Does God know what He will be doing a trillion years from now?

[TruthFirst]

 

 

Exodus 33:18-23

And he said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory.

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

And it shall come to pass, while my glory passes by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

 

In response to Moses’ request to see God’s Glory, God says I will make all my goodness pass before thee and yet right after that He says you can’t see my face (the front of his Glory) lest he die. I see here 2 types of Glory, a glory that can be revealed and one that can not. And the revealed Glory is Chap. 34:6-7. The list is there.

 

And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

 

 

Thank you.  I feel like what you said was a stretch, but at least I understand where you came up with your conclusions.  What about the other comments he made "and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation?"  To say that that list was the seen by looking at God's back side, and then mention things we don't see, as well as not mentioning those comments seems like a stretch to me. 

 

 

The 3rd and 4th generation thing gets into spiritual warfare, consequences and effects of sin, etc. It gets way beyond this topic.

Edited March 22, 2014 by TruthFirst

[Guest Butero]

 

"In a way we do have free will, and in another way, free will is an illusion." 

 

There is no contradiction there.  God creates me knowing everything I will do in my life.  In that sense, I have no free will.  At the same time, I am making decisions throughout the day, so in that sense, I have free will.  I am choosing to respond to this thread, but God knew I would do that a trillion years ago. 

 

So God creates Lucifer knowing full that he will rebel which is exactly part of His plan. And when it happens God send him to hell. In other words God creates someone with a club foot, they obviously have no say in the matter, but everyone with a club foot goes to hell. Sounds fair to me????

 

How do you arrive at the conclusion that everyone with a club foot goes to hell?  Yes, God created Lucifer knowing he would become Satan and rebel against him. 

[ajchurney]

Truth First,

I have attempted to read most of the posts in the thread, but it has gotten quite long quickly and I do not have unlimited time! I have a couple issues with the angle you take here, but I will try to address them singularly so that the exchange is more efficient. The largest issue I have with your approach is that you consistently place God within the continuum of time. All of your theory is dependent upon God being bound in time, having no idea what is going to happen in the future, except by his total knowledge of what has already occurred. Your theory of eternality is limited to extension into infinite possibility of time, but not an existence outside of time, or timelessness. One problem I have with this theory is the EXTENT of biblical prophecy. Between Daniel and Revelation, there is enough sweeping prophecy of major future events, with enough specific details that one would have to conclude that if God does not already exist in our future (if He is timeless), them He would have to CAUSE many, many things to happen in order to make prophesies sure. The problem here is that so many of the prophesies include a great deal of evil things and actions of extremely evil spirits and diabolically influenced people. This creates quite a conundrum for God, doesn't it? God is predicting by Divine "best guess" (better than anyone else's, but still a guess if He does not surely know the future), not by 100% sure, eyewitness account by being there (timeless). So. let's start here, if you would please explain your view, especially in light of John's experience in Revelation, where God is not merely telling John what is going to happen, but literally SHOWING him things to come, even things that are long into the future in Heaven, even SHOWING him new Jerusalem descending from heaven and suchlike. John said that he was "in the spirit" during all of the revelation, and would seem that he was literally taken to the events by the Spirit. How can this happen if the future (to us) simply does not exist yet, even to God Himself? 

 

PS-The balance and tension between God's sovereignty and essence and that of man's freewill and his essence is extremely high ground that I am not convinced mortal man can entirely comprehend, though we may be able to partly grasp that which we cannot entirely know by experience (God's end). In other words, this is an area where His thoughts and ways are PARTICULARLY higher than ours!! One thing that we must not do is put human limitations on God, or attribute Godly knowledge to ourselves. This does not mean that we should not reach for the highest POSSIBLE understanding, but merely to recognize and be humble about our LIMITATIONS.

 

Blessings,

Andy

Edited March 23, 2014 by ajchurney

[TruthFirst]

I guess I never considered the thread. My bad. If the moderator wishes to throw this conversation somewhere else, I'm fine with that. Once again I do not say or espouse the thought that God is NOT all knowing. What I'm saying is that the free will decisions, that angels or we make, are not a knowable thing until the very moment of there existence or until it they actually takes place. Therefore, if they do not exist, there is nothing to be known or knowable. God still knows everything. He knows everything about His creation, that goes without saying because He created it. God obviously is aware of every one of His own thoughts as He formulates them in His mind and God knows immediately the thoughts of our own mind as they come in to existence.

