douggg Posted March 24, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 According to Ezekiel 39 when Israel enters a period of peace and safety this will be a SINFUL period: “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name— after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. The time of true blessing for Israel only occurs at the great earthquake which occurs at the second coming. Even Joel confirms Israel only repents on the day of the Lord: For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; Who can endure it? “Now, therefore,” says the Lord, “Turn to Me with all your heart, With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning. I find your references to Isaiah 66 and the parable of the fig tree very unconvincing as references to modern Israel; if read in context. However the two verses I quoted above are very definite references to future Israel before the second coming. The blessing comes upon Israel, at Jesus's return, as they will be welcoming him as "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord". We can fortify that from Daniel 12. In Daniel 12, 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. From that we can deduce, that the abomination of desolaton will be set up to be worshipped, 1335 days before the actual day that Jesus returns, to save the Jews trapped in Jerusalem in Zechariah 14. The aod is the image that the false prophet has made of the slain and come back to life Antichrist. Which in Isaiah 14, he will be brought back to life, after in Ezekiel 28:1-10 God has him killed for going into the temple and claiming to be God. This is sort of working backwards, as I am explaining it. Before going into the temple to claim to be God, he will have been ruling for about 3 years, 4 months as the illicit king of Israel. please bear with me, Jesus was rejected by the Jews and Jerusalem as "the" messiah which is the promised great King of Israel, son of David, anointed. Jesus was received after the resurrection as Savior from our sins, by first the disciples and then the gentiles. Which since then, by tradition, in Christianity, Christians have equated Savior from our sins as being the messiah. But that is not actually what "the" messiah means. In Zechariah 9:9 9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Being the King is that Jesus was the one God sent them to be the King of Israel, son of David, anointed. He has been rejected as that King and crucified. And it has not been fulfilled that he is occupying that Kingship, as Jerusalem has never since been willing to say to Jesus, welcome as that king, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Christians understand "having salvation" is that Jesus was the one who would save us from our sins. Jews, on the other hand, as I have discussed this many times with them, "having salvation" means saved from physical destruction from one's enemies. Which the Antichrist when he comes will have appeared to them to have fulfilled that requirement because to them he will have intended to stave off the Gog/Magog invasion. And for that they will believe he is their long awaited King of Israel, son of David anointed. He will actually be anointed in the special process that kings had been anointed with the special oil - but he will be an illicit King, someone that God did not send to be their King. He will fancy himself to be in that role, coming in his own name. But he will not be the one God sent to be their King. So right after Gog/Magog, which takes place while Israel is still in a state of sin as you have noted, the little horn coming from Europe, with his EU army, arriving a day late and a dollar short, to Israel. Nonetheless, the Jews will perceive that he is their long awaited messiah, the person to fulfill the King of Israel, son of David. In Daniel 9, the bible code names him the prince who shall come. The little horn Antichrist, full of ego, perceives himself to be in that role, and commences to act that way. On the temple mount, he will have the ceremony conducted of the law that Moses set forth for all generations at the end of every seven years, to commemorade his instructions to go in and possess the promised land. It is in Deuteronomy 31:10-11. Thus, he confirms the covenant (Mt. Sinai covenant) "for" seven years. In the middle part of the seven years, the Antichrist illicit King of Israel, because he has been long time delving into the occult, understanding dark sentences as it says in Daniel 8, and getting help from what are fallen angels, demons, and Satan, will have reached a point where Satan will have convinced him that he has achieved God-hood. God in the flesh. That is when Satan enters him to go into the temple and carry out the act of 2Thessalonians 2. The revealed man of sin, son of perdition. Which I noted before, God has him killed in Ezekiel 28:1-10 for that act. Immediately, the Jews will impeach him as their King. And he will turn on them to destroy his land and his people. As it says in Isaiah 14:19-20. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. So God Himself will bring the Antichrist man of sin, son of perdition, back to life as the strong delusion that God will send, to them who believed the Antichrist's great lie that he is God in the flesh. The Antichrist is going to be cast alive directly into the lake of fire, not rest in the grave. Which takes us to Revelation 13, as the Antichrist enters the beast stage of his career. Having come back to life, in conlusion with Satan, the Antichrist will receive addtional power by being possess by the beast spirit ascending out of the bottomless pit. In former times, that beast was Nimrod, from the tower of Babel days. Possessed by Nimrod, a disembodied spirit, the Antichrist becomes the beast. And in Nimrod's fashion leads the world in all out rebellion against God. The false prophet has the image made of the slain Antichrist and come back to life. And places it in the temple. Which is the signal to the Jews, because the two witnesses will be testifying in Jerusalem all along that the Antichrist is not the true messiah and prophesying to the Jews what is going to happen, the Jews will begin fleeing into the mountians. Remember the 1335th days? So Jesus returns on day 2520 (the last day of the 7 years). From that, we can deduce that the aod will be setup on day (2520-1335) 1185 from the day 1, the confirmation of the covenant day. So, on day 1185, the aod will be setup, which