Did God Create Lucifer Evil?

[Guest Butero]

That is fine Enoob.  We all have things going on in our lives that make it impossible to give an immediate response every time.  Since we are the only two people involved in this discussion, that should be no problem, as there won't be page after page to catch up on.  Have a nice visit and may the Lord keep you safe in your journeys. 

[Fez]

Please read the first post! This is a closed debate! Between two members. No one else may comment.

I will delete any others posts made except by the two members involved, so please refrain from doing so.

[enoob57]

I arranged this to address thought numbers and any more improvements you might see to enhance this

organizational nightmare  as you read my comments you can move them into the thoughts in the format

you have started and I the same to your comments (?)

 

BUTERO:  I want it to be clear who is saying what, so I am going to go straight through this post and do it in conversation form, rather than using the quote function.  I will not leave any of your comments out.

 

ENOOB57:  Butero bless your heart leave your mind out of this and receive The Mind of God in this!

He's Holy... He has filled all 'everything' with His Sovereignty of truth unending in eternal past! (How long

is that Butero?)to say evil is necessary for good to be seen you have to contend with the eternal past where

satan was not! Now He creates satan unto the 'all things were done in creation to God's pleasure'

 

Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

KJV

BUTERO:  I am glad you chose that scripture.  It is one I would have injected into the conversation, but rather than focusing on the "and for thy pleasure they are," I want to focus on "for thou hast created all things."  All things means just that, all things.  There is nothing that exists without God.  That would include evil.  All things means all things. 

 

I form the light, and create darkness:  I make peace, and create evil:  I the LORD do all these things.  Isaiah 45:7

ENOOB57: I am glad that we will stay organized in thought! So I will develop these modules of thought with

you as numeric and add to quote module # so that the present reply does not become confused…

I am a little disappointed however- you bypassed my question about eternity passed as it is important in the

reasoning of this build… you see before satan was created there was an eternity of unbound Being given us

by name God! Why this is important -in your premise you say that adversary is a necessary element in our

design of begin… leaving me with the question involving this truth in Scripture

Eph 1:4-5

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,

that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having

predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,

according to the good pleasure of his will,

KJV

Clearly here, before God ever created, we were already began in His Being toward an end by The Holiness

of His Son-> note the presence of good and pleasure within His will! Notice in creation before fall the

presence of very good

Gen 1:31

31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

KJV

but not God's pleasure… I believe this is why:

God Says this

Ezek 28:13-15a

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy

covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the

jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the

workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day

that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou

wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the

midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, (till)

KJV

up to this point in Scripture we have angels singing together in the rejoicing of God's Creation Job 38:7

as creation is finished and His covering Cherub with Him in the garden and God goes into His rest from all His

works. All that God was going to create was complete (angels & Gen 1) and this is where this verse belongs

 

Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou

hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

KJV

Butero the intro to Revelation itself gives me this permission in my reasoning within Scripture!

Rev 1:4

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace,

from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven

Spirits which are before his throne;

KJV,

I believe Lucifer fell on the day of God's rest from all God created… note this statement

Gen 1:29

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is

upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

KJV

There is no prohibition within the trees to eat from! Then in chapter 2 after God's rest there is. God tells us to

rightly divide His Word by study or else we have your dilemma where God's creating evil is also God's

pleasure! I don't believe you want to say this as that would be the heresy of Scripture's intent.

Point for clarity you aren't saying evil gives God pleasure are you?

God conclusively says all His created things give Him pleasure!

The only conclusion can be is to take God literally at His Word about Lucifer's begin created status.

For musing only-> God's freedom from time listed as a day and 1000 years same to Him

now apply that to the creative instance 6 days of creation and where we are 6000 years later we are awaiting

rapture, tribulation- day 7 God rested for 1 day 1000 years millennial kingdom and what is being done to

satan? He is in a bottomless pit falling for the period of 1 day or millennium…

 

ENOOB57:  So all things include Lucifer in his created state of perfection…

Ezek 28:14-15a

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:

thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down

in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways

from the day that thou wast created,

KJV

 

BUTERO:  That only means that Lucifer was perfect in his behavior at the time he was first made.  He appeared

to be a good and beautiful angel, but he was not that way on the inside.  On the inside, there was hidden iniquity. 

 

ENOOB57: It is clearly A Pleased Father Speaking here boasting of His created son

 

BUTERO:  It clearly is not.  God is just telling us how Lucifer appeared when he was first created.

One very notable aspects of learning -whatever is accepted into learning forms whatever else we gain by the

forming of the 'it must be this way' … one must always reason why by the Scripture upon Scripture

If it is of obedience to Scripture's leading it will be of His Word BUT if not then it becomes skewed and mixture

of Word and world returning confusion where clarity should be! God's Sovereignty 'IS' simply that… It is

immoveable, unchangeable, fills all things according to His Will so as the eternity past so will be eternity future

and the 'now' we are commanded to give lie and its fruit no place but that of The Lord Jesus' rebuke of it and

the eternal condemnation it's end… by saying it is creative of God your giving place to satan. Cleary God

Says we should not do this because He hasn't

Eph 4:27

27 Neither give place to the devil.

KJV

Rev 20:11-12

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face

the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books

were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and

the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,

according to their works.

