Stolen Treasures from legalism

[nebula]

As I said, I came to be a Christian as a result of hell, fire and brimstone preaching.  In other words, that minister put the fear of God in me, to the point where I had trouble sleeping at night for fear of missing the rapture or going to hell.  I thank God for that preacher, and others like him.  When I first got saved, I bought a Bible so I could read it and see what God expected of me as a Christian.  I wanted to know his standards.  I read the New Testament first, and then went to Genesis and read straight through to Revelation.  Over the years, I have had my ups and downs and personal struggles with sin, but I never turned my back on God. 

 

All that being said, here is how I would describe things today.  I have a personal relationship to God, and consider him a friend.  I believe he is with me all the time, and I talk to him as a friend throughout the day.  As a normal rule, I don't go around in constant fear of messing up, but, and here is the but, if I make a choice to do something I know is wrong, and simply do it, knowing God is not going to be pleased with it, you better believe I fear what could happen.  I have felt that anger before.  I have seen the consequences of willful sin before.  As long as I am doing my best, and confess my sins when I realize I did something wrong, I have perfect peace.  When I choose to be disobedient, then comes fear until I make it right.  I believe this is a healthy fear, because I do have examples from scripture of what God has done to some people when they have chosen to disobey him. 

 

 

I'm glad God used what would get your attention to bring you to Him.

 

But why stay focused on sin so much?

 

Why spend the majority of your energy focused on what to avoid and how not to live rather than focusing on what to do and how to live?

 

 

It's like when driving, while yes you have your list of "don't"s, but do you not focus more on what the "do"s? can you drive effectively with your attention primarily on the "don't"s?

[Willa]

When we can't accept God's grace, His undeserved favor, for ourselves, we can't extend it to others.

Rather than yielding to God's judgement of merciful forgiveness that has washed us clean when we confessed our sins, some continue to stand in harsh judgement of themselves, causing them to judge others as they have judged themselves.

I left as soon as my mother consented and found a church where the word was preached, salvation by grace through faith was taught, and I was edified. But it took years for me to overcome the loathing I saw in my first pastor's face. I always felt like I was not good enough and thought that God had only given me a second chance to be good enough to go to heaven. I had failed the second chance miserably as well. So I focused on my failings and was filled with self condemnation; as a result I only had condemnation to give to others. I became like that pastor. It is a terrible, bitter pit. But God does rescue us from the pit. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed. Free to extend His grace and love to others.

But first I had to perceive that God loved and accepted me as I am, no strings attached, and that the self righteousness that had filled me was worse than anything I saw in others. So the log was removed from my own eyes. But only God could do this and make me FEEL " to the praise of His glory and GRACE , BY WHICH HE MADE US ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED." Eph. 1:6 God showed me that I had to also forgive that pastor. God then filled me with compassion for him because I know something of his misery.

1 Cor. 10:6 NKJV (referring to Israel in the desert) -10 nor complain--11 Now all these things happened to them as examples and they were written for our admonition,--12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." There is a balance between living in loving grace and the fear of God. We are not allowed to abuse His grace. He is very patient, giving us a lot of time to come to repentance. He gave Israel centuries and many warnings. So the OT and severity of God is given to us as a warning. BUT IT ALSO REVEALS HIS PATIENCE AND LONG SUFFERING.

But as we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. THE WAY OF ESCAPE IS TO FOLLOW AFTER THE GUIDANCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND DO THE WORKS OF CHRIST. WE CAN'T DO THAT BY FOCUSING ON OUR SIN (SELF) OR ON THE SIN OF OTHERS. WE DO IT BY FOCUSING ON CHRIST AND OBEYING HIS SPIRIT.

What you are describing is far beyond legalism.  I have been in very legalistic churches over the years, and never seen anything close to what you described.  It is sad to hear of any church leaders behaving like that, but I hardly consider this typical.  I have had preachers that would come against all kinds of things they believed to be wrong, like gambling, but they would simply preach what they believed in sermons.  They didn't go up to people and ask them questions like that and then show disgust.  Child abuse is something that sadly takes place in all kinds of churches.  I know someone personally who was sexually abused by a deacon in a liberal Baptist church where they preach nothing but grace.  In that church, he could be in good standing because God doesn't judge us by our behavior, so even sexual abuse doesn't make you any less saved.  I don't mean the church would condone it, but they can't judge the guy because to them, sin is sin.

