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Four Antilegalistic Strategies?


GoldenEagle

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The hard part for me has been recognizing that which is legalistic bondage and that which is not the Truth.

 

I appreciated the which helped clarify some key points in regards to that.

 

Swindoll's advice is good for someone who is either of strong character to begin with or someone who has gone through several processes of healing to where they can understand and accept the bondages and  lies for what they are.

 

Those are my thoughts.

That was Chuck Swindoll?  I never did like his teachings.  I listened to this "Route 66" series he did, and he is very confused.  He was teaching that it was a Christian freedom to drink alcohol.  How did Jesus come to set us free so we could drink in moderation, when there was never anything in the law of Moses or anywhere that ever prohibited us from drinking in moderation in the first place?  How could Jesus die to set us free to drink alcohol, when sinners do it all the time.  Jesus came to set us free from the bondages of sin, not so we can do things.  I challenge anyone to listen to what Chuck Swindoll teaches.  You can find him on radio stations in nearly every market.  Ask yourself why Jesus would come and die on a cross to give me freedom to do anything really, when I was perfectly free to do those things as a sinner?  What I needed freedom from was sinful habits.  That is where the blood of Jesus comes in. 

 

Butero... The reason Chuck Swindoll teaches brother that it is okay to drink alcohol (in modreation) is because some would claim that it is a sin to drink any form of alcohol period. I think though you're majoring (focusing) on minors (less important subjects) here regarding CS's teachings.

Nebula... Thanks for sharing that link I'll check it out. :thumbsup:

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I like it! I live in a very legalistic area, and am strong in freedom and grace, but this is helpful, also to share with others not so strong yet

Glad it helps brother! :thumbsup:

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Guest Butero

I can't speak for everyone who would be labeled a legalist,  but having been part of churches that would be considered legalistic, I think I have some understanding of how they look at things.  Legalists don't care about going outside of their group and bringing people into their belief system at gun point.  They simply believe, practice and preach what they believe, and it is up to the hearer to accept or reject it.  As such, they have the ability to do all the things Chuck Swindoll says they should do if they don't want to be part of a legalistic church. 

 

BTW, I know there are churches that teach drinking alcohol at all is a sin.  They will continue to preach that, but Jesus didn't come and die on a cross so people could be freed up to drink in moderation as Chuck Swindoll teaches.  Anyone can drink in moderation, or excess for that matter on their own, as sinners do all the time. 

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Guest Butero

 

2.  Stop seeking the favor of everyone.  That kind of cuts both ways.  As a matter of fact, you will find more people who love you and accept you if you are against legalism than for it.  I would suggest that those who are legalistic listen to his advise very carefully.  Don't listen to those who will claim you are alienating others by being legalistic.  Stand for what you believe in.

 

Legalism is a system of condemnation and comparison. It sets us up to put others down. If I can’t ever be good enough, I can at least be better than you. We learned to judge and condemn others, rather than to understand them. We learned to compare ourselves with them, rather than to listen and care. We learned to keep them at a distance just in case, rather than to love them. In legalism, we learned to mistrust God, others, and ourselves. But the Lord gave us each other for good. We learn love from each other and others give us an outlet for our love. Relationships are good. Yes, they can be difficult, but they are meant to teach us about ourselves and how to trust God. The message from the beginning, according to John (1 Jn 3:11) was that we should love one another. But legalism pushes us away from each other.

 

from Stolen Treasures

 

The Bible actually addresses the practice of measuring ourselves by others.  It is not wise.  We should measure ourselves by the mirror of God's Word.  I have never thought I could compare myself to others and think that if I am doing better than they are, I am ok.  It doesn't work that way.  I just believe in a careful examination of scripture, and trying to follow it to the best of my ability.  If others choose to do the same or if they don't care at all how they live, it has no effect on me.  If legalism to you is comparing ones self to others, and that is all it is, I am with you that legalism is bad.  When I speak of legalism, I speak of seeking to follow scripture, as close to the letter as possible. 

