The_Patriot21 Posted March 8, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,709 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 8,524 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted March 8, 2014 animals still feel pain, that is a fact, I may even think they have some semblence of emotion. But as far as souls? no. they don't really have the ability to actively think through and make active decisions regarding their life, they cant accept Jesus they can't choose right from wrong. They just do what their instincts tell them. Sure many animals like dogs can be trained-but on their own, in the wild they would never obey anothers voice-they would only obey the alpha male who could beat them in a fight. They can be trained, but they cant think for themselves-just do what their extincts tell them. They feel pain, they may feel emotions, and remember things, but thats not a soul-a soul is what makes us human, it is what sets us apart from the animals. It is what allows us to become christians. A soul and a "spirit" are one and the same thing. the ability to have emotions and pain doesnt mean they have a soul, it means they can feel sad and pain. Thats all it means. Nowwhere in the Bible does it say that the ability to have emotions and pain means you have a soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted March 8, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted March 8, 2014 animals still feel pain, that is a fact, I may even think they have some semblence of emotion. But as far as souls? no. they don't really have the ability to actively think through and make active decisions regarding their life, they cant accept Jesus they can't choose right from wrong. They just do what their instincts tell them. Sure many animals like dogs can be trained-but on their own, in the wild they would never obey anothers voice-they would only obey the alpha male who could beat them in a fight. They can be trained, but they cant think for themselves-just do what their extincts tell them. They feel pain, they may feel emotions, and remember things, but thats not a soul-a soul is what makes us human, it is what sets us apart from the animals. It is what allows us to become christians. A soul and a "spirit" are one and the same thing. the ability to have emotions and pain doesnt mean they have a soul, it means they can feel sad and pain. Thats all it means. Nowwhere in the Bible does it say that the ability to have emotions and pain means you have a soul. Â I've come to the conclusion that we're probably not even disagreeing here. I think we just have a different definition as to what a soul is. I've never found anywhere in the Bible that gives the exact definition of a soul - it just appears to assume that we already know. I could be wrong but I always think of a soul as being the part of you that is 'you'. The part that can experience joy, love and all sorts of pleasures but can also experience pain, distress, grief and suffering. The soul is independent of body and always exists. When you're alive it's in your body (or rather you are in your body) and when you're dead you (the soul) are no longer in the physical body. Maybe my definition is wrong, but I don't see what else it could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted March 8, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,709 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 8,524 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted March 8, 2014 to me a soul can include all that-but it also includes the ability to reason, to solve problems. the soul is why we can accept Christ into our hearts, and why animals cannot, animals cannot reason. A human can look at a deer, and say I want to go out, and hunt that deer and eat it, but I don't want it to suffer-so a makes the active decision to take a large enough weapon to take it down quickly and practice enough to be proficient with it so as to take the animal down with the least amount of pain. A mountain lion or a wolf on the other hand, sees a deer, thinks "im hungry" and takes it down any way it can, it doesnt care if that animal suffers or not. it just sees food. it makes no active decisions. the thought that that animal might feel pain doesnt even enter that animals mind, the only thing its even capable of thinking about is its own empty stomach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted March 8, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted March 8, 2014 to me a soul can include all that-but it also includes the ability to reason, to solve problems. the soul is why we can accept Christ into our hearts, and why animals cannot, animals cannot reason. A human can look at a deer, and say I want to go out, and hunt that deer and eat it, but I don't want it to suffer-so a makes the active decision to take a large enough weapon to take it down quickly and practice enough to be proficient with it so as to take the animal down with the least amount of pain. A mountain lion or a wolf on the other hand, sees a deer, thinks "im hungry" and takes it down any way it can, it doesnt care if that animal suffers or not. it just sees food. it makes no active decisions. the thought that that animal might feel pain doesnt even enter that animals mind, the only thing its even capable of thinking about is its own empty stomach. Â That is what I would call the spirit, as in body, soul and spirit. Again, I may be wrong but I just assume that's what they mean. Have you heard the saying, "the more intelligent you are, the greater your capacity for suffering?" Let me explain how I see this. When you were a new born baby you were actually the same soul as you are now, but your spirit (personality) hadn't been developed. You were capable of having 'good' feelings, warmth, comfort etc, but you were capable also of experiencing 'bad' feelings - hunger, pain, distress and so on. That is because your brain didn't know anything, nor did it have any memories. A new-born baby can suffer but it doesn't suffer by worrying about whether it will fail its college exams or not, or worrying whether it will get cancer or not. The imagination hasn't developed yet either. As the brain develops and the child gets life experiences the soul can receive more 'good' or bad' stimuli from the brain, therefore the capacity for happiness increases but so does the capacity for suffering. An animal does not have an intelligent enough brain ever to reach this capacity. Animals don't want to suffer but they don't suffer as much