KJV

Your inward demand to give place to the lie and even give it God's creative structure is actually

disobedience to Scripture itself. Any disobedience to God cannot result in a good outcome and any

thought built off of what is not of God's Word is lie. Notice the above verse the creative structure of God

heaven and earth is taken out of the way and the wicked evil will stand before God without any familiarity

to their entire previous existence from their beginning to the now of judgment… and give account of the why

of them and why they did what they did-> I cannot think or imagine a more frightening place in all of eternity

then this place and where they are! Had they not given place to evil like the overwhelming influence of present

earth's leader satan pushes for all to do and the only escape is to give no place to evil by reckoning ourselves

dead to this life and alive unto God's Word and reformation (renewing) of the mind… it is simply understood as

this-> if satan was given access to created resource by selling his first lie and now in his efforts to form lies and

deception in forming a world apart from God then by not giving place to those things as any viable means of

influence to our value system then we reduce the power of satan in our own life… giving him no longer place in our being…

Lie and the fruit of it is moral evil. It is the changing course from that of truth that is what God means here

James 1:17-18

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down

from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of

turning. 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should

be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

KJV

As this is a descriptive aspect of the word of truth no variableness or even hint of shadow in turning from it's

directives and God fills all things with His Truth … Lucifer being created in this reality had only this to work

with- that of truth! So how does one rebel against truth / God… only by denial of the 'IS' and claim what 'is not'.

Which has absolutely no substance of reality to the creative realities of God that fill all of eternity and exist only

in the permissive will of God. As this has absolutely no creative structure of God and it allowance to be shows

forth complete and utter foolishness by giving it place or recognition in one's existence of being!

It is like watching a friend practicing a sin that is killing them and all the while they thinking it is good

and will fight to keep doing it until that death is accomplished. We, all that know God, have practiced sins & in

being delivered from the power of the lie are totally dumb founded by the complete and utter stupidity that was

in it… as lie was not a part of God and it's fruit the perversion of life there is no created place in the original

creation in which God made everything thus God creates evil which is death as eternal separation from Him

in a place where only His wrath will abide for all eternity! In the day you eat -you will die- God created death

and also calamity by curse it was not before the disobedience and God created entropy, death, suffering,

sorrows, etc…

 

ENOOB57: TILL You say God created this in satan

 

BUTERO:  I never said that.  I said iniquity was on the inside of Lucifer from the beginning, but it wasn't manifested.

 

ENOOB57:  God says it is not His created format as all things God made for His pleasure!

God clearly separates Himself from this same creation eternally by(hell)

and He has no pleasure in this death of the wicked

Ezek 33:11a

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the

death of the wicked;

KJV

Now as simple as it gets God makes a complete statement all things I created

for my pleasure. Where did the no pleasure come from?

 

BUTERO:  God is saying he has no pleasure in the "death of the wicked."  Angels don't die.  He is not speaking of angels but men.  Notice what it says in Matthew 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.  Hell was not created for people, and God doesn't take pleasure in sending people to hell, but that doesn't mean he won't do it.  As a matter of fact, God says just the opposite.  Men are created in the image and likeness of God.  I'll bet that it doesn't pleasure him sending men to hell to be tormented forever, but he does.  BTW, do you consider hell a bad place?  Would you say an all loving God would create such a place of torment, and then send people to live there for eternity?  He did just that.  Why is it so hard for you to imagine he would create evil beings like Satan? 

There is no question that God himself is holy and righteous.  That is all he will ever be.  That doesn't mean he is not capable of creating a being that is the opposite of everything he stands for to show us a contrast between good and evil.  As a matter of fact, God did just that.  It was God that created Lucifer.  Once again, lets look at what it would mean if you are correct and God didn't create Lucifer with iniquity on the inside of him, and if God didn't know all along what Lucifer would become.  It would mean God created a defective angel.  Since 1/3 of all the angels rebelled with Lucifer, it would mean God created 1/3 of the angels defective.  It would mean that God is not all knowing, because he was completely taken by surprise by what Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels did.  This is the same God that knows how many hairs are on each person's head.  You are concerned that my position somehow goes against the character of God, but I would contend that your position limits God's power.  The Bible states that with God, nothing shall be impossible, and you want us to believe that such a mighty God screwed up and created defective angels and didn't see what they were going to do.  I just cannot accept that.

I cannot agree with your assessment of death as I see it only as the separation from that which 'IS' Life / God!

That covers all beings created by God and are eternally separated called second death…

I see hell as the only loving thing that can be done for a heart of rebellion formed from sin into moral evil…

God did not create satan an evil being … God created him perfect and passed all the testing of what perfect

beings are shown able before a Holy God and His Throne as God has said so

Ezek 28:14-15

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:

thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and

down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways

from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

KJV

I hate to state the most obvious point of this Scripture but you have forced me into this statement :

One does not find what One has placed purposefully into… and it would be misrepresenting what is said to

reason otherwise… this statement above is an accounting from the Heart of God that satan has chosen for

himself that which he has become and God has no pleasure in it! Never the less God sovereignty stands…

Butero until you realize that iniquity is not a created element of God and is merely a choice of determined

being -turning away from the only life, truth and way of God you will remain confused within your own

reasoning… this is not complicated it is as we- we can choose to accept God and His Ways over our own

and live in the perfection of His Ways or remain with satan in the error of his! God's sovereignty of giving

choice to His created is just that sovereignly given period… we do not have need to defend God's sovereignty

in what God sovereignly does. God is not in competition with power He simply is the only One who has any!