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... yet you and others on these forums embrace a latter day Galatianism called Lordship Salvation.

 

Give it up, dude! Debate in the proper thread and quit trying to beat the same drum everywhere. The Jesus saved people believe in is THE LORD. That is the only point I was trying to support in all of that, I am not preaching circumcision and adherance to the ceremonial laws for salvation, so I would appreciate you drop the ":Galatianism" label in your angst and willful ignorance. THANK YOU!!!!  

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2.  Stop seeking the favor of everyone.  That kind of cuts both ways.  As a matter of fact, you will find more people who love you and accept you if you are against legalism than for it.  I would suggest that those who are legalistic listen to his advise very carefully.  Don't listen to those who will claim you are alienating others by being legalistic.  Stand for what you believe in.

 

Legalism is a system of condemnation and comparison. It sets us up to put others down. If I can’t ever be good enough, I can at least be better than you. We learned to judge and condemn others, rather than to understand them. We learned to compare ourselves with them, rather than to listen and care. We learned to keep them at a distance just in case, rather than to love them. In legalism, we learned to mistrust God, others, and ourselves. But the Lord gave us each other for good. We learn love from each other and others give us an outlet for our love. Relationships are good. Yes, they can be difficult, but they are meant to teach us about ourselves and how to trust God. The message from the beginning, according to John (1 Jn 3:11) was that we should love one another. But legalism pushes us away from each other.

 

from Stolen Treasures

 

The Bible actually addresses the practice of measuring ourselves by others.  It is not wise.  We should measure ourselves by the mirror of God's Word.  I have never thought I could compare myself to others and think that if I am doing better than they are, I am ok.  It doesn't work that way.  I just believe in a careful examination of scripture, and trying to follow it to the best of my ability.  If others choose to do the same or if they don't care at all how they live, it has no effect on me.  If legalism to you is comparing ones self to others, and that is all it is, I am with you that legalism is bad.  When I speak of legalism, I speak of seeking to follow scripture, as close to the letter as possible. 

You can't have it both ways, Butero. You also condone and even applaud oppressive and forceful leadership tactics, which is certainly a "Lording over" others of which Christ said "should not be so among you" but leaders should have a servant's heart. Oppressing others comes from a pride and superiority position that comes exactly from comparing yourself to others and finding yourself to be worthy of lording over them in your supposed correctness. I have no problem with a person living by the dictates of their own conscience, no matter how weak and ridiculously flawed it may be in immaturity and ignorance of truth. The problem is when those of weak conscience decide they must lord over the consciences of others and try to force their questionable practices upon others. I am not talking about things that are clearly delineated in Holy Writ, but the kind those things that are nowhere set forth or improperly interpreted to be so. Some of these areas will always be controversial, hence we debate them here. Yet in all of that, love and deference are our guidelines, not controlling and lording it over one another. I have told you in PM's that I admire your passion for personal purity and love of the Word. I will never, however, agree with your excuses for supporting overbearing, lording over leadership style. It isn't Christlike, nor according to His instructions, period.

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Guest Butero

 

 

 

2.  Stop seeking the favor of everyone.  That kind of cuts both ways.  As a matter of fact, you will find more people who love you and accept you if you are against legalism than for it.  I would suggest that those who are legalistic listen to his advise very carefully.  Don't listen to those who will claim you are alienating others by being legalistic.  Stand for what you believe in.

 

Legalism is a system of condemnation and comparison. It sets us up to put others down. If I can’t ever be good enough, I can at least be better than you. We learned to judge and condemn others, rather than to understand them. We learned to compare ourselves with them, rather than to listen and care. We learned to keep them at a distance just in case, rather than to love them. In legalism, we learned to mistrust God, others, and ourselves. But the Lord gave us each other for good. We learn love from each other and others give us an outlet for our love. Relationships are good. Yes, they can be difficult, but they are meant to teach us about ourselves and how to trust God. The message from the beginning, according to John (1 Jn 3:11) was that we should love one another. But legalism pushes us away from each other.