as we can. A cow led to the slaughterhouse doesn't think to itself "I don't want to die yet. There are so many ambitions that I haven't fulfilled yet and I'd really like to live to see my calves grow up." Its suffering is reduced to base emotions only - pain, discomfort, stress and so on. Now I'm not saying that our souls are the same. An animal soul is different to a human one and God has special plans for our souls. Animal souls probably perish - after death the soul is destroyed (after which the animal feels nothing) but our souls continue to exist. Animals are not responsible for their actions because their brains are incapable of reasoning in the same way that we are. Their souls die but ours live on, either receiving eternal good stimuli or eternal bad stimuli (suffering). After death the stimuli no longer come from a physical brain but from elsewhere, but the soul still exists connected to the spirit (personality) which contains all our memories and knowledge and our learned ability to reason and think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted March 8, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,709 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 8,524 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I understand where your coming from-I really do, I just hold that a soul and a spirit are one and the same thing-two words describing the same thing. a animal has instincts-a man as a soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted March 8, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I understand where your coming from-I really do, I just hold that a soul and a spirit are one and the same thing-two words describing the same thing. a animal has instincts-a man as a soul. Â I understand. I just don't know the exact definitions. It's just the way I see it. I've always thought that way. I don't think its unscriptural because scripture is vague in that area. By giving separate definitions for soul and spirit it makes a bit more sense to me. When we receive the Holy Spirit we're not receiving a soul, we're receiving a personality with knowledge that can impart wisdom to us and give advice. I guess we don't really understand the exact definitions ourselves but maybe one day we'll find out. By the way, whilst we're on the subject. If you believe like I do that animals have a soul does that mean that every animal suffers? What about insects, is it cruel to swat them or pull their legs off? My answer to that goes back to the phrase "the greater the intelligence, the greater the capacity for suffering". Insects are pretty stupid. Scientists also tell us that they have no pain receptors either. If they do have souls then the brain is probably not capable of generating any bad stimuli to the soul. So an insect probably never really suffers and probably relies entirely on instinct to survive. An insect probably doesn't even feel anything at all when you kill, capture it, squash it or chop it in half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted March 8, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,709 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 8,524 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I dont know the science, it probably depends on whether they have pain sensors or not-I suspect, though I dont know for sure most insects do not have pain nerves which means they don't feel pain. but Im not going to swear to it. I know most of your larger animals such as dogs and even cows do have pain nerves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coheir Posted March 9, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,458 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 729 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1950 Share Posted March 9, 2014 ecc 3 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? psa 49 12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish. jere27 5 I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me. job 12 7 But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:  8. Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. 9. Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? 10. In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. psa 104 29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. hosea 2 18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. isa 11 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 1 cor 15 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. gen 1 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. gen 9 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.  4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. It seems clear God made the earth, animals, and man in different groups and kinds. he also made it where some eat others Gen 1:29 shows one thing and Gen 9:3 a change God made. Its evident he made the change in nature between animals also. ptsd - poorly thinking scientist disillusioned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted March 9, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.88 Content Count: 43,795 Content Per Day: 6.21 Reputation: 11,243 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 9, 2014  ptsd - poorly thinking scientist disillusioned  In the case of cows perhaps so   but as someone who was diagnosed with ptsd following months of waking up screaming from nightmares following an incidence of violence in my family, I find your comment to be rather offensive. Ptsd is not a joke. It is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coheir Posted March 9, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,458 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 729 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1950 Share Posted March 9, 2014   ptsd - poorly thinking scientist disillusioned  In the case of cows perhaps so   but as someone who was diagnosed with ptsd following months of waking up screaming from nightmares following an incidence of violence in my family, I find your comment to be rather offensive. Ptsd is not a joke. It is real.  the coment was meant for the human that said cows have ptsd; if that was not you that said cows have ptsd then it isnt aimed at you.------- i also have ptsd;------ cows dont. you have offended me in the past and i did nt get any sorrys from you so im not sending any your way i have it and wish i didnt and i wish any other HUMAN does not have it or get it. humans saying cows have ptsd is offensive to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts