Fasting in the Bible?

[Guest Butero]

I don't think fasting was ever a command, even in the OT.  I don't believe anyone suggested it is.  It is just something that is expected and encouraged.  If you don't ever fast, I don't believe it has any bearing on your salvation.  I don't fast that often, but I have on occasion, if I have a reason to. 

[EnochBethany]

:And were there not fasts in which the entire nation of Israel took place?"

 

The only fast I know of in the Law of Moses is the Great Day of Atonement, where it says (not "fast,") but affict your souls.

 

J Vernon McGee pointed out that the Lord gave them feast days instead of fast days.

 

 

 

[EnochBethany]

How about FEASTING IN THE BIBLE

as a topic?

 

Is the Christian doing his dutiful feasting?

( or moping about with a prune face?)

[Sevenseas]

 

 

Verily it was posted:

 

"Fasting can't have been done away with."

 

Oy verily....it has not been done away with but even that does not seem to characterize a command  ... I may have read that, but it does not strike me as a "Thus saith....."

 

 

 

To that claim I replied:

 

To prove that one, you need a commandment to the Church, which you have not quoted.

 

Let me know when you find one verse that commands fasting (not merely mentioning that some Jew somewhere did it).

 

OK~  it''s all clear now.  A person was kind of asking a question (hinted at by the word surely) and you thought they were proving or trying to prove a command.  I don't follow that,

but apparently you saw it that way.  If you would mind quoting the number of the post for some kind of reference it would help...I have no idea who said that, or when and that

statement lacks context and makes your interpretation hard to follow...not trying to be sarcastic

 

 

 

And now 7C's admits:

 

"It's really kind of funny that you keep asking for something no one has said existed."

 

On that I can rest my case.  No scripture ever commands the Church to fast!

And we are not under the law!

 

No one said we under the law and I honestly do not perceive a desire to prove a command to fast in the brief sentence that actually appears, at the moment due to a lack of context,  so I think

what we really have here "Much Ado About Nothing"

 

Then & 7C continues with a straw-man admonition:

 

"You might consider the spirit of the law rather than just the words.  After all, the spirit gives life but the letter kills.  The only thing written in stone was the Ten Commandments...

as Christians, we now have that law written on our hearts and we are changed after the image of Christ.  We desire to please God and we want to do as the Holy Spirit leads us. "

 

Yes indeed, but what you say has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not the Body of Christ, the Church, should fast.  If you don't have scripture, don't try to tell others that you have a special pipe-line to God, & the Church had best do as you say.

 

yes it does actually.  It has everything to do with it.  Believers are to be led by the Holy Spirit....we have a new heart and we are to walk in the light...not the shadow of commands.

 

Honestly, you are trying to prove something no one said with your personal interpretation of word vs spirit when actually, they work together

 

7 C goes on:

 

"Fasting, is a discipline or spiritual exercise that falls well within the norm for a Christian."

 

Do you have scripture to prove that fasting is a discipline?  When the Lord Jesus fasted for 40 days, apparently He did not hunger until at the very end.  If a man is so taken up with the Lord that the man is not interested in eating, is that a discipline? 

 

Yes...and others have quoted them as well...here, to refresh your memory:

 

I. FASTING IN THE LIFE OF JESUS

A. JESUS FASTED FORTY DAYS IN THE WILDERNESS - Mt 4:1-9; Lk 4:1-2

1. He was led into the wilderness "to be tempted" (Mt)

2. He was "tempted for forty days by the devil" (Lk)

3. "in those days He ate nothing" (Lk)

-- Throughout this forty day period of temptation, Jesus felt it

appropriate to fast

B. JESUS TAUGHT ON FASTING IN HIS "SERMON ON THE MOUNT" - Mt 6:16-18

1. Jesus said "when", not "if"; assuming his disciples WOULD fast

2. When done properly a person would be rewarded by the Father...

a. Suggesting that fasting was like prayer and giving alms

b. I.e., an act of righteousness done to please the Father

-- Fasting appears to have a place in the righteousness expected

of those who would be citizens of the kingdom of heaven

C. WHEN QUESTIONED BY JOHN'S DISCIPLES - Mt 9:14-17 (Mk 2:18-20;

Lk 5:33-39)

1. Jesus described a time when his disciples would fast

2. But it is inappropriate to fast when the occasion does not

call for it

-- Fasting would have a place in the disciples' lives, but only

on appropriate occasions (not as a ceremonial rite)

D. THE COMBINED POWER OF PRAYER AND FASTING - Mt 17:14-21 (Mk 9:

14-29)

1. There are times when faith alone is not enough

2. At these times prayer joined with fasting is necessary

-- Fasting joined with prayer may accomplish things which normal

faith may not

[Now let's take a look at...]