 

from Stolen Treasures

 

The Bible actually addresses the practice of measuring ourselves by others.  It is not wise.  We should measure ourselves by the mirror of God's Word.  I have never thought I could compare myself to others and think that if I am doing better than they are, I am ok.  It doesn't work that way.  I just believe in a careful examination of scripture, and trying to follow it to the best of my ability.  If others choose to do the same or if they don't care at all how they live, it has no effect on me.  If legalism to you is comparing ones self to others, and that is all it is, I am with you that legalism is bad.  When I speak of legalism, I speak of seeking to follow scripture, as close to the letter as possible. 

You can't have it both ways, Butero. You also condone and even applaud oppressive and forceful leadership tactics, which is certainly a "Lording over" others of which Christ said "should not be so among you" but leaders should have a servant's heart. Oppressing others comes from a pride and superiority position that comes exactly from comparing yourself to others and finding yourself to be worthy of lording over them in your supposed correctness. I have no problem with a person living by the dictates of their own conscience, no matter how weak and ridiculously flawed it may be in immaturity and ignorance of truth. The problem is when those of weak conscience decide they must lord over the consciences of others and try to force their questionable practices upon others. I am not talking about things that are clearly delineated in Holy Writ, but the kind those things that are nowhere set forth or improperly interpreted to be so. Some of these areas will always be controversial, hence we debate them here. Yet in all of that, love and deference are our guidelines, not controlling and lording it over one another. I have told you in PM's that I admire your passion for personal purity and love of the Word. I will never, however, agree with your excuses for supporting overbearing, lording over leadership style. It isn't Christlike, nor according to His instructions, period.

 

You can be a legalist and an oppressive leader and not be full of pride.  Claiming I can't have it both ways is judgmental, because that comment is assuming pride as a motivating factor, rather than trying to live by scripture and save others from hell.  Look at some of your other comments that are also judgmental.  You are automatically looking at the convictions of others as "weak, ridiculously flawed, a product of immaturity and ignorance of truth.  It is possible for you to be full of pride in thinking yourself superior because you consider yourself more mature than others. 

 

What is often labeled as legalism is nothing more than applying scripture to specific things people are doing.  For instance, there is a scripture in Leviticus about not printing marks on your body that can be applied to tattoos.  Who are you to claim it can't be applied in that manner, and that you are right?  There is a scripture in Deuteronomy 22:5 that can be applied to the clothes women wear today.  Who are you to say that is a wrong application?  There is a scripture about not defiling your temple that some use to speak out against tobacco products.  Who are you to claim they are wrong?  Don't get me wrong.  You are certainly entitled to take any position you wish, but so is everyone else, and I sense an air of superiority on your part when you come against people who will take "controversial" positions you don't happen to agree with.  Romans makes it clear that when  person abstains from something they consider unclean, they do so as unto the Lord, and you are just as wrong to come against them as they are wrong to condemn you to hell for doing things they don't agree with. 

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I agree that one can be prideful in a false perception of maturity or knowledge. I also admit to some frustration in dealing with this subject, which is coming out in my posts. I repent.

My only question at this point is to explain what it means, then, to "lord it over" another, and how a leader can be controlling and manipulative while serving in a Christlike attitude that puts the other first in agape love.

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Blessings Golden Eagle

      I like the four points made,it is good & I give God the Glory....thank you for sharing this with us all!I know nothing about Chuck Swindoll,nothing about anything else he has written & what you posted I do not think has anything to do with him ,,,,its about our liberty in Christ Jesus.

       I think I am at an advantage not knowing anything about Mr Swindoll because I have no presuppositions & can just read the OP for what it says...there is nothing in it about drinking alcohol,nothing about what we can or cannot do by works or effort of our own .....it is four simple reminders of standing on our position of Victory that is afforded us through & by our Lord & Savior.....Praise Jesus!

       Old School,what are you even talking about Brother?And just the statement"you & others",,,,tsk,tsk-are "we" not One Body with Christ as our Head.......don't you think it would be better to reason "together" than to divide & separate? We are all united by faith in Christ,God help us to be effective as One in Christ....