 

Now I know that this line of thinking brings up many other questions but no more than thinking that God knows  His own thoughts in advance.

That to me is the most illogical statement ever made. (Not saying you espouse that reasoning because I don’t know exactly where you stand on this issue.) *** REMOVED PERSONAL ATTACK *** The problem with arrogance is that it clouds our judgment. Hence Butero believes that Judas was create for the sole purpose of betraying Jesus and then hell. This thought is a Dung Beatle in the ointment of God’s divine attributes. A loving, good God, in which there is no evil, cannot do that. So there must be another explanation. And when we can’t explain that, we say, well God is sovereign, He can do what He wants. I agree He can do what He wants but never in a way that compromises His other attributes. The sovereignty card becomes a trump card for something that doesn’t make sense but we can’t explain. Whether the potter creates a beautiful vase or a chamber pot, they both have their purpose, especially in the middle of the night, And He desires ALL to be saved and have a relationship with Him.

I used to think along the lines of pre-destination but there was always the nagging question of free will. Actually I believe that if Paul was alive in the days of Calvin, he would have been burned at the stake for his heretical beliefs. But the church at that time wasn’t competent enough to refute his doctrine. So it is here today alive and well poisoning the minds of many, not only Christians but sinners alike. Many a sinner is outside of the kingdom because they cannot conceive a good, gracious and loving God who creates more humans to go to hell than heaven. But when I get them to consider want I believe, all of a sudden I have there full attention. I manage the change their focus from a cruel God to a loving God who a Saviour for them. I take away their excuse of, “Well that’s the way you made me, to go to hell. It’s Your fault not mine”.

This post makes no sense.  The first paragraph contradicts itself.  As arrogant as I am, I decided to let it slide, rather than pointing it out.  You first say God knows all things, and then you say there are things that are not knowable.  God either knows all things, which would mean the future, or he doesn't know all things.  In another thread, you said God could be 99.9 percent certain about things but not 100 percent certain.  That would mean he doesn't know all things.  I saw it before, but I didn't say anything about it.

 

You don't understand what I mean because you try to comprehend it from the standpoint of your own beliefs. You need to forget what you believe, I don't mean to give up what you believe, and look at it from my point of view.

I say: The free will decisions of the future cannot be known, because it has not come to pass. It will only be known we arrive at that point of future and make that decision whether good or bad. In other words if I'm not even a thought in my parents, non existent, how one know any decision that I will make. You say; simple God's in the future and sees it all. I say; God is not in the future, He is in the now, "I AM". Not taking the past and the present and future and condensing it into NOW. HE lives in an eternal successions of NOWS. One day (day, parsec, pixel, whatever you want to use as a point of reference for God) after the other from eternity past to eternity future. Not one day from another having any effect on God Himself, because 1=1000 and 1000=1. So that the future cannot be known because God is not there yet in His eternal existence. His presently NOT at the Battle of Armageddon, nor is He bringing in a new heaven and new earth. But He can prophesy about these things because He can make them come to pass, not because He knows or sees them ahead of time.

Jeremiah 32:35 (KJV)

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

 

Can you explain this verse to me in light of what you believe?

Edited March 25, 2014 by OneLight

[TruthFirst]

Truth First,

I have attempted to read most of the posts in the thread, but it has gotten quite long quickly and I do not have unlimited time! I have a couple issues with the angle you take here, but I will try to address them singularly so that the exchange is more efficient. The largest issue I have with your approach is that you consistently place 1) God within the continuum of time. All of your theory is dependent upon God being bound in time, having no idea what is going to happen in the future, except by his total knowledge of what has already occurred. Your theory of eternality is limited to extension into infinite possibility of time, but not an existence outside of time, or timelessness. One problem I have with this theory is the EXTENT of biblical prophecy. Between Daniel and Revelation, there is enough sweeping prophecy of major future events, with enough specific details that one would have to conclude that 2) if God does not already exist in our future (if He is timeless), them He would have to CAUSE many, many things to happen in order to make prophesies sure. The problem here is that so many of the prophesies include a great deal of evil things and actions of extremely evil spirits and diabolically influenced people. This creates quite a conundrum for God, doesn't it? God is predicting by Divine "best guess" (better than anyone else's, but still a guess if He does not surely know the future), not by 100% sure, eyewitness account by being there (timeless). So. let's start here, if you would please explain your view, especially in light of 3) John's experience in Revelation, where God is not merely telling John what is going to happen, but literally SHOWING him things to come, even things that are long into the future in Heaven, even SHOWING him new Jerusalem descending from heaven and suchlike. John said that he was "in the spirit" during all of the revelation, and 4) would seem that he was literally taken to the events by the Spirit. How can this happen if the future (to us) simply does not exist yet, even to God Himself? 