must be after the Antichrist is killed and come back to life -since the aod is an image of the slain and comeback to life Antichrist. We don't know when the Antichrist will be slain, the exact day, and come back to life. I think we can assume not many days, because of the decay factor of his body when dead. So after he comes back to life and the image of him made and placed in the temple on day 1185, he as the beast persecutes the Jews as they are desperately trying to flee to the mountains. The Jews are helped by the two witnesses who engage in war against the Antichrist sending plagues upon his kingdom, which I am pretty sure are the first four trumpets. For 75 days, the Jews flee Jerusalem, until finally the Antichrist beast overcomes them and they are killed on day 1260. After they are killed, 3 1/2 days later the two witness ascend to heaven as their enemies watch. A earthquake takes place and kills 7000 there in Jerusalem. Then the 7th trumpet sounds, God has had enough. There is the war in the second heaven, Satan's principality, and Satan and his angels are cast down to earth, as their place in the second heaven (the cosmos) will be found no more. And which will part away in Revelation 6, the sixth seal, when Jesus returns. When Satan is cast down, he opportunes during that last time, times, and half times, to incarnate the aod image of the Antichrist beast making it come alive (in appearance) and demands everyone in the world to worship it, unbeknowing that they are worshipping Satan. I would not say that he incarnates the image full time, but whenever it is on display for the world. Satan will still be roaming the earth, doing that which he has not much time left for. At the end of the great tribulaiton, and God's wrath being poured out on the Antichrist beast's kingdom, in a final effort to get men to turn to Him, God, the end will come at the battle of Armageddon and Jesus return - which is in Ezekiel 39:17-20, the Armageddon feast, followed by Jesus reigning and ruling here on earth in the remaining verses of Ezekiel 39. Who are the two witnesses ? Hi Izzel, I don't know, except that they are two individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted March 24, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) THE 1260 DAYS OF DANIEL 7 The number 1260 is not just a rough figure because it is mentioned seven times in the Bible in various different ways: Daniel 7:25 "a time, times and half a time" Daniel 12:7 "a time, times and half a time" Revelation 11:2 "42 months" Revelation 11:3 "1260 days" Revelation 11:11 3½ years Revelation 12:6 "1260 days" Revelation 12:14 "a time, times and half a time" Revelation 13:5 "forty-two months" It can be shown that all these texts are referring to the same period of time: A time is one year = 360 days Times are two years = 720 days Half a time is half a year = 180 days ----------------------------------------- Therefore the total = 1260 days A month in prophecy is equal to 30 days, therefore forty-two months is equal to 42 x 30 = 1260 days. So we can see that these seven texts are talking about the same period of time, but what does it mean? First of all, the prophecy is not referring to literal days. In prophecy a day is sometimes used to represent a year, and that seems to be the case here. (See Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6) So the prophecy is talking about a period of 1260 years. If we now go back to Daniel 7:25 we can see that it is the power of the Little Horn which will control the "saints" for this period of time. We have already suggested that the Little Horn represents "Papal Rome" so does our figure of 1260 years fit in with the records of history? Papal Rome defeated the last of its major enemies (the Ostrogoths) in the year 538 A.D. when Emperor Justinian's decree came into effect. Throughout the Dark Ages the Catholic church was the most powerful political force in the whole world, and it used its power for political and financial gain as well as for religious purposes. Many millions were persecuted and put to death - "oppressing the saints of the Most High" as Daniel puts it. However the power of the Papal Church came to an end when the armed forces of Napoleon, under general Berthier marched into Rome and took the Pope captive. This happened in the year 1798 A.D. surprisingly (or perhaps not so surprisingly) exactly 1260 years after the Papacy came to power in 538 A.D. Hi Izzel, I don't know if you are outlining the SDA or the Historist view. Why don't you start another thread, with your opening post being the above and I will discuss it with you there. And please tell which one of those two views you are outlining. Edited March 24, 2014 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzel Posted March 24, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 514 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 62 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/01/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1989 Share Posted March 24, 2014 According to Ezekiel 39 when Israel enters a period of peace and safety this will be a SINFUL period: “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name— after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. The time of true blessing for Israel only occurs at the great earthquake which occurs at the second coming. Even Joel confirms Israel only repents on the day of the Lord: For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; Who can endure it? “Now, therefore,” says the Lord, “Turn to Me with all your heart, With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning. I find your references to Isaiah 66 and the parable of the fig tree very unconvincing as references to modern Israel; if read in context. However the two verses I quoted above are very definite references to future Israel before the second coming. The blessing comes upon Israel, at Jesus's return, as they will be welcoming him as "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord". We can fortify that from Daniel 12. In Daniel 12, 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. From that we can deduce, that the abomination of desolaton will be set up to be worshipped, 1335 days before the actual day that Jesus returns, to save the Jews trapped in Jerusalem in Zechariah 14. The aod is the image that the false prophet has made of the slain and come back to life Antichrist. Which in Isaiah 14, he will be