Devoted more to the Scriptures than to the God of the Scriptures?

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone is continuing to debate, partially based on a lie.  I am referring to John 5:39.  Jesus never said the Pharisees had been searching the scriptures.  He told them they need to search the scriptures.  It appears Jesus is saying that because of a poorly worded translation Nebula was using, but notice what it says in the KJV Bible.

 

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:  and they are they which testify of me.

 

See how much different that is when you take the word "You" out of it.  I could use this as a jumping off point to attack her translation, but I don't even think her translation is saying anything different than mine.  It was not meaning they already do it, even in that translation, but it is saying that they need to search the scriptures, because if they do, they will see how they testify of Christ.  If you are basing your conclusions that the religious crowd studied scripture based on that, you are wrong. 

 

Except that according to what Shiloh and Qnts are posting, they knew the Scriptures.

 

 

But even so, by this wording: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life" - it sounds as if Jesus is saying that they are wrong in thinking that they find eternal life in the Scriptures.

 

 

Yup, they thought by searching and studying scripture, dedicating themselves to study and the commands, they had eternal life. Jesus is saying simply, they are missing that scripture is about Him. Scripture is about the Messiah, and that they are to come to the Messiah, but they refused. That is exactly what happened. The Pharisees studied scripture, taught scripture, expounded on the scripture, about the Mosaic covenant. But, they never came to Jesus. They missed the Messiah, or 'the hour of their visitation'.      

 

 

John 5:38 ^]You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; ⁴⁰ and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

 

In comparison:

 

John 1:45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

  

Judaism divided the OT into three separate books. The Torah, which is the books of Moses or 'the Law', the Neviim which are the Prophets, and the final book is the Ketuvim, called the Writings. In this verse, two of the three books are mentioned, saying, the Messiah of whom the Torah and Neviim wrote about, Philip found Him. Philip knew the scriptures. But unlike many of the Pharisees, Philip found the One whom the Tenakh wrote about. (TeNaKh is an acronym for all three books. T for Torah, N for Neviim, and K for Ketuvim). 

 

Nebula, I know you know this stuff, but I am repeating it for those who might not have heard these Jewish expressions.

 

That is not true.  Jesus did not say they had studied the scriptures.  

 

Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:  and they are they which testify of me.  John 5:39

 

That is the entire verse.  Nebula's Bible doesn't even really disagree with the KJV Bible, but her translation is easier to misunderstand because of the way it is worded.  Nothing you said can be proven true.  Jesus never indicated that the Pharisees had already studied scriptures and that by doing so thought it would give them eternal life.  It only says that the religious crowd thought they had eternal life because they had Abraham as their Father.  It never says they believed they had eternal life because they studied hard.  If you disagree, I challenge you to prove that is the reason they thought they had eternal life. 

 

Yes, He did. In this case, I would call your interpretation a 'private interpretation', but scripture clearly shows that they search the scripture thinking that in them they had eternal life, but missed that the scripture was speaking of Jesus so refused to come to Him.. They had studied the scripture and missed the Messiah.

 

But, I think your theory is that study of scripture guarantees knowledge of Messiah, so salvation. It sound like you are trying to say, a person can not truly study scripture, and miss Jesus, therefore the Pharisees could not have really studied scripture since they missed Jesus. Which of course isn't true since salvation needs the drawing of God, and the Holy Spirit revealing the truth too. A person can study scripture for their entire lives without the Holy Spirit and miss Jesus. Salvation is a work of God.  

 

It is not my private interpretation.  It is what is written in my KJV Bible, which is what I go by.  No, I am not claiming studying scripture guarantees seeing Jesus in it, but I am saying that Jesus never said the Pharisees had actually studied scripture, and that is the reason they believe they have eternal life.  He said they think they have eternal life because they look to Abraham as their Father.  I am not even interpreting that verse.  I am taking it as written in my Bible.  I am rejecting Nebula's translation because it makes the passage unclear.  I don't even think they meant it like you are taking it, which is why I didn't make a big deal about the KJV verses her version.  It isn't so much that her translation had it wrong.  It is just unclear the way they wrote it. 

 

I will give you a quote from a very famous Pharisee who died in 7 ce.

 

Hillel the elder was the head of a large Rabbinical (Pharisaical) in Jerusalem, and very popular in Jesus day, as well as today.

 

The Pharisees taught the general people, and would often stand at the gates to teach. One day Hillel was standing at the gate and saw some men going to work.

