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Four Antilegalistic Strategies?


GoldenEagle

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Guest Butero
explain what it means then to Lord it over another?

 

I would think it means a person has no choice but to submit.  There were always people in positions of authority in the church, even back to the early church.  Paul had a lot of authority when it came to the various churches.  You can see that in his letters.  Was he lording over them for exercising that authority?  When he told the church at Corinth to turn someone over to Satan, was he lording over the church?  Does a Bishop have any authority to make decisions in a church, and if not, what is his position for?  Like it or not, authorities do exist in the church and are necessary.  In reality, there is nothing that makes me submit to a church leader.  I can always choose to voluntarily leave. 

 

I think the question here is over whether or not church leaders have the right to tell people that if they do certain things, they can be expelled or punished.  We know that is perfectly acceptable based on how Paul handled things in the church at Corinth.  We can debate whether or not this only applies to things that are considered wrong by the church as a whole, but there is no clear line.  For one church, a woman wearing pants is sinful.  I mean, right now, if I man were to go into nearly any church wearing a dress, he would be put out, even though everyone once wore robes.  Who is to say the church would be wrong?  In another church, you might get put out for smoking.  They may call that defiling your temple.  Who is to say the church has no authority to do that?  Once Paul showed it was ok to put someone out for sin, that was it.  Individual churches have to decide their own line in the sand.  One churches line may be different from another.  In the Amish community, they might find individual Bible studies an open door for Satan to come in and pervert true doctrine.  I don't feel that way, but they may? 

 

It is hard to clearly define what would constitute lording over someone, especially when I can see people exercising authority in the New Testament church.  When I get time later, I may examine the entire passage more carefully, including all the Greek words to see if I can get some more insight, but as of right now, I don't see how you can make a clear case that being controlling automatically makes one guilty of lording over God's people.  You might as well have no church authorities and have anarchy, because anyone could be accused of this violation of scripture.  I could make this accusation of nearly any Pastor in any church.  You could even claim the leaders at wb are lording over God's people.  Where do you draw the line? 

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Guest Butero

To Fez.  By all means, continue to stand in freedom.  I plan to remain free too, and walk in the liberty whereby I am able to abstain from sinful lusts that once held me bound. 

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... yet you and others on these forums embrace a latter day Galatianism called Lordship Salvation.

Give it up, dude! Debate in the proper thread and quit trying to beat the same drum everywhere. The Jesus saved people believe in is THE LORD. That is the only point I was trying to support in all of that, I am not preaching circumcision and adherance to the ceremonial laws for salvation, so I would appreciate you drop the ":Galatianism" label in your angst and willful ignorance. THANK YOU!!!!

 

Only circumcision and ceremonial laws?

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" ... Galatians 1:8.

"The Bible teaches salvation by grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8, 9 says, 'For by grace ye are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.' But those who teach Lordship salvation say that is not enough to trust Jesus Christ; you must also make Him Lord of your life in order to be saved. This kind of teaching frustrates the grace of God and is called in the Bible 'another gospel.'"

http://www.dividedbytruth.org/BTP/lssapotg/lssapotg_main.htm

"Perhaps the greatest error in the Lordship Salvation view is the apparent call to discipleship for those who are yet unsaved. If one must believe the Gospel, have faith, and make Christ Lord in order to be saved, this is a condition that must be met by someone who does not yet know what the Lordship of Christ means. This results in a Catch 22 which inevitably leads to eternal death. You must make Christ Lord in order to be saved, but you must first be saved in order to make Christ Lord ..."

In short, Lordship Salvation insists upon sanctification as a prerequisite for salvation.

"The Wycliffe Bible Dictionary seems to understand what Lordship Salvation advocates do not; 'While transformation of life is not the ground for salvation, it is the evidence of salvation ..."

http://www.dtl.org/salvation/article/guest/lordship-1.htm

You can't have one foot in Grace and the other in a works-righteousness plan of salvation. Lordship's Salvation's COP: Commitment, Obedience and Perseverance, no matter how noble, are all works of the law, and if we could be justified by them, then Christ has died in vain (Gal. 1:21).

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I like it! I live in a very legalistic area, and am strong in freedom and grace ...

... yet you and others on these forums embrace a latter day Galatianism called Lordship Salvation.

 

For the readers who may not know, will you expound on what you mean by "Lordship Salvation"?

 

 

It's not what I mean by "Lordship Salvation"; see the above excerpts and links.

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I like it! I live in a very legalistic area, and am strong in freedom and grace ...

... yet you and others on these forums embrace a latter day Galatianism called Lordship Salvation.

For the readers who may not know, will you expound on what you mean by "Lordship Salvation"?

 

It's not what I mean by "Lordship Salvation"; see the above excerpts and links.

I was hoping you could give us your version since you wrote this. I could read the same thing and come out with a different understanding as you.

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What is often labeled as legalism is nothing more than applying scripture to specific things people are doing.  For instance, there is a scripture in Leviticus about not printing marks on your body that can be applied to tattoos.  Who are you to claim it can't be applied in that manner, and that you are right?  There is a scripture in Deuteronomy 22:5 that can be applied to the clothes women wear today.

 

Butero - Why is it that you are so obsessed with these things?

 

If you see a man with long hair and a tattoo and a woman with short hair and pants who each spend time alone with God in prayer and the Bible each morning, who give out of their need to help those less fortunate than themselves, who "turn the other cheek," who bless and pray for those who curse and misuse them, who stand against homosexuality and abortion, and the like - are you going to judge them based on their hair and attire rather than these other things?