II. FASTING IN THE LORD'S CHURCH

A. THE CHURCH AT ANTIOCH - Ac 13:1-3

1. They were fasting as a group while ministering to the Lord

2. They fasted and prayed in preparation to sending out Barnabas

and Saul

-- Fasting, when accompanied with prayer, can done as a group

when involved in serving the Lord

B. THE CHURCHES IN GALATIA - Ac 14:21-23

1. Again, an example of fasting and prayer as a group; this time,

in conjunction with the serious task of appointing elders

2. Notice that this was done "in every church"

a. Not just in one or two churches

b. Not just in what might be consider "Jewish" churches where

fasting might be considered "just a Jewish custom"

-- Again, fasting can be a group activity in the work of a local

church

[Now let's examine...]

III. FASTING IN THE MINISTRY OF THE APOSTLE PAUL

A. FASTING WAS A MARK OF HIS MINISTRY...

1. We have already noticed where he fasted with several churches

2. But notice also:

a. 2Co 6:4-10 (cf. verse 5)

b. 2Co 11:23-28 (cf. verse 27 where fasting is mentioned

separately from normal hunger and thirst)

-- In both of these passages, Paul mentioned fasting as a mark of

his ministry and of his good standing as a minister of Christ!

B. HE ALSO TAUGHT THAT FASTING MIGHT HAVE A PLACE IN THE LIVES OF

OTHERS...

1. Cf. 1Co 7:5

2. The only time husbands and wives may deprive one another is

when by consent they devote themselves to fasting and prayer

for a specific period of time

CONCLUSION

1. Though not actually Christians at the time, we also have other

examples of those who fasted and were blessed by God...

a. Anna - Lk 2:36-38

b. Saul - Ac 9:9

c. Cornelius - Ac 10:30-31

2. As a summary, then, here is what we have seen in this study:

a. That our Lord fasted in time of temptation

b. That He taught His disciples about fasting on several occasions

c. That He foretold of a time in which His disciples would fast

d. That there are times when the combination of fasting and prayer

might be more efficacious than prayer alone

e. That the early church fasted in their service to the Lord

f. That Paul regarded fasting as a mark of his ministry

g. That prayer and fasting often go hand in hand, utilized whenever

there was a strong desire for God's blessing and guidance

 

-- In view of such things, I can only conclude that fasting does indeed have a place in the lives of Christians today. Again, it is a choice of course and if a person does not want to

practice it, there is no condemnation that I am aware of

 

Norm; i.e. a rule commanded?  It you have scripture which says that fasting is the norm for the Church, kindly post it.

 

As indicated above by the many scripture references, it is the norm.  It may not be for you, but I will take the Bible over your opinion...again, not being sarcastic as it occurs to me, we do not gain the same

understanding reading the same things

 

How about this....can you find in the Bible where we are told NOT to fast?

 

So we should stand on our heads every day at 1 AM because the Bible never tells us not to do so?

 

Jesus said that if our eye causes us to sin, we should pluck it out.  Should we?  Would YOU?

 

I have not argued, "Thou shalt not fast."  An argument might be made from the statement of the Lord that His disciples did not fast because He was with them; thus time to concentrate on celebration.  When He was gone they would fast.  Hence we conclude that when He was in the tomb, they fasted.  But Mat 28 tells us after the resurrection that now He is with us always!  Moreover, we are commanded to rejoice!

 

I can honestly say I have never ever heard that translation before.  How do you account for all the fasting AFTER Jesus ascended?  You can find some of those references in the handy re-post of scripture verses having to do with fasting that I included in this post

 

 

 

Next 7C turns to ye olde ad hominem; discuss the poster:

 

 I think yr emphasis is on the written word but I think most people are answering from that word

 

Well, that would be against the TOS, so if you think I have done that in the sentence above or any other place, hit the handy report button

 

 

And then another straw man statement:

 

"under the help of the Holy Spirit..He is our helper and teacher you know and not just the third person who evidenced Himself at creation and forever after was never heard from again."

 

I understand you do not believe that the Holy Spirit personally leads us, but Jesus promised Him to us and He indwells every believer but He does not force us to live out scripture nor does

he force us to believe He still bestows gifts as God wills.  

 

And 7C goes on at length in this vein, seeming to lecture me on balancing Bible & Spirit as if this bolstered his claims.  Is this a claim of spiritual superiority?  I should believe your statements because you are more spiritual than I?  What you said was very true; but it is out of place when debating fasting.