All else just use His power as He dictates by His Will to do so. Our acceptance of what we can or cannot

believe has absolutely no effect to the truth but resides in the sovereignty of God without end.

 

Butero, on 29 Mar 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

When God is speaking of the devil, and saying that the devil is the Father of a lie and the truth is not in him, he is speaking only of his created being, the devil.  God is not a liar, but Satan, whom God created is.  God created the devil to be the exact opposite of himself.  Everything God is, the devil is the exact opposite. 

BTW, I am not buying into your blasphemy against the Holy Spirit nonsense.

ENOOB57: So attributing the works of God to satan is the act of blaspheming The Holy Spirit {is not the

inverse of} by attributing the works of satan to God the same? There an eternal separation between God

and satan / God's Ways and satan's ways as light and dark, Holy and unholy etc…

ENOOB57:  God made angels and they are sons of God; God made us we are sons of God;

John 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because

there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:

for he is a liar, and the father of it.

KJV

How By The Holy Spirit did Jesus call satan a father?

 

BUTERO:  I was going to go into what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is, but then I realized that would be one of those rabbit trails we are not supposed to go off on, so I won't.  What I will say is that God did not say Satan was a "father."  He called him the father of a lie.  Big difference.

I would reread that verse again if I were you… "ye are of your father the devil" Christ is saying they were

of satan their father->for they followed the lies of satan and were just like him

 

 

 

Butero, on 29 Mar 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

It is true that God was speaking of Israel and the gentiles, however, God was giving examples, and those examples were real.  God did create Pharoah, and raised him up to show his power.  That was a real man that God created to oppose Moses.  While we are at it, God also created Janis and Jambrees to oppose Moses.  God hardened Pharoah's heart so he wouldn't give in to the demands of Moses until God was done showing his power.  God hardened his heart again so he would go after Moses and have his army destroyed in the Red Sea.  God created Jacob and Esau to be the men they were and prophesied of their future before they were born.  One was a vessel of honor and one a vessel of dishonor.  No, they were not both created as vessels of honor but one went bad.  That's absurd.  God created Judas Iscariot knowing he would be the betrayer.  He was a vessel of dishonor.  No, he was not a vessel of honor gone bad.  God even told how he would betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver and later cast the money away and hang himself, and it was even foretold that the money would purchase the Potter's field.  There is no way that any of this was an accident.  God creates some vessels of honor and some of dishonor, which means he creates some people good and some evil.  He did the same thing with the angels.  He created 2/3 to be his loyal servants, and Lucifer and 1/3 to rebel.

ENOOB57:  All are sinners, Moses, pharaoh, all, and God is working in Righteousness, in Sovereignty, causing sin to frame into itself the

non created substance of rebellion against what is... death in eternal separation from God! God fills all that is created with

His Truth how then is there lie-> this is the very fabric of lie it has no created element but rest solely upon truth to exist...

Clearly your reasoning is skewed till you answer this question

God created all things for His pleasure

 Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:

for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and

were created.

KJV

Where did God's no pleasure come from?

Ezek 33:11a

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the

death of the wicked;

KJV

 

BUTERO:  I already answered it, meaning my reasoning isn't skewed.

There is a whole lot of need to contextualize Scripture! God is speaking from a completely pure and Holy

place to a total of sinners. Your view of Pharaoh is skewed because you have overridden God's sovereign creative design

of choice so that what God has created in all men as no respect of person you have removed from Pharaoh to fit your

theology... We can develop this thought more if you like.

 

 

Again, lets examine this logically.  According to you, God thought he was creating a beautiful, wonderful and righteous angel when he made Lucifer.  He thought all the other angels were perfect and righteous.  He had no idea that one day down the road, Lucifer would lead a rebellion of 1/3 of the angels and they would turn on him.  He made defective angels. 

ENOOB57: Please show me where I have said that?

BUTERO: On top of that, where did iniquity come from?  Remember that Lucifer was a creation of

God.  Remember that all the angels are a creation of God.  That means that for better or worse, they were

whatever God, the master potter fashioned them to be.  If God didn't place the iniquity in Lucifer when he made him, where did it come from?  While we are at it, it is my contention that God created evil.  That is not even hard to prove, considering that Lucifer is the Father of evil, and God created him.  To accept what you are saying, that would mean God makes mistakes.  It would mean God is not all powerful.  It would mean God doesn't know everything.  If God didn't know what Lucifer was going to do back then, how can he predict what he will do in the future?  We have all these prophetic words about the anti-Christ and about Satan leading an army against God, and how he will be bound for 1000 years.  How is it God can know all of that, but didn't know what Lucifer would do in the beginning?  It doesn't make any logical sense.