 

PS-The balance and tension between God's sovereignty and essence and that of man's freewill and his essence is extremely high ground that I am not convinced mortal man can entirely comprehend, though we may be able to partly grasp that which we cannot entirely know by experience (God's end). In other words, this is an area where His thoughts and ways are PARTICULARLY higher than ours!! One thing that we must take not to do is put human limitations on God, or attribute Godly knowledge to ourselves. This does not mean that we should not reach for the highest POSSIBLE understanding, but merely to recognize and be humble about our LIMITATIONS.

 

Blessings,

Andy

 

1) How can we say that there is no time with God? Just because He is eternal doesn't mean that there is no succession of time, and I'm not even talking OUR time. There was a point in GOD'S time when He was all alone. You have to agree with me on that. Today God is not alone and forever will not be alone because He has accommodated to bringing us into existence. Is that not a past, present and future for God? God is simply not in a virtual now where everything is happening at once. Christ is not on the cross now. That is past in our time and God's time.

 

2) Exactly and to make these prophesies sure is for GOD a PIECE OF CAKE.

 

3) If God's plan is to create a New Jerusalem, then it is already in His mind what it will look like, dimensions and all, so it is no problem to display that for John.

 

4) This is quite a stretch. I had a vision once in my car just before getting out and going into church. In the vision, somehow I knew I was sitting in my car yet what I was seeing before me was not the dashboard but a big screen like at the movie theater as if I had been transported into a movie theater.

 

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future

 

These plans are already conceived in God's mind but we are not there yet. However God could easily splash them on a screen if He wanted to share them with somebody.

Edited March 23, 2014 by TruthFirst

[nebula]

Well I think so, if God does all things because He knows His own future and sees everything ahead of time. He loses His autonomy or Sovereignty. If He chooses to act sovereignly (I know it’s not a word but bear with me) and change something, it’s not really a change because He knew He would do it in the first place. Where is God’s free will when everything is laid out for Him, in other words he sees it all ahead of time  Himself. If God destroys the earth by fire or by ice what’s the difference? None, the purpose is to get rid of the old to bring in the new. So if God sees ahead of Himself and it’s by fire He can’t change and decide to do by ice. He is trapped in His own foreknowledge.

You say; no god can change and destroy by ice if He wants. Not if He knows everything He is going to do, He just knew He’d change His mind and therefore there is no change and we are back to square one.

This line of thought also devoids God of true meaningful emotion. When God knows eons of years before the time when a sinner is going to commits suicide. How can He be grieved, how can He be hurt at the loss of a precious soul that He wanted to love and bring into eternity?

 

Maybe I should stop here.

 

 

TF, I have been contemplating your line of reasoning, and it just doesn't settle right.

 

What I see here is that you are trying to philosophize the nature of God. But finding truth through philosophy can lead to deception, even though it sounds good. After all, one can justifiably philosophize that their very own existence is an illusion!

 

But I have to reject the premise of your line of reasoning because you are treating "time" by human understanding of time and restricting God to our realm of time. Such a belief places Time above God. Can you justify arguing God being bound to and/or subservient to Time?

 

I dare not try to comprehend God's sovereignty and knowledge, for it indeed is a "great matter" that is beyond me. (Ps. 131).

 

But you, by your philosophy, are claiming the ability to comprehend the mind of God!