brought back to life, after in Ezekiel 28:1-10 God has him killed for going into the temple and claiming to be God. This is sort of working backwards, as I am explaining it. Before going into the temple to claim to be God, he will have been ruling for about 3 years, 4 months as the illicit king of Israel. please bear with me, Jesus was rejected by the Jews and Jerusalem as "the" messiah which is the promised great King of Israel, son of David, anointed. Jesus was received after the resurrection as Savior from our sins, by first the disciples and then the gentiles. Which since then, by tradition, in Christianity, Christians have equated Savior from our sins as being the messiah. But that is not actually what "the" messiah means. In Zechariah 9:9 9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Being the King is that Jesus was the one God sent them to be the King of Israel, son of David, anointed. He has been rejected as that King and crucified. And it has not been fulfilled that he is occupying that Kingship, as Jerusalem has never since been willing to say to Jesus, welcome as that king, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Christians understand "having salvation" is that Jesus was the one who would save us from our sins. Jews, on the other hand, as I have discussed this many times with them, "having salvation" means saved from physical destruction from one's enemies. Which the Antichrist when he comes will have appeared to them to have fulfilled that requirement because to them he will have intended to stave off the Gog/Magog invasion. And for that they will believe he is their long awaited King of Israel, son of David anointed. He will actually be anointed in the special process that kings had been anointed with the special oil - but he will be an illicit King, someone that God did not send to be their King. He will fancy himself to be in that role, coming in his own name. But he will not be the one God sent to be their King. So right after Gog/Magog, which takes place while Israel is still in a state of sin as you have noted, the little horn coming from Europe, with his EU army, arriving a day late and a dollar short, to Israel. Nonetheless, the Jews will perceive that he is their long awaited messiah, the person to fulfill the King of Israel, son of David. In Daniel 9, the bible code names him the prince who shall come. The little horn Antichrist, full of ego, perceives himself to be in that role, and commences to act that way. On the temple mount, he will have the ceremony conducted of the law that Moses set forth for all generations at the end of every seven years, to commemorade his instructions to go in and possess the promised land. It is in Deuteronomy 31:10-11. Thus, he confirms the covenant (Mt. Sinai covenant) "for" seven years. In the middle part of the seven years, the Antichrist illicit King of Israel, because he has been long time delving into the occult, understanding dark sentences as it says in Daniel 8, and getting help from what are fallen angels, demons, and Satan, will have reached a point where Satan will have convinced him that he has achieved God-hood. God in the flesh. That is when Satan enters him to go into the temple and carry out the act of 2Thessalonians 2. The revealed man of sin, son of perdition. Which I noted before, God has him killed in Ezekiel 28:1-10 for that act. Immediately, the Jews will impeach him as their King. And he will turn on them to destroy his land and his people. As it says in Isaiah 14:19-20. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. So God Himself will bring the Antichrist man of sin, son of perdition, back to life as the strong delusion that God will send, to them who believed the Antichrist's great lie that he is God in the flesh. The Antichrist is going to be cast alive directly into the lake of fire, not rest in the grave. Which takes us to Revelation 13, as the Antichrist enters the beast stage of his career. Having come back to life, in conlusion with Satan, the Antichrist will receive addtional power by being possess by the beast spirit ascending out of the bottomless pit. In former times, that beast was Nimrod, from the tower of Babel days. Possessed by Nimrod, a disembodied spirit, the Antichrist becomes the beast. And in Nimrod's fashion leads the world in all out rebellion against God. The false prophet has the image made of the slain Antichrist and come back to life. And places it in the temple. Which is the signal to the Jews, because the two witnesses will be testifying in Jerusalem all along that the Antichrist is not the true messiah and prophesying to the Jews what is going to happen, the Jews will begin fleeing into the mountians. Remember the 1335th days? So Jesus returns on day 2520 (the last day of the 7 years). From that, we can deduce that the aod will be setup on day (2520-1335) 1185 from the day 1, the confirmation of the covenant day. So, on day 1185, the aod will be setup, which must be after the Antichrist is killed and come back to life -since the aod is an image of the slain and comeback to life Antichrist. We don't know when the Antichrist will be slain, the exact day, and come back to life. I think we can assume not many days, because of the decay factor of his body when dead. So after he comes back to life and the image of him made and placed in the temple on day 1185, he as the beast persecutes the Jews as they are desperately trying to flee to the mountains. The Jews are helped by the two witnesses who engage in war against the Antichrist sending plagues upon his kingdom, which I am pretty sure are the first four trumpets. For 75 days, the Jews flee Jerusalem, until finally the Antichrist beast overcomes them and they are killed on day 1260. After they are killed, 3 1/2 days later the two witness ascend to heaven as their enemies watch. A earthquake takes place and kills 7000 there in Jerusalem. Then the 7th trumpet sounds, God has had enough. There is the war in the second heaven, Satan's principality, and Satan and his angels are cast down to earth, as their place in the second heaven (the cosmos) will be found no more. And which will part away in Revelation 6, the sixth seal, when Jesus returns. When Satan is cast down, he opportunes during that last time, times, and half times, to incarnate the aod image of the Antichrist beast making it come alive (in appearance) and demands everyone in the world to worship it, unbeknowing that they are