                                                                                                    With love-in Christ,Kwik

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This is great! What do you think?

Summary:

  1. Keep standing firm in your freedom.
  2. Stop seeking the favor of everyone.
  3. Start refusing to submit to bondage.
  4. Continue being straightforward about the truth.

 

Four Antilegalistic Strategies

by Charles R. Swindoll

 

So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law. (Galatians 5:1 NLT)

 

Grace killers cannot be mildly ignored or kindly tolerated. You can no more allow legalism to continue than you could permit a rattlesnake to slip into your house and hide. Before long, somebody is going to get hurt. So then, since liberty is worth fighting for, how do we do it? Where can our personal grace awakening begin? I can think of four strong strategies:

 

Keep standing firm in your freedom.

I'm reminded of what Paul wrote in Galatians 5:1: "It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery." Stand your ground. Ask the Lord to give you courage.

Stop seeking the favor of everyone.

This may be a stubborn habit to break, but it is really worth all the effort you can muster. If you're in a group where you feel you are being coerced to do certain things that are against your conscience or you're being pressured to stop doing things that you see no problem with, get out of the group! You're unwise to stay in situations where your conscience tells you it is not right. That is nothing more than serving men, not God. I don't care how spiritual sounding it may be. Stop seeking the favor of everybody.

Start refusing to submit to bondage.

Call it what it is: slavery. It's trying to be "spiritual" by performance. Think of how delightful it would be to get rid of all the anxiety that comes with the bondage to which you have submitted yourself; think how clean you could feel by being real again, or perhaps real for the first time in your adult life.

Continue being straightforward about the truth.

That means live honestly. If you don't agree, say so kindly but firmly. If you are the only one, be true to yourself and stand alone. When you blow it, say, "I blew it." If you don't know, admit the truth. It's okay not to know. And the next time your kids spot hypocrisy, even though you may feel embarrassed, agree with them, "You know what, kids? You're right. I was a first-class hypocrite. What you saw and pointed out is exactly right." Tell them that. It may sound embarrassing to you now, but they will admire and respect your admission. And they won't grow up damaged. Best of all, they will learn to model the same kind of vulnerability and honesty, even if you are in vocational Christian work . . . especially if you're in vocational Christian work. Nobody expects perfection, but they do and they should expect honesty.

 

We need affirmation and encouragement to be all we're meant to be, and because so many are rather delicate within, they need those who are strong to assist them in their fight for liberty. And so, if for no other reason, liberty is worth fighting for so others can breathe freely.

 

If fighting for liberty sounds too aggressive to you, perhaps too selfish, then think of it as fighting so others can be set free—so others can be awakened to the joys and privileges of personal freedom. Those who do that on real battlefields are called patriots or heroes. With all my heart, I believe those who square off against legalism should be considered the same.

 

link: http://www.insight.org/resources/articles/grace/four-antilegalistic.html?t=grace

 

As an individual, there is really nothing making you submit to anyone.  If you choose to do so, you are acting of your own accord.  If I choose to join a church that is very controlling or legalistic, I did so by my own choice.  I can just as easily choose to leave that church.  As I read this post, I have come to the same conclusion I usually do when I hear people complain about legalism.  Who was ever really making you submit? 

 

Lets look at these points one by one. 

 

1.  Keep standing firm in your freedom.  That is kind of your choice isn't it, and wasn't it all along?  I can also say to those who are legalistic, "Keep standing firm for your convictions."  If you believe something is sinful, don't do it, even if you are made fun of and called a legalist.  I know I won't back down.

 

 

Keep standing firm in your freedom.  That is kind of your choice isn't it, and wasn't it all along?  I can also say to those who are legalistic, "Keep standing firm for your convictions."  If you believe something is sinful, don't do it, even if you are made fun of and called a legalist.  I know I won't back down.

 

And there you have it! 

 

I choose freedom!

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