Your are right, Butero, it was not legalism. It was the self righteousness condemnation that so often accompanies legalism. I also became self righteous because I was depending on my own goodness to get me to heaven, and it doesn't work. Back in the 50s the so called legalism consisted of man made rules--don't play cards, don't dance, don't smoke, don't , don't don't. And the people who didn't do the don'ts most often became very self righteous toward those who did these things that aren't even mentioned in the Bible. When I was baptized I was completely unaware of such teachings. In fact, I had no foundation and did not even know of the trinity or that Jesus was God in human flesh, or that there is a Holy Spirit. Our liberal church only taught to repent, confess Jesus as Savior and Lord, be baptized and celebrate communion every Sunday. Oh, read the New Testament. It called itself a New Testament church.

God first brought my attention to 1 Cor. 13 because I needed to understand about His love. Instead I hated, and mostly hated myself for failing to be good enough. I didn't understand God's grace or love for myself or for others. People saw the same kind of loathing in me as my pastor had for me for playing cards. I had begun in the Spirit but I was not grounded and rooted in love. Nor was I focusing on God. I focused on myself and trying to be good. When I focused on others I only saw their hatred, which usually mirrored my own. So I ended up being the wretched man of Romans 7. The good I wanted to do I couldn't do and the evil I didn't want to do I did. IT TOOK ME YEARS TO LEARN HOW ROMANS 8 AND FOCUSING ON GOD SO AS TO WALK IN THE SPIRIT WAS THE WAY OUT OF THE PIT. And after I backslid God brought me back to the same place. He showed me my hatred toward those who were hateful and abusive, and how much I needed His love and compassion in me to be able to love them. It was through Campus Crusade that I learned to walk in the Spirit by hearing God's voice and obeying the things He put upon my heart to do. So I asked God to love others through me. I CANNOT LIVE THE CHRISTIAN LIFE IN MY OWN STRENGTH. IT IS THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT ENABLES ME AND DIRECTS ME.

[Guest Butero]

Here is the thing Willamina.  Being legalistic and believing that God doesn't want you to play cards, drink any alcohol, smoke cigarettes, dress a certain way, work on Sunday, basically anything you can come up with, doesn't automatically cause you to become prideful.  People do those kind of things all the time because they feel it is the right thing to do.  Preachers preach on those things because they believe they are important. 

 

In my experience, I have come across people just as prideful who believed that salvation was 100 percent by faith, and they thought themselves better than the legalists.  I have come across just as many like that as the people you describe.  You can become lifted up in pride simply because you think your way is the right way.  Legalism and pride don't necessarily go hand in hand.  Satan can use anything in your life to make you prideful, and make you look down on others.  Can the standards you hold to make you prideful?  Yes, but so can the fact you don't hold to any standards while other deceived souls do.  You can think yourself better than they are. 

 

To Nebula, it is not that I am focused all day on what not to do.  Everyone goes through days where there will be temptations to do things we shouldn't.  What I am saying is that when faced with those temptations, I can either give in to them and just shrug it off and say that we all are human and sometimes we give in and sometimes we don't, or I can resist them.  I am saying that being aware of God's wrath makes me more likely to resist them because I don't want to suffer the consequences, anymore than a child will want to suffer the consequences of disobeying his or her parents, by grounding or perhaps spanking.  Being aware of that side of God makes us more careful in what we do.  I don't go through the day in constant fear of every little misstep.  Last night, it was like the devil pushed my patience to the limit with every bad driver imaginable, and I lost my temper with things I said.  Of course, I repented, but I wasn't in fear of being struck down for that.  At the same time, if I was faced with an outright temptation where I knew one way was right and another was wrong, and I had time to think about it and choose the course of action, I would be scared to do the wrong.  I would fear the wrath of God. 

[Qnts2]

Here is the thing Willamina.  Being legalistic and believing that God doesn't want you to play cards, drink any alcohol, smoke cigarettes, dress a certain way, work on Sunday, basically anything you can come up with, doesn't automatically cause you to become prideful.  People do those kind of things all the time because they feel it is the right thing to do.  Preachers preach on those things because they believe they are important. 