 

"How much," he asked, "will you earn to-day?" One said: "A denarius"; the second: "Two denarii." "What will you do with the money?" he inquired. "We will provide for the necessities of life." Then said he to them: "Would you not rather come and make the Torah your possession, that you may possess both this and the future world?" 

 

This story explains the view of scripture from the Pharisees. Study the Torah and you will possess eternal life (the future world or the world to come are Jewish expressions for the equivalent of eternal life or the Messianic age). This is what Jesus was answering when He said they searched scripture, thinking they will find eternal life.    

[EnochBethany]

With regard to the Scribe & Pharisees (up in this thread, not sure who posted it):

 

One big problem they had was setting aside the Word of God & making tradition primary.  The Lord Jesus rebuked them for it.

 

As to going to Bible school, college, or seminary:

 

it is annoying to hear Bible college study bad-mouthed.  Young men & women go to Bible college to learn God's word, taught by men who have the spiritual gift of teaching.  Bible college facilitates studying to show yourself approved to God a workman who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing God's word.  The Bible college provides a structure of discipline to encourage diligent study. One has deadlines, assignments, tests to take.  Also there is practical Christian service so far as I know as a general part of Bible college experience, somewhat like the Matthew 10 assignment by the Lord Jesus to his apostles.

 

In the days of Elisha, there were the sons of the prophets, a community under Elisha.  2 Kings 4 has one of my favorite Bible verses in that context:  "O man of God, there's death in the pot!"

 

Actually by just going about your daily tasks, reading the Bible a little, meeting with Christians where everyone gives their opinion off the top of their heads, once in a while reading a commentary -- that is no comparison to Bible college.  But the point is not "go to Bible college," it is that if one would be a man of God one must diligently study God's Word seeking illumination from the Spirit -- also, one needs to listen to men of God who have the spiritual gift of teaching.  There may be different ways to accomplish that goal.

[EnochBethany]

Butero posted at length & included this:

 

Have you ever tried to walk around in the dark, with no light at all?  You tend to stumble.  You might fall down and get hurt.  That is what life is like when you don't have God's Word on the inside.

 

(Without any reference to persons who post here, whose writings I am not yet very familiar with), I heartily agree with what you posted on God's Word, etc.  Amen

[nebula]

Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:  and they are they which testify of me.  John 5:39

 

I do not understand what you hear with this?

 

Search the Scriptures: = Jesus tells them they need to search the Scriptures - not learn the Scriptures nor read the Scriptures, but search the Scriptures - meaning "look for the witness there."

 

for in them ye think ye have eternal life: = They think they have eternal life in the Scriptures.

 

and they are they which testify of me. = But the Scriptures actually testify of Jesus. Jesus is saying that the evidene of who He is in right there in the Scriptures.

 

 

Of course, I find it very odd to hear anyone claim that the Pharisees did not know the Scriptures.

 

"...[The Pharisees] were concerned that the spiritual life of the people should be centered in the Torah and the Synagogue. While the Sadducean priesthood prided itself upon its aristocracy of blood (Sanh. iv. 2; Mid. v. 4; Ket. 25a; Josephus, "Contra Ap." i., § 7), the Pharisees created an aristocracy of learning instead, declaring a bastard who is a student of the Law to be higher in rank than an ignorant high priest (Hor. 13a), "

 

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12087-pharisees

[Guest]

My

 

O send out thy light and thy truth: let them lead me; let them bring me unto thy holy hill, and to thy tabernacles.
 

Then will I go unto the altar of God, unto God my exceeding joy: yea, upon the harp will I praise thee, O God my God.
 

Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God. Psalms 43:3-5

 

Anchor

 

Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hebrews 6:19-20

 

In The Storm

 

Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word. Psalms 119:114

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone is continuing to debate, partially based on a lie.  I am referring to John 5:39.  Jesus never said the Pharisees had been searching the scriptures.  He told them they need to search the scriptures.  It appears Jesus is saying that because of a poorly worded translation Nebula was using, but notice what it says in the KJV Bible.

 

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:  and they are they which testify of me.

 

See how much different that is when you take the word "You" out of it.  I could use this as a jumping off point to attack her translation, but I don't even think her translation is saying anything different than mine.  It was not meaning they already do it, even in that translation, but it is saying that they need to search the scriptures, because if they do, they will see how they testify of Christ.  If you are basing your conclusions that the religious crowd studied scripture based on that, you are wrong. 

 

Except that according to what Shiloh and Qnts are posting, they knew the Scriptures.