 

No...I don't lecture...I am sorry you see my inclusion and consideration of what is true regarding the Holy Spirit, as something to be dismissed.  

 

1) The Holy Spirit Reveals God’s Will

Specifically He reveals God’s command of Acts 17:30 that “all men everywhere repent.”

The Holy Spirit “convicts the world of sin, and righteousness, and judgment,” in John 16:8. In other word the Spirit show us that we are sinners, separated from God, and that forgiveness is found through Christ.

In the Old Testament He convicts through the prophets who 2 Peter 1:21 tells us “spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”

In the New Testament He convicts through the apostles who in John 14:26 the Sprit, “taught them all things, and brought to their remembrance all things that Jesus said to them.”

And in Ephesians 4:11 we see that He convicts through us today by given gifts to some to become “evangelists, pastors and teachers.”

1 Corinthians 2 show us that another aspect of the Spirit revealing of God’s will comes by opening our hearts to spiritual truths. This gives us the ability to both understand and respond to God’s calling.

So the Holy Spirit reveals God’s will to Man by using messengers who faithfully proclaim His Word and by giving him the ability to understand their message.

2) The Holy Spirit Applies Salvation

The Holy Spirit applied salvation to both Old and New Testament believers. The difference being that in the Old Testament believers looked forward to what Christ would do whereas in the New Testament and today we look back on what He has done.

Now 1 Corinthians 6:11 tells us that we were “washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

So once the Spirit has convicted us of our sin, and has given us the ability to understand the gospel, He washes us of our sin once we respond. He does this by sanctifying us, which means He sets us apart from the world and unto God to receive salvation and become more like Him.

Then we’re justified, or declared innocent of sin. This is done when the Spirit takes Christ’s perfect sacrifice and credits it to our account. This means that when God looks upon us He sees Christ’s perfection and not our imperfection.

3) The Holy Spirit Indwells Us

This is the area where we see a fascinating difference between how the Spirit worked in the Old and New Testament.

In the Old Testament the Spirit didn’t dwell “in” the believer He dwelt “with” the believer. We see this in Exodus 25:8 when God says, “Let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them.”

Again in Deuteronomy 12:5, “You shall seek the place where the LORD your God chooses, out of all your tribes, to put His name for His dwelling place; and there you shall go.”

And again in 1 Kings 8:13 where Solomon, after building the Temple, says, “I have surely built You an exalted house, and a place for You to dwell in forever.”

Now compare that to the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. Jesus says in John 14:17-18, “The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.”

Again in 2 Cor 3:16, “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?”

And again Ephesians 1:13-14, “You were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance.”

The hope of the Old Testament believer lay in the fact that God was “over there” in the Temple. But he could only get so close because of the restrictions of the Law and His presence was limited to Israel. But the hope of the New Testament believer and for us today lays in the fact that God dwells “in us”.

We are “part of the body of Christ” which is made up of people of nations, tribes and tongues. The Old Testament believer was limited to how close he got to God. But through Christ we can “come boldly to the throne of grace.” He has promised to never “leave us or forsake us” and His continual presence guarantees our salvation.

4) The Holy Spirit Give Us Spiritual Gifts

This is another area where we see an interesting difference between the Spirit’s Old and New Testament work.

In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit indwelled believers and gave them gifts only on special occasions. But the indwelling wasn’t always permanent as we see in 1 Samuel 16:14 when “the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul” and again in Judges 16:20 when Samson “did not know that the LORD had departed from him.”

Additionally the Holy Spirit only gave gifts to certain people for specific tasks. For example in Numbers 11 Moses and the seventy elders are given the Holy Spirit to rule the people. Or in Genesis 41 where Joseph is said to have the Spirit of God within him because of his ability to interpret dreams.

Now let’s compare this to how the Holy Spirit gives gifts in the New Testament and today.

We’re blessed with “every spiritual blessing” Ephesians 1:3 tells us. Those blessings come by the will of the Father, through the work of the Son and are applied by the power of the Holy Spirit.

All believers now have the Holy Spirit, Eph1:13 tells us, when “having believed in Christ, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.”

Each person has a purpose and has been given whatever gift is necessary to complete that purpose. These gifts enable us to perform the “good works, which God prepared for us beforehand” and produce the fruits of the Spirit which is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

The Holy Spirit lives within the believer in 1 Corinthians 6:19, causes our sinful nature to be born again in Titus 3:5) baptizes us into the family of God in 1 Corinthians 12:13, helps us to understand the Bible in 1 Corinthians 2:9-13, guides us in Romans 8:14, strengthens our faith in Ephesians 3:16-19, and serves as the guarantee of our salvation in Ephesians 1:13-14.