ENOOB57: first God says our reasoning will only go so far and there we are required to wait upon Him to

increase us so we may continue in His Reason… I am willing to give glory in God this way aren't you? God

simply states He 'IS' and there is no other like Him -> He does whatever pleases Him in the satisfaction of His

Righteous, Holy, Immutable ways. In His Way He has created angels that can choose to operate outside of His

desires for them but He created all things to reflect His Glory and in their original create they were listed as

very good, perfect, all to God's pleasure… Where does iniquity come from? It comes from satan own error as

he rebelled against God He essentially rebelled against all created purpose and against God's Own Person…

He became, by the sovereignly created God given choice, an adversary to God but in ordeer for satan to do, this he became death instead of life, hate instead of love, selfish instead of selfless, liar instead of truth sayer,

unholy instead of holy, taker instead of giver, morally evil instead of pure, on an on an on … man who serves

him becomes him as we are just vessels given choice to repent and be filled with the things of God or

remain filled with evil till no voice of God is ever heard again till judgment… As to the sovereignty it has not

been in the least threatened or moved in the any iota but God has no pleasure in the direction man or fallen

angel has chosen man can still repent and turn to God for redemption angels cannot. It is why I asked you the

question if God created all things to His Pleasure and your view of what God's Sovereignty is all things then

must be His Pleasure by that Sovereignty (YET) by God's Own Testimony their exist a no pleasure reality

leaving only one understanding it is something that is not a creative of God and is outside the bounds of His

creative pleasure… and satan is the father of its origin!

BUTERO:  You didn't say it directly, but that is exactly what your position means.  Are you going to acknowledge that God didn't think he was creating a "beautiful, wonderful and righteous angel when he made Lucifer?"  Are you going to admit that God didn't think that Lucifer and the 1/3 of the angels that rebelled with him "were perfect and righteous," and acknowledge that God had to know they would eventually turn on him because he created them to do just that?  What exactly is your purpose in asking me that question?  Does this go against your position?  If so, how?

God did create all things perfect, very good, in completeness of His Holy Pleasure! And God says so

Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for

thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

KJV

even the world though many go into destruction His pleasure through sovereignty remains intact by the work

of His Son

Heb 1:2-3

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath

appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who

being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by

himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

KJV

I have explained that foreknowledge is not causal it is merely The One Aspect of The Infinite set that make up

Who of our God … His sovereignty of Being has no considerations to anything but for His Own perfect ways ->

for He alone rules when He gives choice He has done so in outcome with only the choosing being the bearer

of that choice eternally sovereignly protecting that sovereignty of original design by election using

foreknowledge in an undefined way… but outside scope of this debate

 

 

ENOOB57:  You are making foreknowledge causal and removing the Sovereignty of God by removing created choice...

You cannot answer this Scripture can you

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;

but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that

all should come to repentance.

KJV

Will there be those who perish that God was not willing to have perish?

 

BUTERO:  What he is saying is that God made a way where anyone could in theory be saved.  The problem is that not everyone will be saved because there will be those who are given spiritual blindness.  Jesus said he spoke in parables so the scripture would be fulfilled that seeing they won't see and hearing they won't hear.  Using your logic, why wouldn't Jesus want them to hear and understand so they could be saved?  In addition to that, if God is not willing that any should perish in the way you are saying it, why do some perish?  The fact of the matter is, he is only saying that he made a way for anyone to be saved.  They have to believe on Jesus and accept him as their Lord and Savior.  We know that not everyone will do that because God didn't choose to save everyone.  matthew 20:16b "...for many be called, but few chosen."  The whole world is called, but we know the whole world won't be saved.  Few are chosen.  Few are pre-destinated to be saved.  Straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it. 

 

Butero, on 29 Mar 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

On the one hand, if you accept my premise, God knows all things and makes no mistakes.  God created Lucifer knowing full well he would one day rebel against him and lead a rebellion among 1/3 of the angels.  It was God's plan all along.  On the other hand, if I accept your premise, God created defective angels.  He had no idea what they were going to do.  The God that sees a sparrow when it falls didn't see the rebellion coming.  He flat out messed up.  Iniquity sprung up in Lucifer out of nowhere.  God thought he made him good and perfect, but he was wrong.  Don't you see how weak that makes God look?  I understand that from your vantage point, you believe you are defending God's character, but in order to do so, you are making him look weak.  It comes down to an all powerful God who created everything that exists, and nothing took him by surprise.  He created good and evil, or God is imperfect and makes mistakes.  He is not all powerful, and doesn't know everything.  I choose to believe God is all powerful, and there is no way he could have made the kind of mistake it would have taken to create Lucifer, thinking he would remain good and loyal, only to have iniquity spring up in him and have him lead a rebellion.

ENOOB57:  God's sovereignty is just that God's and it is as He dictates through His Word how that

sovereignty works out into eternity... God Sovereignly gave created choice to His creation as the

evident 'IS' all around us yet in that same sovereignty of created choice is eternal outcome by that

choice of either of God in agreement with The Word (truth) or against by the word of satan (lie)...

As God Himself gives witness he created all things for His pleasure the question must be answered

where did the no pleasure come from?

