hypocritical. Even if she is right, say with something like the holy kiss, which I would think applies to women too, that wouldn't make null and void a single scripture. It would only mean we have work to do in following other scriptures we are neglecting. I immediately thought about taking a little wine for our stomach's sake. Should we start making a point to do that? Who knows what other nuggets of truth are in the Bible we are overlooking? well it brings out that as men, we do often expect things from women, without giving them the same respect in return. For example, my smart alec comment earlier about women belonging in the kitchen-while it was a joke, how often do we as men, expect women to fit this perfect model of what we think they should be-and as christians, we expect them to hold themselves to certain verses be it titus 2, or the wifes submit to your husbands, while failing to hold ourselves to the same standards-we ignore the verse before the wifes submit to your husbands that tell husbands to cherish their wives. We dont follow the "greet one another with a holy kiss" Now Im not suggesting that we greet one another with a holy kiss, thats obviously a cultural thing, but, the article does point out the hypocrisy. Lets look at the point about women assuming authority over men. Well, we have churches today with women pastors-some with female elders. Is this Biblical? no. but my question is, where are the men? That women, is in that position 9 times out of ten, because no Godly men stood up and took it. men refused to do the role, leaving a hole, and a women took it. How can we blame the women there for not doing their job, when the men of that church arnt doing theres? The article, basically is getting across its a two way street-if we expect women to follow the Biblical model for them, we as men need to follow our role. yes it was humourous-but it drives home a good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 28, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.96 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 As to perspiring (hey now, it is against the rules to use explicit language here), the curse was lifted after the flood. Where do you see this mentioned in Scripture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnochBethany Posted February 28, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2014 As to perspiring (hey now, it is against the rules to use explicit language here), the curse was lifted after the flood. Where do you see this mentioned in Scripture? Where in scripture? Why Titus 2, of course! Just kidding. It is in the start of the blessed Noahic Covenant of Gen 9 " And Noah builded an altar unto Jehovah, and took of every clean beast, and of every clean bird, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar. 21 And Jehovah smelled the sweet savor; and Jehovah said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake, for that the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done. 22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease." Hold on thar, it shud say "the imagination of woman's heart is evil from her youth!" But setting that aside, Let us lift up the voice & sing: Q Summer and winter, and springtime and harvest, Sun, moon and stars in their courses above, Join with all nature in manifold witness To Thy great faithfulness, mercy and love. Chorus: Great is Thy faithfulness!” “Great is Thy faithfulness!“ Morning by morning new mercies I see; All I have needed Thy hand hath provided— “Great is Thy faithfulness,” Lord, unto me! unQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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