worshipping Satan. I would not say that he incarnates the image full time, but whenever it is on display for the world. Satan will still be roaming the earth, doing that which he has not much time left for. At the end of the great tribulaiton, and God's wrath being poured out on the Antichrist beast's kingdom, in a final effort to get men to turn to Him, God, the end will come at the battle of Armageddon and Jesus return - which is in Ezekiel 39:17-20, the Armageddon feast, followed by Jesus reigning and ruling here on earth in the remaining verses of Ezekiel 39. Who are the two witnesses ? Hi Izzel, I don't know, except that they are two individuals. “These (speaking of the two witnesses) ARE the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks( lampstands) standing before the God of the earth.” And I began to think, “WHAT TWO OLIVE TREES”. TWO OLIVE trees I had read about Israel being the natural olive tree and how we as Gentiles who became Christians were considered or called a wild olive tree being grafted into the natural olive tree, which represented spiritual Israel or the church not two individuals like Moses and Elijah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted March 24, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Hi Izzel, why don't you start a new thread outlining your view of the 1260 days and the two witnesses and I will I discuss it with you in a separate thread. Also it would be helpful if you would say whether you voicing the SDA view or the historist view. What you are outlining is one of those two views. I see in your profile that you are 24 years old. That is about the age I became a Christian, over 40 years ago. I am very familar with what you are writing concerning the 1260 days, however, it is not simply a conversion issue as you are thinking. There is a reason for all those seemingly the same periods of time, not being exactly equilvalents of each other. btw, I am a retired engineer, so I understand the principle of converting to like units. But in bible prophecy there are nuances in the events which those time frames are expressed differently for a reason. Edited March 24, 2014 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 26, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted March 26, 2014 According to Ezekiel 39 when Israel enters a period of peace and safety this will be a SINFUL period:“Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name— after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid.The time of true blessing for Israel only occurs at the great earthquake which occurs at the second coming. Even Joel confirms Israel only repents on the day of the Lord:For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; Who can endure it? “Now, therefore,” says the Lord, “Turn to Me with all your heart, With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning.I find your references to Isaiah 66 and the parable of the fig tree very unconvincing as references to modern Israel; if read in context. However the two verses I quoted above are very definite references to future Israel before the second coming. The blessing comes upon Israel, at Jesus's return, as they will be welcoming him as "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord". We can fortify that from Daniel 12. In Daniel 12, 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. From that we can deduce, that the abomination of desolation will be set up to be worshipped, 1335 days before the actual day that Jesus returns, to save the Jews trapped in Jerusalem in Zechariah 14. The aod is the image that the false prophet has made of the slain and come back to life Antichrist. Which in Isaiah 14, he will be brought back to life, after in Ezekiel 28:1-10 God has him killed for going into the temple and claiming to be God. This is sort of working backwards, as I am explaining it. Before going into the temple to claim to be God, he will have been ruling for about 3 years, 4 months as the illicit king of Israel. please bear with me, Jesus was rejected by the Jews and Jerusalem as "the" messiah which is the promised great King of Israel, son of David, anointed.Jesus was received after the resurrection as Savior from our sins, by first the disciples and then the gentiles. Which since then, by tradition, in Christianity, Christians have equated Savior from our sins as being the messiah. But that is not actually what "the" messiah means.In Zechariah 9:99 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.Being the King is that Jesus was the one God sent them to be the King of Israel, son of David, anointed. He has been rejected as that King and crucified. And it has not been fulfilled that he is occupying that Kingship, as Jerusalem has never since been willing to say to Jesus, welcome as that king, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.Christians understand "having salvation" is that Jesus was the one who would save us from our sins. Jews, on the other hand, as I have discussed this many times with them, "having salvation" means saved from physical destruction from one's enemies.Which the Antichrist when he comes will have appeared to them to have fulfilled that requirement because to them he will have intended to stave off the Gog/Magog invasion. And for that they will believe he is their long awaited King of Israel, son of David anointed. He will actually be anointed in the special process that kings had been anointed with the special oil - but he will be an illicit King, someone that God did not send to be their King. He will fancy himself to be in that role, coming in his own name. But he will not be the one God sent to be their King. So right after Gog/Magog, which takes place while Israel is still in a state of sin as you have noted, the little horn coming from Europe, with his EU army, arriving a day late and a dollar short, to Israel. Nonetheless, the Jews will perceive that he is their long awaited messiah, the person to fulfill the King of Israel, son of David. In Daniel 9, the bible code names him the prince who shall come. The little horn Antichrist, full of ego, perceives himself to be in that role, and commences to act that way. On the temple mount, he will have the ceremony conducted of the law that Moses set forth for all generations at the end of every seven years, to commemorate his instructions to go in and possess the promised land. It is in Deuteronomy 31:10-11. Thus, he confirms the covenant (Mt. Sinai covenant) "for" seven years. In the middle part of the seven years, the Antichrist illicit King of Israel, because he has been long time delving into the occult, understanding dark sentences as it says in Daniel 8, and getting help from what are fallen angels, demons, and Satan, will have reached a point where Satan will have convinced him that he has achieved God-hood. God in the flesh. That is when Satan enters him to go into the temple and carry out the act of 2Thessalonians 2. The revealed man of sin, son of perdition. Which I noted before, God has him killed in Ezekiel 28:1-10 for that act. Immediately, the Jews will impeach him as their King. And he will turn on them to destroy his land and his people. As it says in Isaiah 14:19-20. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. So God Himself will bring the Antichrist man of sin, son of perdition, back to life as the strong delusion that God will send, to them who believed the Antichrist's great lie that he is God in the flesh. The Antichrist is going to be cast alive directly into the lake of fire, not rest in the grave. Which takes us to Revelation 13, as the Antichrist enters the beast stage of his career. Having come back to life, and in conlusion with Satan, the Antichrist will receive addtional power by being possessed by the beast spirit ascending out of the bottomless pit. In former times, that beast was Nimrod, from the tower of Babel days. Possessed by Nimrod, a disembodied spirit, the Antichrist becomes the beast. And in Nimrod's fashion leads the world in all out rebellion against God. The false prophet has the image made of the slain Antichrist and come back to life. And places it in the temple. Which is the signal to the Jews, because the two witnesses will be testifying in Jerusalem all along that the Antichrist is not the true messiah and prophesying to the Jews what is going to happen, the Jews will begin fleeing into the mountians. Remember the 1335th days? So Jesus returns on day 2520 (the last day of the 7 years). From that, we can deduce that the aod will be setup on day (2520-1335) 1185 from the day 1, the confirmation of the covenant day. So, on day 1185, the aod will be setup, which must be after the Antichrist is killed and come back to life -since the aod is an image of the slain and comeback to life Antichrist. We don't know when the Antichrist will be slain, the exact day, and come back to life. I think we can assume not many days, because of the decay factor of his body when dead. So after he comes back to life and the image of him made and placed in the temple on day 1185, he as the beast persecutes the Jews as they are desperately trying to flee to the mountains. The Jews are helped by the two witnesses who engage in war against the Antichrist sending plagues upon his kingdom, which I am pretty sure are the first four trumpets. For 75 days, the Jews flee Jerusalem, until finally the Antichrist beast overcomes thetwo witnesses and they are killed on day 1260. The Jews who don't make it out of Jerusalem are trapped there until Jesus returns to rescue them in Zechariah 14. They will have turned to Jesus, because their eyes will be opened to all their mistakes and none bigger than embracing the Antichrist little horn thinking he's their messiah, when comes from Europe, as the prince who shall come. After they are killed, 3 1/2 days later the two witnesses ascend to heaven as their enemies watch. A earthquake takes place and kills 7000 there in Jerusalem. Then the 7th trumpet sounds, God has had enough. There is the war in the second heaven, Satan's principality, and Satan and his angels are cast down to earth, as their place in the second heaven (the cosmos) will be found no more. And which the cosmos will eventually part away in Revelation 6, the sixth seal, right at the end of the seven years when Jesus returns. When Satan is cast down, he opportunes during that last time, times, and half times, to incarnate the aod image of the Antichrist beast making it come alive (in appearance) and demands everyone in the world to worship it, unbeknowing that they are worshipping Satan. I would not say that he incarnates the image full time, but whenever it is on display for the world. Satan will still be roaming the earth, doing that which he has not much time left for. At the end of the great tribulation, and God's wrath being poured out on the Antichrist beast's kingdom, in a final effort to get men to turn to Him, God, the end will come at the battle of Armageddon and Jesus's return - which is in Ezekiel 39:17-20, the Armageddon feast, followed by Jesus reigning and ruling here on earth in the remaining verses of Ezekiel 39.Hi Doug,You say so much, I'm not sure of the value of discussing each point of difference. I will just list where I agree and where I disagree:1) I agree the blessing comes upon Israel when Jesus returns2) I agree that the antichrist will be a false Messiah - ie a Jewish leaderThis about covers the main points in this thread and so I am glad we are in agreement3) I disagree that the antichrist turns on Israel. I believe Israel is at peace under the antichrist when Gog attacks4) I disagree that the antichrist is killed/wounded, I believe all references to the beast having a wound or being killed are referring to the rise and fall of kingdoms, not individuals5) I believe the two witnesses overlap the last 3.5 years, and are not earlier. They are preaching against the antichrist who rules during the 3.5 years of the peace and protection of Israel. This is during the "abomination" period.Feel free to discuss any of these points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted March 30, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) 3) I disagree that the antichrist turns on Israel. I believe Israel is at peace under the antichrist when Gog attacks 4) I disagree that the antichrist is killed/wounded, I believe all references to the beast having a wound or being killed are referring to the rise and fall of kingdoms, not individuals 5) I believe the two witnesses overlap the last 3.5 years, and are not earlier. They are preaching against the antichrist who rules during the 3.5 years of the peace and protection of Israel. This is during the "abomination" period. Feel free to discuss any of these points Okay, a quick preference to discussing your points: Once we take hold of what "the" messiah means in terms of the context of the old testament