 

 

But even so, by this wording: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life" - it sounds as if Jesus is saying that they are wrong in thinking that they find eternal life in the Scriptures.

 

 

Yup, they thought by searching and studying scripture, dedicating themselves to study and the commands, they had eternal life. Jesus is saying simply, they are missing that scripture is about Him. Scripture is about the Messiah, and that they are to come to the Messiah, but they refused. That is exactly what happened. The Pharisees studied scripture, taught scripture, expounded on the scripture, about the Mosaic covenant. But, they never came to Jesus. They missed the Messiah, or 'the hour of their visitation'.      

 

 

John 5:38 ^]You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; ⁴⁰ and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

 

In comparison:

 

John 1:45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

  

Judaism divided the OT into three separate books. The Torah, which is the books of Moses or 'the Law', the Neviim which are the Prophets, and the final book is the Ketuvim, called the Writings. In this verse, two of the three books are mentioned, saying, the Messiah of whom the Torah and Neviim wrote about, Philip found Him. Philip knew the scriptures. But unlike many of the Pharisees, Philip found the One whom the Tenakh wrote about. (TeNaKh is an acronym for all three books. T for Torah, N for Neviim, and K for Ketuvim). 

 

Nebula, I know you know this stuff, but I am repeating it for those who might not have heard these Jewish expressions.

 

That is not true.  Jesus did not say they had studied the scriptures.  

 

Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:  and they are they which testify of me.  John 5:39

 

That is the entire verse.  Nebula's Bible doesn't even really disagree with the KJV Bible, but her translation is easier to misunderstand because of the way it is worded.  Nothing you said can be proven true.  Jesus never indicated that the Pharisees had already studied scriptures and that by doing so thought it would give them eternal life.  It only says that the religious crowd thought they had eternal life because they had Abraham as their Father.  It never says they believed they had eternal life because they studied hard.  If you disagree, I challenge you to prove that is the reason they thought they had eternal life. 

 

Yes, He did. In this case, I would call your interpretation a 'private interpretation', but scripture clearly shows that they search the scripture thinking that in them they had eternal life, but missed that the scripture was speaking of Jesus so refused to come to Him.. They had studied the scripture and missed the Messiah.

 

But, I think your theory is that study of scripture guarantees knowledge of Messiah, so salvation. It sound like you are trying to say, a person can not truly study scripture, and miss Jesus, therefore the Pharisees could not have really studied scripture since they missed Jesus. Which of course isn't true since salvation needs the drawing of God, and the Holy Spirit revealing the truth too. A person can study scripture for their entire lives without the Holy Spirit and miss Jesus. Salvation is a work of God.  

 

It is not my private interpretation.  It is what is written in my KJV Bible, which is what I go by.  No, I am not claiming studying scripture guarantees seeing Jesus in it, but I am saying that Jesus never said the Pharisees had actually studied scripture, and that is the reason they believe they have eternal life.  He said they think they have eternal life because they look to Abraham as their Father.  I am not even interpreting that verse.  I am taking it as written in my Bible.  I am rejecting Nebula's translation because it makes the passage unclear.  I don't even think they meant it like you are taking it, which is why I didn't make a big deal about the KJV verses her version.  It isn't so much that her translation had it wrong.  It is just unclear the way they wrote it. 

 

I will give you a quote from a very famous Pharisee who died in 7 ce.

 

Hillel the elder was the head of a large Rabbinical (Pharisaical) in Jerusalem, and very popular in Jesus day, as well as today.

 

The Pharisees taught the general people, and would often stand at the gates to teach. One day Hillel was standing at the gate and saw some men going to work.

 

"How much," he asked, "will you earn to-day?" One said: "A denarius"; the second: "Two denarii." "What will you do with the money?" he inquired. "We will provide for the necessities of life." Then said he to them: "Would you not rather come and make the Torah your possession, that you may possess both this and the future world?" 

 

This story explains the view of scripture from the Pharisees. Study the Torah and you will possess eternal life (the future world or the world to come are Jewish expressions for the equivalent of eternal life or the Messianic age). This is what Jesus was answering when He said they searched scripture, thinking they will find eternal life.    

 

No, it is not what he was saying, because that is not what the scripture says.  It doesn't say that they studied scripture, and therein think they have eternal life.  He is telling them to search the scriptures because the scriptures will point them to Christ.  You can bring in all the extra-Biblical stuff you want, and it won't change that. 

[Guest Butero]

 

Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:  and they are they which testify of me.  John 5:39

 

I do not understand what you hear with this?