[ajchurney]

 

Truth First,

I have attempted to read most of the posts in the thread, but it has gotten quite long quickly and I do not have unlimited time! I have a couple issues with the angle you take here, but I will try to address them singularly so that the exchange is more efficient. The largest issue I have with your approach is that you consistently place 1) God within the continuum of time. All of your theory is dependent upon God being bound in time, having no idea what is going to happen in the future, except by his total knowledge of what has already occurred. Your theory of eternality is limited to extension into infinite possibility of time, but not an existence outside of time, or timelessness. One problem I have with this theory is the EXTENT of biblical prophecy. Between Daniel and Revelation, there is enough sweeping prophecy of major future events, with enough specific details that one would have to conclude that 2) if God does not already exist in our future (if He is timeless), them He would have to CAUSE many, many things to happen in order to make prophesies sure. The problem here is that so many of the prophesies include a great deal of evil things and actions of extremely evil spirits and diabolically influenced people. This creates quite a conundrum for God, doesn't it? God is predicting by Divine "best guess" (better than anyone else's, but still a guess if He does not surely know the future), not by 100% sure, eyewitness account by being there (timeless). So. let's start here, if you would please explain your view, especially in light of 3) John's experience in Revelation, where God is not merely telling John what is going to happen, but literally SHOWING him things to come, even things that are long into the future in Heaven, even SHOWING him new Jerusalem descending from heaven and suchlike. John said that he was "in the spirit" during all of the revelation, and 4) would seem that he was literally taken to the events by the Spirit. How can this happen if the future (to us) simply does not exist yet, even to God Himself? 

 

PS-The balance and tension between God's sovereignty and essence and that of man's freewill and his essence is extremely high ground that I am not convinced mortal man can entirely comprehend, though we may be able to partly grasp that which we cannot entirely know by experience (God's end). In other words, this is an area where His thoughts and ways are PARTICULARLY higher than ours!! One thing that we must take not to do is put human limitations on God, or attribute Godly knowledge to ourselves. This does not mean that we should not reach for the highest POSSIBLE understanding, but merely to recognize and be humble about our LIMITATIONS.

 

Blessings,

Andy

 

1) How can we say that there is no time with God? Just because He is eternal doesn't mean that there is no succession of time, and I'm not even talking OUR time. There was a point in GOD'S time when He was all alone. You have to agree with me on that. Today God is not alone and forever will not be alone because He has accommodated to bringing us into existence. Is that not a past, present and future for God? God is simply not in a virtual now where everything is happening at once. Christ is not on the cross now. That is past in our time and God's time.

 

2) Exactly and to make these prophesies sure is for GOD a PIECE OF CAKE.

 

3) If God's plan is to create a New Jerusalem, then it is already in His mind what it will look like, dimensions and all, so it is no problem to display that for John.

 

4) This is quite a stretch. I had a vision once in my car just before getting out and going into church. In the vision, somehow I knew I was sitting in my car yet what I was seeing before me was not the dashboard but a big screen like at the movie theater as if I had been transported into a movie theater.

 

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future

 

These plans are already conceived in God's mind but we are not there yet. However God could easily splash them on a screen if He wanted to share them with somebody.

 

respectful rebuttals:

1)Your response here is not in response to my points, but only to restate your own. You have told others that they need to try to see things from your point of view. I have always understood time from a human perspective, and frankly that is all you are doing, and then projecting a completely human experiencial view upon God. It is obvious that you are very intelligent, but God is a Spirit, and His thoughts and ways are NOT ours, but our way is the only way you are trying to understand an infinite God. Nebula's post on this point is very good and worth your serious consideration. 

 

2)Shockingly insufficient answer to my points. You make no effort to explain HOW God can so accurately predict future events involving the interaction of miilions upon millions of freewill agents who have not yet even been born. How can God predict the futures of completely unborn people for thousands of years, with billions upon billions of freewill decisions made that affect everythng from births and deaths to marriages and wars and on and on. Remember that your perspective is that the future does not exist at all yet, so even God has NO IDEA of what is going to happen except for the best informed guesses that can be made concerning all of those freewill decisions....unless freewill is a complete illusion and God is the great puppet master pulling the strings. You do not seem like a hyper-sovereignty proponent, but I fail to see how your theory does not force one into that rubric. You need to explain your "piece of cake" much better, perhaps give the recipe, brother!