prophecies, then we can change our frame of reference to who the Anti-messiah is - so we can put together all of the end times prophecies. So the understanding of the Antichrist in terms of putting all of the prophecies together is about his rise to becoming that illicit King of Israel, son of David. And then his fall from it, from being thought of as that great promised King of Israel. All of long of course, he will be against Jesus, but it is not until after his fall, and him becoming the beast in Revelation that he goes on all out war against Jesus. The Antichrist's career, for lack of a better word, has 4 stages, in the order presented in the bible. And in order from beginning to end. his rise: 1. little horn politician (Daniel 7,8), then... 2. the prince who shall come, to be the illicit perceived King of Israel (Daniel 9), then.... his fall: 3. the revealed man of sin (2Thessalonians2), then.... 4. the beast (Revelation) All of the prophecies regarding the Antichrist can fit under those 4 stages. Argosy your points: 3) I disagree that the antichrist turns on Israel. I believe Israel is at peace under the antichrist when Gog attacks In Ezekiel 38, there is no mention of anyone who could be viewed as the defender of Israel when Gog/Magog attacks. Of which person, we could say is the Antichrist and him the defender of peace. In Ezekiel 39, the timing of Gog/Magog can be determined to be right before the Antichrist arrives in Israel, as their perceived messiah. How so? Because in Ezekiel 39, there are two feasts by the birds and wild animals on the carion, dead bodies of them God destroys. The first is in Ezekiel 39:4: Which is the feast on God's army. Followed by detailed clean-up of the land, and 7 years of burning the war implements for fuel. Then in Ezekiel 39:17-20, there is another prophecy given to Ezekiel, about another feast, at the end ofthe 7 years. That feast is the Armageddon feast of Revelation 19, as Jesus returns, and the heathen have gathered together to make war on him. We can cite Psalms 2. 4) I disagree that the antichrist is killed/wounded, I believe all references to the beast having a wound or being killed are referring to the rise and fall of kingdoms, not individuals. The seven heads are kings that are associated with the city that the woman has her residence - Rome. In Daniel 7 and Daniel 2, the kingdom at the time of Jesus's return is the fourth kingdom - the Roman Empire. Of those seven heads, the Antichrist will be seventh king of the Roman Empire. He becomes that king in Daniel 7, coming up amongst the ten kings of their kingdom. He is not killed and come back alive until right before the last 42 months begin, in Revelation 13, as there are no mortally wounded heads in either Revelation 12 or Revelation 17. He will be killed for going into the temple and claiming to be God. Ezekiel 28:1-10. And come back to life. Isaiah 14:18-20. 5) I believe the two witnesses overlap the last 3.5 years, and are not earlier. They are preaching against the antichrist who rules during the 3.5 years of the peace and protection of Israel. This is during the "abomination" period. The two witnesses are killed by the beast from the bottomless pit. Their ministry is the first 1260 days of the 7 years. The abomination of desolation will be setup on day 1185. Revelation 12:6, those 1260 days are the ministry time of the two witnesses. At the exact midpoint, they are killed, their bodies lay in the streets 3 1/2 days, So after 1263.5 days they ascend. Leaving 1256:5 days in the seven years, with the Antichrist beast operating during that last 1256.5 days on a binge unhampered by the two witnesses. Rather than saying 1256.5 days, in Revelation 13, it says 42 months, not exact days. When the two witnesses ascend, there 1260 days equating to the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6, the 7 trumpet sounds, and there is a war in the second heaven and Satan is cast down to earth - having not 1260 days left, nor 1256.5 days (42 months), but a lesser period of time - the time, times, and half times of Revelation 12:14. So, if I were to put the activities in context of the stages of the Antichrist career: his rise: 1. little horn politician (Daniel 7,8) a. Gog/Magog takes place. 2. the prince who shall come, to be the illicit perceived King of Israel (Daniel 9) a. little horn arrives, as the prince who shall come, the Jews believe he is their messiah, and he oversees Deut 31:10-11 to begin the 7 years. his fall: 3. the revealed man of sin (2Thessalonians2) a. goes into the temple to show himself to be God b. God has him mortally wounded. Ezekiel 28:1-10 c. God in his disdain for him brings him back alive. Isaiah 14:18-20. 4. the beast (Revelation) a. He is possessed by the spirit of Nimrod. b. kills the two witnesses. day 1260 c. the two witnesses ascend. day 1263.5, leaving 1256.5 days in the 7 years, the 42 months in Revelation 13 d. the war in heaven and Satan is cast down. His time is short, not 1260 days, not 42 months, but something less - the time, times, and half times. Edited March 30, 2014 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 30, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted March 30, 2014 3) I disagree that the antichrist turns on Israel. I believe Israel is at peace under the antichrist when Gog attacks4) I disagree that the antichrist is killed/wounded, I believe all references to the beast having a wound or being killed are referring to the rise and fall of kingdoms, not individuals5) I believe the two witnesses overlap the last 3.5 years, and are not earlier. They are preaching against the antichrist who rules during the 3.5 years of the peace and protection of Israel. This is during the "abomination" period.Feel free to discuss any of these points Okay, a quick preference to discussing your points: Once we take hold of what "the" messiah means in terms of the context of the old testament prophecies, then we can change our frame of reference to who the Anti-messiah is - so we can put together all of the end times prophecies.So the understanding of the Antichrist in terms of putting all of the prophecies together is about his rise to becoming that illicit King of Israel, son of David. And then his fall from it, from being thought of as that great promised King of Israel.All of long of course, he will be against Jesus, but it is not until after his fall, and him becoming the beast in Revelation that he goes on