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Guest Butero

The answer is very simple Nebula.  I care about those things because I find them in scripture.  I would take note of everything.  You can't excuse sin in certain areas because a person is doing right in other areas.  Jesus said that if you want to be great in his Kingdom, you will teach and live by the least commandments. 

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Guest Butero

I agree that one can be prideful in a false perception of maturity or knowledge. I also admit to some frustration in dealing with this subject, which is coming out in my posts. I repent.

My only question at this point is to explain what it means, then, to "lord it over" another, and how a leader can be controlling and manipulative while serving in a Christlike attitude that puts the other first in agape love.

Here is the scripture in question.  It comes from 1 Peter 5:1-3.

 

1  The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2  Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3  Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

 

The key may be in the word heritage.  This is from the Greek word kieros, which means a die (for drawing chances); by impl. a portion (as if so secured): by extens. an acquisition (espec. a patrimony, fig): heritage, inheritance, lot, part.

 

Everyone is assuming that when it says "neither as being lords over God's heritage," it means his church, but perhaps that is not the case?  Notice what it is speaking about in context.  It is telling the elders they should feed the flock of God, not by force, and that it should not be for money.  Then you see the comment about not being lords over God's portion or inheritance.  It seems to be speaking of money or possessions, not people.  You can see this even more clearly as you look at verse 4.

 

4.  And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. 

 

In other words, you will receive your reward in the next life for your service.  Don't misuse your position for earthly gain by making yourselves lords over the finances of the church.  You may be thinking to yourself, I am really going out of my way to pervert this scripture to make it read as I want, but if it means as people have been claiming, this scripture can be used to come against all authorities in the Christian church.  The Pastor would be lording himself over the flock just trying to run the church and keep order.  The deacons could have the same accusation used against them, as well as the bishops.  This makes no logical sense, and if you take the time to really examine this passage, it is speaking of motives for doing your ministry, and where you will receive your true rewards. 

 

If you really believe this is speaking of the church, then we must do away with all authorities in all ministries and look to Jesus alone as our Lord.  The problem with that is we see actual authorities in the New Testament church.  That interpretations makes no sense.  It looks right when you just read the passage, but it contradicts other scriptures and doesn't really go with the context of the passage. 

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I like it! I live in a very legalistic area, and am strong in freedom and grace ...

... yet you and others on these forums embrace a latter day Galatianism called Lordship Salvation.

For the readers who may not know, will you expound on what you mean by "Lordship Salvation"?

 

It's not what I mean by "Lordship Salvation"; see the above excerpts and links.

I was hoping you could give us your version since you wrote this ...

I don't have my "own" version of the English language, or the Gospels -- that's why I defer to Merriam-Webster and even the Wycliffe Bible Dictionary, which, IMO, was correct in its appraisal of anyone who advocates Lordship Salvation.

In the mid-1980s I produced a Cable-TV show in NYC about aberrational Christian movements -- I had practically memorized Larson's Book of Cults, but had never even heard of "Lordship Salvation" until I came to these forums. It's amazing how many posters here profess God's grace while "hedging their bets" with the leaven of legalism.

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The answer is very simple Nebula.  I care about those things because I find them in scripture.  I would take note of everything.  You can't excuse sin in certain areas because a person is doing right in other areas.  Jesus said that if you want to be great in his Kingdom, you will teach and live by the least commandments. 

 

 

and yet it is the HEART that God judges

 

Judge righteously....not by appearances

 

I am not understanding how God can move a person's heart on the inside and He calls them His own and then someone else comes along and looks them up and down

and decides that they are not worthy because their hair is too long or too short

 

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.  John 7:24  and that is straight from the KJV

 

So maybe someone should be asking what is RIGHTEOUS judgement since the BIBLE instructs us not to judge by appearance but judge righteously...IF one feels they are in such

a place that they actually have God's blessing in their judgement

 

21Jesus said to them, “I did one miracle, and you are all amazed. 22Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a boy on the Sabbath. 23Now if a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath? 24Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.

 

So did Jesus break the law? 

 

I have a thought...If Jesus is the fullfillment of the law,then perhaps we do not need to try and fulfill it ourselves.

 

The arguement being presented by you Mr B, is the same one presented by the Jewish leaders of Jesus day...and worse, these righteous men wanted to kill Jesus because

he did not keep the law....according to their interpretation

 

Scripture simply does not teach keeping a part of the law or emphasizing one portion over another at the expense of loosing the part that illustrates the love of God for the sake

of saying God hates this or that.

 

ROMANS 10  Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

5Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”a 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ”b (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ”c (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”d that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”e 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”f that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

 

Christ IS the righteousness of God.  If you want to keep the law and say well a woman must have a skirt on, then you must also address sideburns and if you address those things, then you must also

be careful of your eating utensils and if you go that far, then never eat pork again and pretty soon you will have to find something to sacrifice because scripture says this:

 

THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD:  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.  Hebrews 9:22

 

Whose blood will you shed?  

 

Those who hear the word also DO the word...and the word is plain that we are not judge by appearance...

 

But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does. James 1:25

 

That is applicable not only to what a person does, but also how they think and how they judge

 

Jesus said those who judged after appearance and without knowledge of the heart were hypocrites.  They did not serve the law...the law served them in their hypocrital zeal to judge others

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