 

BUTERO:  I already answered that question.

 

No you skirted it In your view of what sovereignty is and how it is employed by God should, if kept pure

and consistent with stated belief, believe by this verse

Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:

for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

KJV

That all that is created brings God pleasure! Right? Nothing exists that do not bring Him pleasure! Right?

Showing the other verse

Ezek 33:11

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death

of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

KJV

and by these verses alone in reconciling a unity of truth in them leaves only an occurrence not

of God's creation that is displeasing in its actual… which does not allow for your idea of what God's sovereignty is.

 

BUTERO:

As I said, I am 100 percent convinced God knew exactly what Lucifer was going to become when he made him, simply because God is all knowing and all powerful.  At the same time, I do want to add this one disclaimer.  Job's friends all thought they knew all about God and his creation and his mighty works and were wrong in all of their conclusions.  Since neither of us were there when God actually created Lucifer, and we have not had the privilege to have a meeting with God face to face to get his exact account of the events that took place, there is a good chance that we could both be missing the mark in our conclusions. Just something to think about.

ENOOB57:  I think that we have in Isaiah 6 accounting of being before God's Presence... Isaiah testimony

was all that he was, 'was' unclean and all where he was 'from' was unclean and this is a heart able to

receive Christ (full repentance)... look at the difference of satan who stood before God justifying himself a

heart completely sealed by its own rebellion and evil…

This added later to clear up intent of meaning- my point was the utter and complete non value of surroundings

and self when Isaiah was brought into the presence of God is the difference of the elective heart and satan and

his children's nonelective hearts- note after satan's lying to Eve and causing the fall of man He stills stands before God at the time of Job pointing fingers but not at himself!

 

BUTERO:  First of all, the section in this "quote" that is not in black is something you obviously added.  I just want that stated for the record in case someone may think I spoke those words to make a point, or think you highlighted those points that I supposedly made to make a point.  Those are your words.

I can't make any sense of them. 

ENOOB57: I fixed it above sorry won't do that anymore added further explanation above.

ENOOB57:  I need Scripture based reasoning- you keep going into rational philosophies I need Scripture to be shown other...

God gives no place to lie-> neither is God the father of lies but satan is... knowledge is not causal it is

simply knowing all that is! As lie 'IS' nothing to Him in His Holy Place! I have given you Scripture

where God has absolutely nothing to do with >in any way shape or form < sin! Now the burden is for you to

produce Scripture that says otherwise... Your whole reasoning is skewed by giving place to lie as a substance

to reckon with it! When in fact it is a non creative form of the perversion of [creative substance= God does

claim as His! that which is perfect]

 

BUTERO:  God created Lucifer, knowing full well that Lucifer had a defect, iniquity.  God is not the Father of a lie, but his creation, Lucifer or Satan is.  That doesn't make God less holy and it doesn't make him a liar.  It means his creation is a liar.  One thing you will never be able to explain away is where Lucifer came from.  God made him.  God made the Father of a lie.  God fashioned him.  There is no denying that.  You are claiming that somehow God created Lucifer in perfection, and somehow Lucifer developed iniquity out of thin air, taking God by surprise.  That would mean God is not all knowing, and that he is not able to create a perfect product, in this case an angel.  He would be no better than a person who creates an automobile thinking it is perfect, only to find out later on it has defects and must be recalled.  God doesn't make mistakes. 

 

ENOOB57:  Eph 4:25-32

25 Therefore, putting away lying, "Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,

" for we are members of one another. 26 "Be angry, and do not sin": do not let the sun

go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. God doesn't!

The  only place is eternal separation with only God's abiding wrath... 28 Let him who stole

steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may

have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth,

but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of

redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away

from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one

another, even as God in Christ forgave you

NKJV

Look it is heresy flat out to say evil originated in God or else show it to me in Scripture please! Love, Steven

 

BUTERO:  I could just as easily call it heresy to claim God is not all knowing, and created imperfect angels, having no idea they would turn on him.  It is beyond heresy.  It is pure lunacy to me.  Even so, those kind of comments serve no useful purpose.  Since you said please...

 

I form the light and create darkness:  I make peace and create evil:  I the LORD do all these things.  Isaiah 45:7

 

God has a purpose for evil as well as good. 

 

He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.  Psalm 78:49

 

Who sent evil angels against the Egyptians?  The Lord.  God's ways are not our ways.  They are higher.

Maybe this way you can understand where I am at in this- God created Lucifer perfect and in that perfection

he had abilities of highest created being aspects… these aspects or gifts from God were of perfect nature

because they were all formed from God and to deny this is to deny

Ezek 28:15b

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created

KJV

God's own testimony of Lucifer's created state…Using the Hebrew word

Now in this created perfect state was sovereignty of God's will in Lucifer to have his own volition of will as this

to was a perfect created state according to God's Word. So when Lucifer changed his focus from God who

made him tamiym and became the serpent a subtle crafty deceptive being ( Adam & Eve), the dragon a

brutally cruel and bloody being (look what he did to Job), the devil a slander to all he comes into contact with

(look at the war between people and nations), the satan a contemptuous being of endless adversarial produce

(the world and tribulation) there is absolutely no way that could have come out of God's statement He was

perfect…

Now the Isaiah 45:7 passage I have already talked about it is the death, entropy of all things, the creation is in

a state of groaning from this created evil=calamity=curse

Rom 8:22-23

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together

until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of

the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption,

to wit, the redemption of our body.