 

In my experience, I have come across people just as prideful who believed that salvation was 100 percent by faith, and they thought themselves better than the legalists.  I have come across just as many like that as the people you describe.  You can become lifted up in pride simply because you think your way is the right way.  Legalism and pride don't necessarily go hand in hand.  Satan can use anything in your life to make you prideful, and make you look down on others.  Can the standards you hold to make you prideful?  Yes, but so can the fact you don't hold to any standards while other deceived souls do.  You can think yourself better than they are. 

 

To Nebula, it is not that I am focused all day on what not to do.  Everyone goes through days where there will be temptations to do things we shouldn't.  What I am saying is that when faced with those temptations, I can either give in to them and just shrug it off and say that we all are human and sometimes we give in and sometimes we don't, or I can resist them.  I am saying that being aware of God's wrath makes me more likely to resist them because I don't want to suffer the consequences, anymore than a child will want to suffer the consequences of disobeying his or her parents, by grounding or perhaps spanking.  Being aware of that side of God makes us more careful in what we do.  I don't go through the day in constant fear of every little misstep.  Last night, it was like the devil pushed my patience to the limit with every bad driver imaginable, and I lost my temper with things I said.  Of course, I repented, but I wasn't in fear of being struck down for that.  At the same time, if I was faced with an outright temptation where I knew one way was right and another was wrong, and I had time to think about it and choose the course of action, I would be scared to do the wrong.  I would fear the wrath of God. 

 

What do you do with the following verse?

 

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[Guest Butero]

 

Here is the thing Willamina.  Being legalistic and believing that God doesn't want you to play cards, drink any alcohol, smoke cigarettes, dress a certain way, work on Sunday, basically anything you can come up with, doesn't automatically cause you to become prideful.  People do those kind of things all the time because they feel it is the right thing to do.  Preachers preach on those things because they believe they are important. 

 

In my experience, I have come across people just as prideful who believed that salvation was 100 percent by faith, and they thought themselves better than the legalists.  I have come across just as many like that as the people you describe.  You can become lifted up in pride simply because you think your way is the right way.  Legalism and pride don't necessarily go hand in hand.  Satan can use anything in your life to make you prideful, and make you look down on others.  Can the standards you hold to make you prideful?  Yes, but so can the fact you don't hold to any standards while other deceived souls do.  You can think yourself better than they are. 

 

To Nebula, it is not that I am focused all day on what not to do.  Everyone goes through days where there will be temptations to do things we shouldn't.  What I am saying is that when faced with those temptations, I can either give in to them and just shrug it off and say that we all are human and sometimes we give in and sometimes we don't, or I can resist them.  I am saying that being aware of God's wrath makes me more likely to resist them because I don't want to suffer the consequences, anymore than a child will want to suffer the consequences of disobeying his or her parents, by grounding or perhaps spanking.  Being aware of that side of God makes us more careful in what we do.  I don't go through the day in constant fear of every little misstep.  Last night, it was like the devil pushed my patience to the limit with every bad driver imaginable, and I lost my temper with things I said.  Of course, I repented, but I wasn't in fear of being struck down for that.  At the same time, if I was faced with an outright temptation where I knew one way was right and another was wrong, and I had time to think about it and choose the course of action, I would be scared to do the wrong.  I would fear the wrath of God. 

 

What do you do with the following verse?

 

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

 

First of all, I reject the translation you used, and turn to my KJV Bible.  It doesn't say the same thing. 

 

1 John 4:18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath torment:  He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 

 

Notice the difference.  Your translation says "because fear involves punishment," and mine says, "because fear hath torment."  I know yours can't be right, because I can give examples of punishment for disobedience.  The key is "perfect love."  If I love God and am truly in a right relationship with him, I have no fear.  I am walking with God in my daily life, and I am not afraid of anything.  I am not fearful right now.  On the other hand, if I choose to cheat on my wife tonight, or in anger, kill a man, I am not walking in perfect love.  Fear enters the picture. 

[Guest Butero]

Here is an interesting passage for you.  I actually preached a message once from this passage and titled it "Be ye holy." 

 

Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober; and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 

As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy,

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear.  1 Peter 1:13-17

[Qnts2]

 

 

Here is the thing Willamina.  Being legalistic and believing that God doesn't want you to play cards, drink any alcohol, smoke cigarettes, dress a certain way, work on Sunday, basically anything you can come up with, doesn't automatically cause you to become prideful.  People do those kind of things all the time because they feel it is the right thing to do.  Preachers preach on those things because they believe they are important. 

 

In my experience, I have come across people just as prideful who believed that salvation was 100 percent by faith, and they thought themselves better than the legalists.  I have come across just as many like that as the people you describe.  You can become lifted up in pride simply because you think your way is the right way.  Legalism and pride don't necessarily go hand in hand.  Satan can use anything in your life to make you prideful, and make you look down on others.  Can the standards you hold to make you prideful?  Yes, but so can the fact you don't hold to any standards while other deceived souls do.  You can think yourself better than they are. 

 

To Nebula, it is not that I am focused all day on what not to do.  Everyone goes through days where there will be temptations to do things we shouldn't.  What I am saying is that when faced with those temptations, I can either give in to them and just shrug it off and say that we all are human and sometimes we give in and sometimes we don't, or I can resist them.  I am saying that being aware of God's wrath makes me more likely to resist them because I don't want to suffer the consequences, anymore than a child will want to suffer the consequences of disobeying his or her parents, by grounding or perhaps spanking.  Being aware of that side of God makes us more careful in what we do.  I don't go through the day in constant fear of every little misstep.  Last night, it was like the devil pushed my patience to the limit with every bad driver imaginable, and I lost my temper with things I said.  Of course, I repented, but I wasn't in fear of being struck down for that.  At the same time, if I was faced with an outright temptation where I knew one way was right and another was wrong, and I had time to think about it and choose the course of action, I would be scared to do the wrong.  I would fear the wrath of God. 

 

What do you do with the following verse?

 

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

 

First of all, I reject the translation you used, and turn to my KJV Bible.  It doesn't say the same thing. 

 

1 John 4:18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath torment:  He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 

 

Notice the difference.  Your translation says "because fear involves punishment," and mine says, "because fear hath torment."  I know yours can't be right, because I can give examples of punishment for disobedience.  The key is "perfect love."  If I love God and am truly in a right relationship with him, I have no fear.  I am walking with God in my daily life, and I am not afraid of anything.  I am not fearful right now.  On the other hand, if I choose to cheat on my wife tonight, or in anger, kill a man, I am not walking in perfect love.  Fear enters the picture. 

 

 

From Strongs concordance

 

Lexicon :: Strong's G2851 - kolasis

κόλασις

Transliteration

kolasis

Pronunciation

ko'-lä-sēs (Key)

Part of Speech

feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

From κολάζω (G2849)

Dictionary Aids

Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 3:816,451

Trench's Synonyms: vii. τιμωρία, κόλασις.

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. correction, punishment, penalty

 

Kolasis is used twice in the NT.  In the KJV, :

The KJV translates Strongs G2851 in the following manner: punishment (1x), torment (1x).

 

 

So, I will stand by the verse as I quoted it. Clearly, punishment is a proper and acceptable translation of the Greek word.

 

A child who does something terribly wrong, worries about their parents reactions and might feel shame, but if they have been raised in love, they do not fear rejection. Why, because perfect love castes out fear. If a child has been raise by the law and punishment,  they were not raised in love, and will fear.  This idea is repeated in the OT and the NT. While children of God are trained, they are not in fear of punishment/torment, because they are trained in love.

 

  Hebrews 12:5-11 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

Here is the thing Willamina.  Being legalistic and believing that God doesn't want you to play cards, drink any alcohol, smoke cigarettes, dress a certain way, work on Sunday, basically anything you can come up with, doesn't automatically cause you to become prideful.  People do those kind of things all the time because they feel it is the right thing to do.  Preachers preach on those things because they believe they are important. 

 

In my experience, I have come across people just as prideful who believed that salvation was 100 percent by faith, and they thought themselves better than the legalists.  I have come across just as many like that as the people you describe.  You can become lifted up in pride simply because you think your way is the right way.  Legalism and pride don't necessarily go hand in hand.  Satan can use anything in your life to make you prideful, and make you look down on others.  Can the standards you hold to make you prideful?  Yes, but so can the fact you don't hold to any standards while other deceived souls do.  You can think yourself better than they are. 

 

To Nebula, it is not that I am focused all day on what not to do.  Everyone goes through days where there will be temptations to do things we shouldn't.  What I am saying is that when faced with those temptations, I can either give in to them and just shrug it off and say that we all are human and sometimes we give in and sometimes we don't, or I can resist them.  I am saying that being aware of God's wrath makes me more likely to resist them because I don't want to suffer the consequences, anymore than a child will want to suffer the consequences of disobeying his or her parents, by grounding or perhaps spanking.  Being aware of that side of God makes us more careful in what we do.  I don't go through the day in constant fear of every little misstep.  Last night, it was like the devil pushed my patience to the limit with every bad driver imaginable, and I lost my temper with things I said.  Of course, I repented, but I wasn't in fear of being struck down for that.  At the same time, if I was faced with an outright temptation where I knew one way was right and another was wrong, and I had time to think about it and choose the course of action, I would be scared to do the wrong.  I would fear the wrath of God. 

 

What do you do with the following verse?

 

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

 

First of all, I reject the translation you used, and turn to my KJV Bible.  It doesn't say the same thing. 

 

1 John 4:18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath torment:  He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 

 

Notice the difference.  Your translation says "because fear involves punishment," and mine says, "because fear hath torment."  I know yours can't be right, because I can give examples of punishment for disobedience.  The key is "perfect love."  If I love God and am truly in a right relationship with him, I have no fear.  I am walking with God in my daily life, and I am not afraid of anything.  I am not fearful right now.  On the other hand, if I choose to cheat on my wife tonight, or in anger, kill a man, I am not walking in perfect love.  Fear enters the picture. 

 

 

From Strongs concordance

 

Lexicon :: Strong's G2851 - kolasis

κόλασις

Transliteration

kolasis

Pronunciation

ko'-lä-sēs (Key)

Part of Speech

feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

From κολάζω (G2849)

Dictionary Aids

Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 3:816,451

Trench's Synonyms: vii. τιμωρία, κόλασις.

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. correction, punishment, penalty

 

Kolasis is used twice in the NT.  In the KJV, :

The KJV translates Strongs G2851 in the following manner: punishment (1x), torment (1x).

 

 

So, I will stand by the verse as I quoted it. Clearly, punishment is a proper and acceptable translation of the Greek word.

 

A child who does something terribly wrong, worries about their parents reactions and might feel shame, but if they have been raised in love, they do not fear rejection. Why, because perfect love castes out fear. If a child has been raise by the law and punishment,  they were not raised in love, and will fear.  This idea is repeated in the OT and the NT. While children of God are trained, they are not in fear of punishment/torment, because they are trained in love.

 

  Hebrews 12:5-11 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

 

You asked me what I do with that verse.  You can stand on your translation all day, but I only accept the KJV Bible, and so my answer to you is, I throw your translation out the window.  I don't accept it.  I dismiss it.  You can believe and use whatever you want, but I dismiss it because of the translation.  If you want me to consider a verse of scripture, it must be what is stated in the KJV Bible.  If I see they don't agree, I reject it.   

 

That is an interesting choice of passages you used from Hebrews.  Why would God chastise someone?  What exactly does chastisement mean?  It is punishment, so if your translation were correct, it contradicts this passage.  Why do you discipline your children?  So they won't do wrong.  They will fear punishment.  I stated I fear God's punishment and you didn't seem to like that, so what do you do?  You give me a scripture that states God punishes his children when they disobey him.  How am I supposed to react to his chastisement or punishment?  Am I supposed to shrug it off, or learn from it, realizing my sins have consequences?  If I don't want punishment, I shouldn't sin. 

 

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:  Fear God, and keep his commandments:  for this is the whole duty of man.  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.  Ecclesiastes 12:13,14

 

BTW, what do you say to Ananias and Saphira?  They come across to me as children that didn't have proper fear of God. 