 

3)The entirety of Revelation seems to be a time-travel experience for John and not a mere open vision. I realize that this is theoretical, as is most of this conversation, but you need to answer sufficiently to point #2 first, as this was another point in support of that. The reason Revelation is so compelling is the scope and details of it. Also the same for Daniel. One would surely be forced into a position of God CAUSING too many wicked and sinful things to happen in order to present such prophesies as 100% accurate. Remember that you are the one proposing that God cannot know the future as it is not knowable, except that He manipulates it or makes REALLY good predictions based upon His exceeding present and past knowledge.

 

4)This is only a stretch from your perspective. Remember that you are the one exhorting people to be open minded and try to see things from the perspective of the other viewpoint. I find it to be no stretch whatsoever for God to show a person a vision as you described OR to take that person "in the spirit" and literally show them what is to come by, in some way, taking their consciousness into the future. Why, this would surely be a "piece of cake" for an Almighty and Eternal God! In this case, it is you who are being narrow and closed minded, not I.

 

The crux of the issue is that you dismiss this perspective (timeless eternal nature) on the basis of logical, natural thinking, and a pretty narrow interpretation of pertinent scriptures. You also seem to assume that most who would not agree with your position are Calvinists, which is also not a fair assessment. I am no Calvinist at all, and Calvin IMHO was more a fatalist and preached predetermination, hyper-sovereign doctrines. I am against all of that. I believe that God can be eternal as proposed, and still be Holy, omniscient, omnipresent, and maintain a genuine freewill in mankind. You have shown me nothing whatsoever that proves your position better than mine. In fact, I believe your position has a fatal flaw in that you cannot aptly explain 100% accurate prophecy in your rubric without going hyper-sovereign

[enoob57]

Truth First,

I have attempted to read most of the posts in the thread, but it has gotten quite long quickly and I do not have unlimited time! I have a couple issues with the angle you take here, but I will try to address them singularly so that the exchange is more efficient. The largest issue I have with your approach is that you consistently place 1) God within the continuum of time. All of your theory is dependent upon God being bound in time, having no idea what is going to happen in the future, except by his total knowledge of what has already occurred. Your theory of eternality is limited to extension into infinite possibility of time, but not an existence outside of time, or timelessness. One problem I have with this theory is the EXTENT of biblical prophecy. Between Daniel and Revelation, there is enough sweeping prophecy of major future events, with enough specific details that one would have to conclude that 2) if God does not already exist in our future (if He is timeless), them He would have to CAUSE many, many things to happen in order to make prophesies sure. The problem here is that so many of the prophesies include a great deal of evil things and actions of extremely evil spirits and diabolically influenced people. This creates quite a conundrum for God, doesn't it? God is predicting by Divine "best guess" (better than anyone else's, but still a guess if He does not surely know the future), not by 100% sure, eyewitness account by being there (timeless). So. let's start here, if you would please explain your view, especially in light of 3) John's experience in Revelation, where God is not merely telling John what is going to happen, but literally SHOWING him things to come, even things that are long into the future in Heaven, even SHOWING him new Jerusalem descending from heaven and suchlike. John said that he was "in the spirit" during all of the revelation, and 4) would seem that he was literally taken to the events by the Spirit. How can this happen if the future (to us) simply does not exist yet, even to God Himself? 

 

PS-The balance and tension between God's sovereignty and essence and that of man's freewill and his essence is extremely high ground that I am not convinced mortal man can entirely comprehend, though we may be able to partly grasp that which we cannot entirely know by experience (God's end). In other words, this is an area where His thoughts and ways are PARTICULARLY higher than ours!! One thing that we must take not to do is put human limitations on God, or attribute Godly knowledge to ourselves. This does not mean that we should not reach for the highest POSSIBLE understanding, but merely to recognize and be humble about our LIMITATIONS.

 

Blessings,

Andy

 

1) How can we say that there is no time with God? Just because He is eternal doesn't mean that there is no succession of time, and I'm not even talking OUR time. There was a point in GOD'S time when He was all alone. You have to agree with me on that. Today God is not alone and forever will not be alone because He has accommodated to bringing us into existence. Is that not a past, present and future for God? God is simply not in a virtual now where everything is happening at once. Christ is not on the cross now. That is past in our time and God's time.