KJV

It is God turning evil back upon itself… notice how those who practice moral evil get more and more perverse.

Seen in progression in Romans 1:18-32 and more over stated directly in this

Matt 7:2

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure

ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

KJV

As God directs Holiness is to turn the other cheek yet in this created evil by God evil is turned into itself

and becomes it own judge… it is the function of increased perversion till death itself is accomplished.

Edited April 2, 2014 by enoob57

[Guest Butero]

Hello Enoob.  I don't have time tonight to address your post properly.  I do appreciate the thought you put into it, and I don't want to just rush through and give you a quick answer.  I want to take a little time when I get home to take a closer look at exactly what you are saying, and then go through it section by section.  The reason I am writing you tonight is because I have a quick follow up question I want to ask you, to see if I can understand you better.  You obviously believe in free will, so my question is involving that.  Do you believe that the angels still have free will?  Do the 2/3 of the angels that continue to follow God have free will, or could they potentially go rogue, like that angel did in the movie "Michael?"  Do you believe we will have free will in heaven?  Once we get there, is it possible we could rebel down the road and then be cast out like the devil and his angels were?  In other words, could a man or woman who is saved today make it to heaven, and then a million or so years down the road decide they no longer want to serve God, and lead a revolt?  Could a heart that was made pure become full of iniquity by and by on its own because we are given free will?  I will try to check back on the weekend and read your response to these questions, and then go through your other post. 

 

Have a great night Enoob, and I am glad you made it back safely from your visit. 

[enoob57]

You obviously believe in free will, so my question is involving that.  Do you believe that the angels still have free will?

I believe the angels were in the fullness of revelation of God given and as they turned or stayed as they utilized

their given right to determined right by choice they employed that which they willed to follow!

                                        Either of Truth (God) or lie (satan)... for

when the fullness of God is revealed that should shrink all that are created to that of nothingness by that of apparent

truth to all as (I) began-> therefore I am not causal but caused and that which has caused me 'IS' by that evidence of fact

greater no matter the influence that might come against that truth! God is still there in fullness but I no longer can assess

that truth because of the falsehood I have attached myself to... taking in lie as a vessel we are no longer in the fullness of His

Truth but in a place of reduction by lie! For is not God in all places? And as this place has appearance of existing yet the

truth by God's Word is that it 'IS' not of His Word but lie... and no place should be given it but only of that which God is giving

it that of the lake of fire and only The Presence of God's Wrath without end...

 

Do the 2/3 of the angels that continue to follow God have free will, or could they potentially go rogue, like that angel did in the movie "Michael?"

Seeing how the work of satan is to give us desire to be antigod thus accomplishing the

desire within that antigodness to not be with God... the angels observing The Work of

God in His Son on The Cross and sealing the demise of satan by the who, what, where, and

why of him in the glorious light of Jesus... permits a better question why would they desire to?

 

Do you believe we will have free will in heaven?

I believe the work God has began in us and has sealed us by His very Own presence 'God The Holy Spirit',

God will keep Himself forever with Him so as by His Presence

John 14:16-17

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter,

that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom

the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him:

but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

KJV

is within me so I am... so as I leave this place that which remains will only be that which prevented me

from being as near to Him as possible! It will be a release to greater not a loss... to die is gain!

So the day I am in I choose to be but the same so He 'IS' within me choosing me before I ever was...

 

Once we get there, is it possible we could rebel down the road and then be cast out like the devil and his angels were?

That which is born out from satan so it will be forever kept in the presence of God's wrath... we are not children any

longer of His Wrath so we will be kept eternally from His Wrath by not being children of it!

The issue you struggle with in your logic of How can an all knowing God create that which will rebel by known result

and be totally apart from that choice of rebellion when all things are brought into being by His sovereignty. The

answer to this is simple it is found in that which God 'IS' keeping and that which is not of His keeping!

Here is the warning of God in this place of reason we are together in-Rom 9

As it compiles all of mankind seeking Him not to contain questions formed from the first birth

being brought before Him but that only of His Word and the desire to not encompass but to draw

nearer to the beauty of His Pleasure...

I will testify of the spiritual work that is being performed in me of this passage.

It is God saying in the utmost of what we are made able to understand of the truths

of Scripture about the Who of Me(God) bring here to this place of My Sovereignty- Rom 9

These are the truths we bring found in the Scripture

1. God loves all His creation with the Love that He 'IS'.

2. God elected out before anything the unique as us in His Purposed thoughts by a undefined foreknowledge in predestination.

3. In all God's creation when He had accomplished that creation was of His Essence determined perfect.

4. All of what God 'IS' cannot be altered for He 'IS' all that there is as Himself without created existence and boundary!

5. He has sovereignly created beings with a determined will by choice (angels) and His Own by image (man-> divided as male and female).

6. Lucifer was the highest created being but by use of God's things given him and by his given determined will used those things to rebel against God.

7. The Eternity is set as originally purposed by God unaltered in eternal purpose of separation of Love and wrath within His Own Being.

8. Love and that formed by it will be the eternal life that 'IS' in God no longer alone but also the determined choice as His Will within our will also ...

    (The Eternal state is defined by marriage of Born again with The Son so then God forms that which was One into Two male and female but then when

      this pattern is joined once again by God forming One... so we see The Son On His Throne & we The Wife before Him in Love and adoration for all eternity...

Love, Steven

Edited April 6, 2014 by enoob57

[Guest Butero]

Hello Enoob.  I have finally had time to go back through your last two posts.  There is no reasonable way I can go through that one section by section, because it would be so long, nobody would get anything from it.  It would like take up an entire page.  What I am going to do is give a general reply to what I get from your posts, and then you can tell me if I am taking you right or wrong, and you can also tell me if there are any specific points you want me to address.  It is my opinion that we would do better to make our posts shorter.  It is not like we have to rush through this. 

 

I really don't see where either of us have budged in the least in our original positions.  We both have the same scriptures.  We just don't see them as saying the same thing.  For instance, when you mentioned Ephesians 1:4,5, I believe he is speaking to the redeemed, not everyone, so I don't believe this means that it is God's will that everyone be saved.  If it was God's will that everyone be saved, they would be saved.  If he created us in a way where we can choose to serve him or not to serve him, and he knows some will not, obviously it is not God's will to save everyone. 

 

Lets go back to Lucifer, and our disagreement.  If Lucifer was created to be an angel that leads in worship in heaven, and it was God's will that he be perfect and continue as a good angel, he would have continued as a good angel.  We both acknowledge that there was a time when iniquity was found in Lucifer, and he led a rebellion against God.  The disagreement is over how the iniquity got there.  It is my position that everything that exists is a creation of God.  Nothing comes from nothing.  That would include iniquity.  It has to begin somewhere, which means iniquity has to have a creator.  You claim Lucifer became full of iniquity on his own, which would mean that Lucifer has the power to create.  God would be the creator of good, and Lucifer would be the creator of evil.  That makes Lucifer more powerful than I believe he is, and God less powerful than I believe he is.  How exactly did Lucifer create iniquity out of nothing?  That makes no sense to me.  Even if he had free will to decide what he wanted to do, iniquity is a creation.  Where did it come from? 

 

Now, lets look at my question to you about free will in heaven.  I asked you if a Christian could make it to heaven, still have free will, have iniquity pop up in him or her, and lead a rebellion, only to be cast out of heaven?  You asked why would they?  I would ask the same thing of Lucifer and the third of the angels.  They were in heaven too.  That never addressed my question.  My question is could it happen?  How about the remaining angels?  Could they still choose to follow the devil?  Your reasoning doesn't answer that question.  I wasn't asking if it is likely they would, but if they could?  It makes no sense to say Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels had free will to rebel, but nobody has that ability anymore.  At the same time, if you are claiming that we will still have free will in heaven, that means nobody has any assurance of lasting salvation. 

 

Here are my conclusions on our disagreement:

 

1.  I believe God is the creator of all things, including evil.  You believe that Lucifer created evil, meaning he has creative powers along with God.

 

2.  I believe that God is in full control of his creation.  You believe God makes mistakes, and sometimes creates things that are not perfect.  I believe that God created the devil knowing he would become an adversary.  You believe God created the devil without the knowledge he would become an adversary.

 

3.  I believe that if the devil and 1/3 of the angels have free will and ability to rebel in heaven, that means every person that is in heaven and the remaining 2/3 of the angels have the ability to rebel.  You believe that the devil and 1/3 of the angels had that free will, but Christians and the rest of the angels do not. 

 

Your positions make no logical sense to me. 

[enoob57]

I really don't see where either of us have budged in the least in our original positions.  We both have the same scriptures.  We just don't see them as saying the same thing.  For instance, when you mentioned Ephesians 1:4,5, I believe he is speaking to the redeemed, not everyone, so I don't believe this means that it is God's will that everyone be saved.  If it was God's will that everyone be saved, they would be saved.  If he created us in a way where we can choose to serve him or not to serve him, and he knows some will not, obviously it is not God's will to save everyone.

Clearly God's Word was written to all who can read. And it's Gospel, the heart and core of it's life and purpose,

was to be published to all of mankind! When we rightly divide the Word in context of, yet, this does not exclude

any who come to pages seeking God! One of the guards we must station at our hearts door is the manipulation of

God's sovereignty within our own reason. So when God in all of His endless perfect attributes has elected out on

the basis of an undefined foreknowledge In God's Councils before any of God's creative acts of 'IS'... We should

be careful to follow only where His Word takes us in this and I will show you what I believe is the knowable path

to where it goes out of sight

1 Peter 1:1-5

    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia,

Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus

Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our

Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a

lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,4 To an inheritance

incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in

the last time.

KJV

As this becomes the inseparable election/foreknowledge defined in Jesus Love for all the world when He came into it!