 

Search the Scriptures: = Jesus tells them they need to search the Scriptures - not learn the Scriptures nor read the Scriptures, but search the Scriptures - meaning "look for the witness there."

 

for in them ye think ye have eternal life: = They think they have eternal life in the Scriptures.

 

and they are they which testify of me. = But the Scriptures actually testify of Jesus. Jesus is saying that the evidene of who He is in right there in the Scriptures.

 

 

Of course, I find it very odd to hear anyone claim that the Pharisees did not know the Scriptures.

 

"...[The Pharisees] were concerned that the spiritual life of the people should be centered in the Torah and the Synagogue. While the Sadducean priesthood prided itself upon its aristocracy of blood (Sanh. iv. 2; Mid. v. 4; Ket. 25a; Josephus, "Contra Ap." i., § 7), the Pharisees created an aristocracy of learning instead, declaring a bastard who is a student of the Law to be higher in rank than an ignorant high priest (Hor. 13a), "

 

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12087-pharisees

 

The Pharisees had a basic knowledge of scripture, but it wasn't based on pure knowledge.  It was based on a mixture of scripture plus tradition along with things they were taught about the Bible from extra-Biblical means.  Let me put it to you this way.  There are people that spend all their time in the actual Bible learning from the Holy Spirit.  Then there are people who never actually read the Bible through, or perhaps read it once, but spend all of their time reading books about what is in the Bible.  That becomes their primary belief system.  It becomes based on all the extra-Biblical things they read, not the actual scriptures.  I agree with Shiloh's take, that they didn't really focus primarily on the scriptures themselves. 

 

As for this one verse, my biggest issue here isn't that I am arguing how much the Pharisees studied the Bible.  I have no way of knowing.  I can only speculate.  My biggest problem with that verse is that I know you are taking it out of context to make a point.  It is not saying that they think they have eternal life because they are such great students of the Word.  It just doesn't say that, so I am pointing out that you are taking it out of context.  If you simply want to speculate that the Pharisees surely knew the scriptures, that is one thing, but misusing a verse to supposedly prove it is quite another. 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Quite easily. Remember the Deceiver is very cunning. He can trip up anyone in many ways, including convincing you that your pursuit of theology is a pursuit of God, when you are in fact building your own "kingdom" (your own theology, your own church, your own teaching, your own "unique" relationship with God, etc.)

That makes no sense.  People being devoted to obeying Scripture do not fall into that kind of deception.

 

Yes they do, and yes they have.

I had belonged to a small church which turned out to be a cult. Our leader encouraged us to spend more time in the Bible, and gave many teaching with Scripture reference to back the claims. I had read the Bible through all the way at least 3 times before this, and I was raised learning the Scriptures; so I was no "dummy" on the Word. Yet, there are other ways Satan can deceive your thinking, as I found out the hard way.

I know of others who came out of something similar.

 

I guess the problem is that even Mormons are able to lo make their teachings look biblical.  Anyone can make a claim and find a verse or passage to back up that claim, provided that you are being led to certain way or manner of interpretation that will lead you to the conclusion the cult leader wants you to arrive at.   Satan knows the Bible and can quote it chapter and verse, but He is not "devoted" to it.  Knowing the Bible and studying the Bible are not equal to being devoted to the Scriptures.  In most cases, cults are devoted to a particular approach or agenda and they use the Bible to that end.  There are scholars who have given their lives to career of studying the Bible and can also quote it expertly but dont' believe a word of it.

 

A genuine devotion to Scripture precludes the kind of cult like deception you describe, because it is a devotion that comes from a relationship with God. It is not an intellectual commitment to words on a page. A true devotion to Scripture takes over the whole person, spirit, mind and body and cannot be relegated to a mere intellectual pursuit.

 

 

In fact, we are admonished to stay in the Word of God in order to avoid being decieved.

 

Shiloh, how many debates have you been in on this board with people who are devoted to Scripture yet are way off the mark?

 

 

They are not devoted to the Scriptures but to an agenda, and a particular approach to the Scriptures.  I have met far more people on this board who are devoted to the Word and are not way off the mark.

The enemy isn't trying to make us more devoted to the Scripture in order to get us away from God.  That is self-defeating.

 

No, but all he has to do is trick us into holding to the wrong doctrine, which clouds our reading of the Word to see only what our belief enables us to see.

Consider the WOF teachers.