all out war against Jesus.The Antichrist's career, for lack of a better word, has 4 stages, in the order presented in the bible. And in order from beginning to end.his rise:1. little horn politician (Daniel 7,8), then...2. the prince who shall come, to be the illicit perceived King of Israel (Daniel 9), then....his fall:3. the revealed man of sin (2Thessalonians2), then....4. the beast (Revelation)All of the prophecies regarding the Antichrist can fit under those 4 stages. Argosy your points: 3) I disagree that the antichrist turns on Israel. I believe Israel is at peace under the antichrist when Gog attacks In Ezekiel 38, there is no mention of anyone who could be viewed as the defender of Israel when Gog/Magog attacks. Of which person, we could say is the Antichrist and him the defender of peace. In Ezekiel 39, the timing of Gog/Magog can be determined to be right before the Antichrist arrives in Israel, as their perceived messiah. How so? Because in Ezekiel 39, there are two feasts by the birds and wild animals on the carion, dead bodies of them God destroys. The first is in Ezekiel 39:4: Which is the feast on God's army. Followed by detailed clean-up of the land, and 7 years of burning the war implements for fuel. Then in Ezekiel 39:17-20, there is another prophecy given to Ezekiel, about another feast, at the end ofthe 7 years. That feast is the Armageddon feast of Revelation 19, as Jesus returns, and the heathen have gathered together to make war on him. We can cite Psalms 2. 4) I disagree that the antichrist is killed/wounded, I believe all references to the beast having a wound or being killed are referring to the rise and fall of kingdoms, not individuals. The seven heads are kings that are associated with the city that the woman has her residence - Rome. In Daniel 7 and Daniel 2, the kingdom at the time of Jesus's return is the fourth kingdom - the Roman Empire. Of those seven heads, the Antichrist will be seventh king of the Roman Empire. He becomes that king in Daniel 7, coming up amongst the ten kings of their kingdom. He is not killed and come back alive until right before the last 42 months begin, in Revelation 13, as there are no mortally wounded heads in either Revelation 12 or Revelation 17. He will be killed for going into the temple and claiming to be God. Ezekiel 28:1-10. And come back to life. Isaiah 14:18-20. 5) I believe the two witnesses overlap the last 3.5 years, and are not earlier. They are preaching against the antichrist who rules during the 3.5 years of the peace and protection of Israel. This is during the "abomination" period. The two witnesses are killed by the beast from the bottomless pit. Their ministry is the first 1260 days of the 7 years. The abomination of desolation will be setup on day 1185. Revelation 12:6, those 1260 days are the ministry time of the two witnesses. At the exact midpoint, they are killed, their bodies lay in the streets 3 1/2 days, So after 1263.5 days they ascend. Leaving 1256:5 days in the seven years, with the Antichrist beast operating during that last 1256.5 days on a binge unhampered by the two witnesses. Rather than saying 1256.5 days, in Revelation 13, it says 42 months, not exact days. When the two witnesses ascend, there 1260 days equating to the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6, the 7 trumpet sounds, and there is a war in the second heaven and Satan is cast down to earth - having not 1260 days left, nor 1256.5 days (42 months), but a lesser period of time - the time, times, and half times of Revelation 12:14. So, if I were to put the activities in context of the stages of the Antichrist career: his rise:1. little horn politician (Daniel 7,8) a. Gog/Magog takes place. 2. the prince who shall come, to be the illicit perceived King of Israel (Daniel 9) a. little horn arrives, as the prince who shall come, the Jews believe he is their messiah, and he oversees Deut 31:10-11 to begin the 7 years. his fall:3. the revealed man of sin (2Thessalonians2) a. goes into the temple to show himself to be God b. God has him mortally wounded. Ezekiel 28:1-10 c. God in his disdain for him brings him back alive. Isaiah 14:18-20.4. the beast (Revelation) a. He is possessed by the spirit of Nimrod. b. kills the two witnesses. day 1260 c. the two witnesses ascend. day 1263.5, leaving 1256.5 days in the 7 years, the 42 months in Revelation 13 d. the war in heaven and Satan is cast down. His time is short, not 1260 days, not 42 months, but something less - the time, times, and half times.Hi Dougg, thanks for the reply. Due to the fact that your post is so long... I may miss some of your points.1) Regarding the antichrist, I believe the "little horn" of Dan 7 is 3.5 years preceding the second coming:And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.So this overlaps the 2 thess 2 revealed man of sin period, and the Rev 13 beast period, and the Dan 9 abomination period.All refer contextually to the same 3.5 year great tribulation period, which is the rule of the antichrist/little horn/beast/abomination.2) I disagree with your timing of Ezekiel 39. This attack ends with a great earthquake, there is only one earthquake that huge, and it is described as a second coming earthquake elsewhere. Verses that mention this earthquake are Isaiah 29:6, Rev 6:12, Rev 8:5, Rev 11:19, Rev 16:18 Also I do not believe there will be two wars of such magnitude against Israel, both which involve many nations, both that involve the repentance and restoration of Israel, both that involve an attack from the northern army, both that involve an intervention by God with fire, both involve the same description of a great feast for the birds, both involve a great earthquake. That is just too much duplication to be seriously considered as two separate events. So I firmly believe that Ezekiel 39 is the war of Armageddon that occurs at the second coming. The 7 years that follow the Ezekiel war are therefore the first 7 years of the millenium, and not referring to the tribulation. Even though the antichrist is not mentioned in Ezekiel 38/39, no single prophecy contains a the full range of end-time details so that point isn't strong enough.3) Regarding the 7 heads, these are consecutive kingdoms. Daniel 7/8 are clear heads = kingdoms. One of the seven heads has a wound, but the beast is the eighth head, NOT the seventh head as you say:Rev 17: please note heads AND kings are symbols for kingdoms in Daniel 7Rev 17 