 

2) Exactly and to make these prophesies sure is for GOD a PIECE OF CAKE.

 

3) If God's plan is to create a New Jerusalem, then it is already in His mind what it will look like, dimensions and all, so it is no problem to display that for John.

 

4) This is quite a stretch. I had a vision once in my car just before getting out and going into church. In the vision, somehow I knew I was sitting in my car yet what I was seeing before me was not the dashboard but a big screen like at the movie theater as if I had been transported into a movie theater.

 

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future

 

These plans are already conceived in God's mind but we are not there yet. However God could easily splash them on a screen if He wanted to share them with somebody.

respectful rebuttals:

1)Your response here is not in response to my points, but only to restate your own. You have told others that they need to try to see things from your point of view. I have always understood time from a human perspective, and frankly that is all you are doing, and then projecting a completely human experiencial view upon God. It is obvious that you are very intelligent, but God is a Spirit, and His thoughts and ways are NOT ours, but our way is the only way you are trying to understand an infinite God. Nebula's post on this point is very good and worth your serious consideration. 

 

2)Shockingly insufficient answer to my points. You make no effort to explain HOW God can so accurately predict future events involving the interaction of miilions upon millions of freewill agents who have not yet even been born. How can God predict the futures of completely unborn people for thousands of years, with billions upon billions of freewill decisions made that affect everythng from births and deaths to marriages and wars and on and on. Remember that your perspective is that the future does not exist at all yet, so even God has NO IDEA of what is going to happen except for the best informed guesses that can be made concerning all of those freewill decisions....unless freewill is a complete illusion and God is the great puppet master pulling the strings. You do not seem like a hyper-sovereignty proponent, but I fail to see how your theory does not force one into that rubric. You need to explain your "piece of cake" much better, perhaps give the recipe, brother!

 

3)The entirety of Revelation seems to be a time-travel experience for John and not a mere open vision. I realize that this is theoretical, as is most of this conversation, but you need to answer sufficiently to point #2 first, as this was another point in support of that. The reason Revelation is so compelling is the scope and details of it. Also the same for Daniel. One would surely be forced into a position of God CAUSING too many wicked and sinful things to happen in order to present such prophesies as 100% accurate. Remember that you are the one proposing that God cannot know the future as it is not knowable, except that He manipulates it or makes REALLY good predictions based upon His exceeding present and past knowledge.

 

4)This is only a stretch from your perspective. Remember that you are the one exhorting people to be open minded and try to see things from the perspective of the other viewpoint. I find it to be no stretch whatsoever for God to show a person a vision as you described OR to take that person "in the spirit" and literally show them what is to come by, in some way, taking their consciousness into the future. Why, this would surely be a "piece of cake" for an Almighty and Eternal God! In this case, it is you who are being narrow and closed minded, not I.

 

The crux of the issue is that you dismiss this perspective (timeless eternal nature) on the basis of logical, natural thinking, and a pretty narrow interpretation of pertinent scriptures. You also seem to assume that most who would not agree with your position are Calvinists, which is also not a fair assessment. I am no Calvinist at all, and Calvin IMHO was more a fatalist and preached predetermination, hyper-sovereign doctrines. I am against all of that. I believe that God can be eternal as proposed, and still be Holy, omniscient, omnipresent, and maintain a genuine freewill in mankind. You have shown me nothing whatsoever that proves your position better than mine. In fact, I believe your position has a fatal flaw in that you cannot aptly explain 100% accurate prophecy in your rubric without going hyper-sovereign

They dare not answer because they would have to deal with the true reality of God instead of their more

invented one... Love, Steven

[Mcgyver]

 

I've been following along, and there are several issues that I would like you to explain, as I have a problem with them....(I removed the entire quotation in order to save space and enhance readability)

 

First is this statement:

 

Jesus did not know Peter would deny Him before the cock crowed. Jesus divested Himself of His Glory, Godly attributes (which include omniscience), and received all knowledge and power from the Holy Spirit. He did this to become truly show by His example the it is possible to live a holy life with the Spirit as our guide. The Spirit was the one who empowered Jesus to heal, perform miracles, etc. The Spirit also reveal everything Jesus needed to know about the spirit world or what was lurking in the hearts of men or future knowledge. Jesus by submitting to the Father and living in the Spirit became our perfect example, proof that we can do that same today.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Phil.2:5-7)

 

First of all, I can not see that this is supported scripturally...although certainly it is not the first time that I have heard it.