 

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.  John 14:26

 

Now just what does that have to do with finding that fasting is not commanded to the Church?  Are you saying that the Spirit is on your side and that those who don't agree with you are thus non-spiritual, having brushed aside the ministry of the Spirit?  If you want to discuss fasting, keep to the subject please.

 

The Holy Spirit does not take sides, nor do angels nor does God.. We are the ones who choose...and the Bible tells us plainly what our choices are.

 

" Some things, like following dreams and visions instead of

having our minds renewed by the written word, are just plain dangerous."

 

I agree.  I have never heard a claim for revelation nowadays via vision or dream that I had any reason to believe.

 

So 7C, we need both of us to read scripture & trust the Lord for wisdom.

 

I search the scriptures, for in them I find Jesus.  The Holy Spirit is my Helper, my Teacher and most definately brings to my mind the words found therein...and has done over and over.  He makes the words fresh, assures me of salvation, convicts me when I sin and need to apologize or make amends...you know, without the Helper that God sent when Jesus returned to heaven, I would be just a dry pile of bones with a leather bound book in my hand that I would hit people over the head with because I would be a self righteous zealot...much like the teachers in Jesus day.

 

“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.  John 14

 

 

 

[EnochBethany]

Sevenseas says:

 

   "I would be just a dry pile of bones with a leather bound book in my hand that I would hit people over the head with because I would be a self righteous zealot...much like the teachers in Jesus day."

 

It is a false dichotomy to pit the Bible vs the Holy Spirit.  The entrance of God's word brings light.  Is it my imagination or is it bad-mouthing the Bible to calling quoting scripture "hit people over the head with"?

 

The Bible is our sword, part of the armor of the Lord, which we are to use.  The Lord Jesus did not refrain from quoting the scripture because it was "hitting people over the head."  Now the idea that a man should make up his own scripture (on the claim that he has the Spirit) and bad-mouth Bible-quoting, is putting oneself over the Bible.

 

I still wait for someone to quote a Bible verse to the Church commanding fasting, verse from the oldest manuscripts.

 

This issue does intersect with determining which is the best original text of the Bible, as proof-texts for fasting are likely to come out of the Textus Receptus, reflected by the King Jimmy.  Take for example 1 Cor 7:5:

The following manuscripts do not have fasting there:

 

Papyri p46 & p11 (apparently). ℵ✱ A B C D F G P Y 6 33 81 104 263 424c 459 1175 1739 1881 1912 1962 2200 2464.

The following "Church Fathers" (in general) do not have fasting in referring to this verse: Clement Origen, Dionysius Methodius Timothy-Alexandria Didymus Epiphanius; Tertullian Cyprian Ambrosiaster Ambrose Jerome Pelagius Augustine.

 

 τῇ νηστείᾳ (the fasting) is added by

 

the second corrector hand of ℵ 0150 256 365 424✱ 436 1241 1319 1573 1852 2127 and the Byzantine text (textus receptus).  Chrysostom also has it in one of his writings or sermons.

 

(note: papyri are the super old texts of the NT.  These are partial texts of the NT [probably made before anyone sewed the whole NT together].  the symbol ℵ refers to Sinaiticus.  Sinaiticus and B (Vaticanus) are regarded as the 2 oldest relatively complete codices  of the Bible.)

 

IMHO:

Ascetism is not taught in the Bible.  However, after the NT many religionists turned to ascetism, as if severity to the body made one holy.  Men started living in caves, taking vows of poverty, abstaining from sex, beating themselves, doing things like wearing wool shirts, itchy side in.  The NT assures us that ascetism is of no value vs the sinful flesh.  Jerome records how he withdrew from society & lived in a cave, starved himself. Then what went thru his mind but dancing women!

 

I prefer the oldest manuscripts to late medieval manuscripts that have "fasting" added.

 

The Spirit breathes upon the Word & brings the truth to light.  One should not pit Spirit vs God's Word as competing sources of truth.

[Sevenseas]

It is a false dichotomy to pit the Bible vs the Holy Spirit.  The entrance of God's word brings light.  Is it my imagination or is it bad-mouthing the Bible to calling quoting scripture "hit people over the head with"? 

 

 

 

As I have quoted more scripture than anyone else in this thread, I am going to begin to believe that honest exchange is not really your interest here

[GoldenEagle]

As teh OP of this thread I think I'm gonna close it down. Thanks for all your contributions. It was interesting.