[nebula]

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath torment:  He that feareth is not made perfect in love."

 

Either way, are you living your life based on fear or based on love?

 

 

2 Corinthians 5

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge , that if one died for all, then were all dead : 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again . 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away ; behold , all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

 

When faced with bad drivers, what if your focus was, "Lord, because You love me, and because You love them, fill me with Your love for them that Your love reign in me!" rather than, "Lord, the devil is tempting me to sin against You; save me from Your wrath,"?

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

 

 

What do you do with the following verse?

 

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

 

First of all, I reject the translation you used, and turn to my KJV Bible.  It doesn't say the same thing. 

 

1 John 4:18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath torment:  He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 

 

Notice the difference.  Your translation says "because fear involves punishment," and mine says, "because fear hath torment."  I know yours can't be right, because I can give examples of punishment for disobedience.  The key is "perfect love."  If I love God and am truly in a right relationship with him, I have no fear.  I am walking with God in my daily life, and I am not afraid of anything.  I am not fearful right now.  On the other hand, if I choose to cheat on my wife tonight, or in anger, kill a man, I am not walking in perfect love.  Fear enters the picture. 

 

 

From Strongs concordance

 

Lexicon :: Strong's G2851 - kolasis

κόλασις

Transliteration

kolasis

Pronunciation

ko'-lä-sēs (Key)

Part of Speech

feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

From κολάζω (G2849)

Dictionary Aids

Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 3:816,451

Trench's Synonyms: vii. τιμωρία, κόλασις.

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. correction, punishment, penalty

 

Kolasis is used twice in the NT.  In the KJV, :

The KJV translates Strongs G2851 in the following manner: punishment (1x), torment (1x).

 

 

So, I will stand by the verse as I quoted it. Clearly, punishment is a proper and acceptable translation of the Greek word.

 

A child who does something terribly wrong, worries about their parents reactions and might feel shame, but if they have been raised in love, they do not fear rejection. Why, because perfect love castes out fear. If a child has been raise by the law and punishment,  they were not raised in love, and will fear.  This idea is repeated in the OT and the NT. While children of God are trained, they are not in fear of punishment/torment, because they are trained in love.

 

  Hebrews 12:5-11 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

 

You asked me what I do with that verse.  You can stand on your translation all day, but I only accept the KJV Bible, and so my answer to you is, I throw your translation out the window.  I don't accept it.  I dismiss it.  You can believe and use whatever you want, but I dismiss it because of the translation.  If you want me to consider a verse of scripture, it must be what is stated in the KJV Bible.  If I see they don't agree, I reject it.   

 

That is an interesting choice of passages you used from Hebrews.  Why would God chastise someone?  What exactly does chastisement mean?  It is punishment, so if your translation were correct, it contradicts this passage.  Why do you discipline your children?  So they won't do wrong.  They will fear punishment.  I stated I fear God's punishment and you didn't seem to like that, so what do you do?  You give me a scripture that states God punishes his children when they disobey him.  How am I supposed to react to his chastisement or punishment?  Am I supposed to shrug it off, or learn from it, realizing my sins have consequences?  If I don't want punishment, I shouldn't sin. 

 

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:  Fear God, and keep his commandments:  for this is the whole duty of man.  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.  Ecclesiastes 12:13,14

 

BTW, what do you say to Ananias and Saphira?  They come across to me as children that didn't have proper fear of God. 

 

I'll start with you questions first.

 

When a Father who loves His children chastizes, it is for the purpose of correcting and teaching, not as judgement and condemning. It is a blessing to help one grow into the person they should be. There is no fear, but rather the recognition of a Father who is there to help. Uncomfortable yes, but the love bond operates.

 

Scripture tells us about Ananias and Saphira. They were liars and lied to the Holy Spirit. They were not chastized as children of God, but instead condemned. Did they not fear the Lord? True, but those who are lost often do not fear God.

 

Now a question for you for clarification. There are several differing views among KJV onliests. Where do you fit?

 

1.KJV is the best translation

2. The Textus Receptus is the preserved word of God

3. The KJV translators were inspired by God during the translation, equal to the original manuscripts in the original languages

4. The KJV is inspired and revealed and corrects all other original manuscripts in the original languages