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an EIGHTH king.Thus we have a wounded head/kingdom (I believe its the 6th kingdom which is wounded) and a re-appearing 8th kingdom. I believe the 8th re-appearing kingdom also represents the healed wound of the 6th kingdom.4) Witnesses: a) They end their preaching by being rapturedb) they are during the second woe. the third woe is the second coming, so they preach just before the second comingc) There is a severe earthquake in Israel, this is a sign of the second coming.d) the order of events places the witnesses with the 6th trumpet, which is the gathering and attack of the end-times armies just before the second coming. (7th trumpet)So I place the 2 witnesses during the great tribulation. The 1260 days of the protection of Israel is the same as the 1260 days of the great tribulation, I'm not sure why you say they differ? Most mentions of 3.5 years are referring only to the great tribulation, the final 3.5 years.My sequence of events is different:Antichrist comes to power. this is the abomination. He rules for 3.5 years and persecutes the saints. The witnesses start preaching against him at the same time as he comes to power. Year/years and half a year is the same as 42 months/1260 days. at the end of his reign we have the rapture, and the rapture of the witnesses and Armageddon and the second coming:v 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.v14 So that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a timeSee? The bible gives the scale, and associates the phrase "time, times and half a time" with 1260 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted April 2, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 2, 2014 (edited) Hi Dougg, thanks for the reply. Due to the fact that your post is so long... I may miss some of your points. 1) Regarding the antichrist, I believe the "little horn" of Dan 7 is 3.5 years preceding the second coming: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. So this overlaps the 2 thess 2 revealed man of sin period, and the Rev 13 beast period, and the Dan 9 abomination period. All refer contextually to the same 3.5 year great tribulation period, which is the rule of the antichrist/little horn/beast/abomination. Well, the overlap is because the Antichrist in the four stages to his career is the same person all the way through. The end is the same whether his code name be, the litte horn, the prince who shall come, the revealed man of sin, the beast Little horn.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................cast into the lake of fire. prince who shall come.........................................................................................(7 years).................... ......................................................cast into the lake of fire. revealed man of sin........................................................................................................................cast into the lake of fire. the beast............... (42 months).......................................................cast into the lake of fire 2) I disagree with your timing of Ezekiel 39. This attack ends with a great earthquake, there is only one earthquake that huge, and it is described as a second coming earthquake elsewhere. Verses that mention this earthquake are Isaiah 29:6, Rev 6:12, Rev 8:5, Rev 11:19, Rev 16:18 Also I do not believe there will be two wars of such magnitude against Israel, both which involve many nations, both that involve the repentance and restoration of Israel, both that involve an attack from the northern army, both that involve an intervention by God with fire, both involve the same description of a great feast for the birds, both involve a great earthquake. That is just too much duplication to be seriously considered as two separate events. So I firmly believe that Ezekiel 39 is the war of Armageddon that occurs at the second coming. The 7 years that follow the Ezekiel war are therefore the first 7 years of the millenium, and not referring to the tribulation. Even though the antichrist is not mentioned in Ezekiel 38/39, no single prophecy contains a the full range of end-time details so that point isn't strong enough. The feast on Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:4 takes place in the text before the 7 years begin (of burning the weapons for fuel). After that 7 years, there is a second feast in Ezekiel 39 (:17-20) which matches the Armageddon feast in Revelation 19:17-18. 3) Regarding the 7 heads, these are consecutive kingdoms. Daniel 7/8 are clear heads = kingdoms. One of the seven heads has a wound, but the beast is the eighth head, NOT the seventh head as you say:Rev 17: please note heads AND kings are symbols for kingdoms in Daniel 7 The beast is not a head at all. The beast will be the eighth king. But the beast is never said to be a head. There are only 7 heads. The Antichrist, little horn, is the seventh head. He will be in the revealed man of sin stage, when God has him killed for going into the temple and claiming to be God. Rev 17 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an EIGHTH king. Thus we have a wounded head/kingdom (I believe its the 6th kingdom which is wounded) and a re-appearing 8th kingdom. I believe the 8th re-appearing kingdom also represents the healed wound of the 6th kingdom. The six kings are accounted for in Revelation 17, which none of the heads are wounded in Revelation 17:3. It is not until Revelation 13, with 42 months before Jesus returns, that there appears a wounded head. So since the six kings are accounted for in Revelation 17, with none of the heads wounded - the only one left is the 7th head. 4) Witnesses: a) They end their preaching by being raptured b) they are during the second woe. the third woe is the second coming, so they preach just before the second coming c) There is a severe earthquake in Israel, this is a sign of the second coming. d) the order of events places the witnesses with the 6th trumpet, which is the gathering and attack of the end-times armies just before the second coming. (7th trumpet) The two witnesses are dead and brought back to life. The rapture is of them who are alive and changed. The rapture will take place at the resurrection of the dead in Christ, but the rapture itself is of them who are alive. Edited April 2, 2014 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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