 

If Jesus divested Himself of any attribute of God, then He is not God...This is Kenosis and was a very early heresy addressed by the early church.

 

He did not "become" God, nor become "empowered" for His ministry at His baptism...His baptism was for the express purpose of revealing to Israel that Messiah had come. John 1:30-32 states: This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”  And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.

 

That God the Son depended on God the Holy Spirit to please God the Father is ludicrous...because all are of one essence...God.

 

John 1:1-14 settles the issue of whether or not Jesus is God.

 

There is however a definite difference between divesting Himself of the attributes of God, and choosing to rather operate within the limitations of the "human experience". Jesus did not divest Himself of anything...He chose to live as a man...but was also fully God.

 

The Hypostatic Union (That Jesus was both fully God and fully man) is foundational to Christianity

 

(Glory of God = the sum total of all His Attributes) multiplied by infinity

I do not deny the Hypostatic union.

Would you agree that those who saw Jesus, saw the Father? The Glory that Jesus displayed was the Glory of the Godhead, which includes the Father.

However we also know that God told Moses you cannot see my Glory less you be consumed. And then again God did show the back of His Glory in the cleft of the rock. But notice what Glory that was as God passed by (Ex. 34:6):

1) Compassionate (Loving)

2) Gracious (Benevolent)

3) Long-suffering (Patient)

4) Good (Loving-kindness)

5) Truth (Just, Holy)

6) Faithful (Covenant trust)

7) Forgiving (Merciful)

Now what is missing in those attributes? The BIG ones, you’re right.

1) Eternal

2) Omniscient

3) Omnipotent

4) Omnipresent

5) Self-Sufficient

6) Immutable

7) Sovereign

So we have 7 that are communicable and 7 that are non- communicable.  Jesus divested Himself of the non-communicable (less we be consumed) and displayed the communicable ones. But also the Glory that Jesus displayed was not His own it was that of the Father, through the Holy Spirit because the Godhead always works in unity. As you quoted, JOHN 1:14 which is great “…and we beheld His Glory, the Glory of the only begotten of the Father,…  HEB. 1:3 “God…has in these last days spoken to us through His Son… who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person.” By doing this in this way Jesus becomes our example and expects us to take that Glory to the nations. But you say; God said He would not share His Glory with anyone.  I say; We are not anyone, we are the Body of Christ. And so Jesus prayed in JOHN 17:22 “The Glory you have given me, I have given them”. How? The Holy Spirit. He produces that glory in us every day. We are called to exhibit those 7 communicable attributes to a dying world. COL. 1:27 “Christ in you the hope of glory”. Many interpret Col. 1:27 as the hope of glory of heaven or our glorious hope in heaven but the context (verse 26-28) would suggest that **With Christ in us we are the hope of glory to the world.**

 

 

Thank you for your answer...

 

I would however submit (that since we agree on the Hypostatic Union) that Jesus did not divest Himself of those attributes, else He would not be God...at best He would have been some sort of "lesser god"...and we know that is not the case.

 

So then, I posit that even though He still retained all the attributes of God, that He simply chose not to exercise certain of those attributes in His advent...and I think you will agree that there is a definite difference between divestment of certain attributes, and not excercising (but at the same time retaining) those same attributes.

 

Thoughts?

[Guest Butero]

Trust First, Thanks for explaining your point of view.  I still don't agree, but sometimes when a person tries to explain their views, they make perfect sense to the one doing the writing, but not others.  I suppose that is the case for me and you at times.  Thanks again for taking the time to write back and explain what you meant. 

 

As for the scripture in question, Jeremiah 32:35, this is rather simple to explain.

 

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech:  which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. 

 

All it means is that God never had it in his mind to instruct the children of Israel to do those things.  It doesn't mean that he didn't create these individual men and women, knowing full well that they would do those things, contrary to his instructions.  I understand your reasoning, but I don't read into the text what you do.  I believe God is in the past, present and future.  He knows everything.