 

 

Yes and most of the Word of Faith teaching would be nipped in the bud if more people had basic skills in hermeneutics and exegesis.   WoF teachers prey on people's needs and wants and provide Jesus as a useful tool to meet those needs.  There is an emotional manipulation that takes place in those teachings.

 

The Bible is among other things, theology.  You cannot separate prayerful and thoughtful study of the Word of God from theology.   It doesn't work that way.

 

Except that most "theology" is about the knowledge of doctrine and dogma rather than the knowledge of God Himself.

 

 

That isn't true.  Theology IS rooted in the knowledge of God.  The word "theology" means, "the stuy of God."   I will admit that there is stuff out there that passes itself off as theology when it is nothing more than philosophy.

 

But genuine theology is dry, dusty knowledge or doctrine.  Doctrine is all about God, how He works, thinks and speaks.  It is all about knowing God better.  You cannot separate God from doctrine because the Bible is all about the doctrine of God Himself. 

 

Deception stems from less, not more devotion to Scripture.

 

We've both debated Replacement theologians who knew the Scriptures. Are you claiming that if they would just study the Scriptures more than they already are that they would suddenly see the light?

 

 

Again, knowing the Scriptures and being devoted to the Scriptures are not the same thing. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Continued from previous post

 

 

The Christians who are easy pickings for the cults are the ones who less devoted to the Bible, who have a rudimentary understanding of things like the nature of God, plan of redemption, etc.

 

Not exactly. The easy pickings for cults are wounded and insecure people. The difference between a cult and a church or group or ministry or denomination with bad theology is the manipulation and control factor.

Many people who came out of cults can testify that they were never given the freedom to question or challenge what was being taught. More often than not, it was the behavior that made them want to get out, not the bad theology.

Likewise, many people testify that the worst deceptions of the cults were not the doctrine and dogma that were preached, but the image of God they caused people to believe.

I can point out to you a particular cult which feeds people on the Word of God, even promoting a disciplined life of prayer, fasting, and Scripture meditation and memorization (I would have to send this information to you in a PM though - if you would like to check it out for yourself).

Thus, it is possible to know the logos of the Word backwards and forwards and yet miss the Word Himself.

 

Well, first off, my comments were a generally true statement.  I am sure there are exceptions to the rule, but the exceptions to the rule don't negate the rule.  I am sure there are smaller cults that do prey on those who have security issues and other emotional issues.   But in the case of major cults that use the Bible, their deception is rooted in theology.  Former JWs and Mormons have testified to leaving those cults when they discover the truth about their doctrines.  Cults generally do employ some emotional manipulation, but that the is not the way they get most of their converts.  Most of the converts usually come through marriage. 

 

Yes it is possible to know the Bible and miss God altogether, but that doesn't mean that someone is "devoted" to it.

 

 

 

 

I've come across people who are arrogant in their knowledge of Scripture.
 
I've come across people who are so obsessed with "obedience" to Scripture that they miss the greater commands to love, to do justly, to love mercy, to "defend the orphan and the widow."

That is a self-defeating concept.  If that is the case, they are not obsessed with obeying Scripture.

 

 

But they believe they are.

 

You said they were obssessed with obeying Scripture yet were disobedient.  Obviously they don't serve as an adequate example in that they obviously don't obey the Scripture, thus are not obssessed with obeying it.

 

 

I have been under pastors/teachers who could preach and quote Scripture left and right, yet it eventually became apparent they were building an idol rather than pointing to the Cross.

Which again, defeats the argument that devotion to Scripture makes less devoted to God.
 
I think you and I are at odds over what "devotion to the Scriptures" actually entails.

 

 

Then please explain what "devotion to Scripture means to you?

 

 

Being devoted to the Scriptures is a spiritual concept wherein we study the Scriptures, not simply to gain knowledge for knowledge's sake, but to know God better.   The more I learn about God, the more I love Him because each thing I learn about God is another reason to love Him.   Being devoted to the Scripture involves all of the person and allows the Word of God to be a mirror that allows us to see ourselves as God sees us.

 

Being devoted to the Scriptures can't possibly lead you away from God or cause you to miss God because it creates a hunger and thirst for more of Him. Devotion to the Scriptures is rooted in a devotion to God Himself.

[nebula]

Being devoted to the Scriptures is a spiritual concept wherein we study the Scriptures, not simply to gain knowledge for knowledge's sake, but to know God better. 

 

That's the point I read out of the article. He's rebuking those who read and study the Bible for knowledge and doctrine, but not to know God better.