And it is directly proportional to that of Jesus The Christ Himself

1 Peter 1:20

20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last

times for your sake,

ESV

Acts 2:22-23

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by

miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves

also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,

ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

KJV

Rom 11:33-36

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are

His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord?

Or who has become His counselor?"

35 'Or who has first given to Him

And it shall be repaid to him?"

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

NKJV

Col 1:25-29

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to

me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages

and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make

known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ

in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man

in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29 Whereunto I also

labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

KJV

This path of elective foreknowledge whom we preach is to every man "as the great commission"

clearly stated by God

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is

longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

KJV

 

Lets go back to Lucifer, and our disagreement.  If Lucifer was created to be an angel that leads in worship in heaven, and it was God's will that he be perfect and continue as a good angel, he would have continued as a good angel.  We both acknowledge that there was a time when iniquity was found in Lucifer, and he led a rebellion against God.  The disagreement is over how the iniquity got there.  It is my position that everything that exists is a creation of God.  Nothing comes from nothing.  That would include iniquity.  It has to begin somewhere, which means iniquity has to have a creator.  You claim Lucifer became full of iniquity on his own, which would mean that Lucifer has the power to create.  God would be the creator of good, and Lucifer would be the creator of evil.  That makes Lucifer more powerful than I believe he is, and God less powerful than I believe he is.  How exactly did Lucifer create iniquity out of nothing?  That makes no sense to me.  Even if he had free will to decide what he wanted to do, iniquity is a creation.  Where did it come from?

We've already discussed this... why is it your understanding of God's sovereignty is not combined with His created image?

Or do you believe the image of God is not a complete image of Himself and where do you find that?

Iniquity is began in lie and satan is the father of it... there is no creation but perversion of

that which is already established and filling all eternity 'TRUTH OF GOD'... a lie has no source

in God -For God 'IS' only Truth!!!! You are to give no place for lies and only reason in truth

"God's Word 'IS' truth"

 

Now, lets look at my question to you about free will in heaven.  I asked you if a Christian could make it to heaven, still have free will, have iniquity pop up in him or her, and lead a rebellion, only to be cast out of heaven?  You asked why would they?  I would ask the same thing of Lucifer and the third of the angels.  They were in heaven too.

Your question might be valid except it is outside of the created order of reason... Look satan and angels were

given the ability to take note of externals and God lifted satan up to the highest position possible 'the covering cherub'

and gave him ability to radiate the glory of God back upon God with added creative ability given him... taking note of

this wonder God bestowed upon him he fell by his own reordering of reason and bore the first title of thief for he stole

that which belonged solely for the purpose of God's Glory and kept it for himself as his own-> thus as the yeast of the sin of

lie it quickly spread to murder by proclaiming his right to be God by his person and abilities to other angels which believed

the lie and fell with him... you see this order taught by The Lord here

John 10:10

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:

I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

KJV

God has said that hell will have only God's wrath the eternal punishment of... we are not children of

God's wrath thus sealed by God's Spirit to the eternal love so there is no permission of God to fall

once we are in the eternal state for there is no sin-> nor has it ever been considered... it will have

the power of complete and utter holiness in the full presence of God The Father, Son and Holy Spirit...

sin has no place in God's eternity but that of God's Wrath!

Listen God 'IS' Holy and Pure and has no part with evil and just as God judged Adam from dust thou art

and to dust thou shalt return so also satan from evil thou art and to evil thou shalt be kept... note

that which you cannot answer

Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,

ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

KJV

You see Butero God never created hell for people and no where in Scripture can you find that God

predestined them to there! So really the burden of proof lies on you to produce other...

 

That never addressed my question.  My question is could it happen?  How about the remaining angels?  Could they still choose to follow the devil?  Your reasoning doesn't answer that question.  I wasn't asking if it is likely they would, but if they could?  It makes no sense to say Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels had free will to rebel, but nobody has that ability anymore.  At the same time, if you are claiming that we will still have free will in heaven, that means nobody has any assurance of lasting salvation.

Listen you don't have the right to reason apart from Scripture

and you are clearly, perhaps unbeknownst to you, you are!

God says about the New Jerusalem -the city of the eternal state

Rev 21:27

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh

abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

KJV

nothing can enter to defile it so says The Word Of The Lord...

 

Here are my conclusions on our disagreement:

 

1.  I believe God is the creator of all things, including evil.  You believe that Lucifer created evil, meaning he has creative powers along with God.

Again you are giving place to satan and his lies which has no created place by God but hell dumping into lake of eternal fire...

 

2.  I believe that God is in full control of his creation.  You believe God makes mistakes, and sometimes creates things that are not perfect.  I believe that God created the devil knowing he would become an adversary.  You believe God created the devil without the knowledge he would become an adversary.

No I challenge you to produce that claim

"You believe God created the devil without the knowledge he would become an adversary."

I have said (till I am almost blue) that God's Knowing all things is not causal...

Your idea and what God teaches us in His Word are at odds... your demand of God sovereignty to fit within

your reason does not jive with How God has done... God sovereignly has created as we are told by Him as we

were not there and in The foundation of Word we see God claiming the perfect, as His Own source of

perfection, so stamped upon Lucifer in His created state... and the literary writ supports this in the

hermeneutical examination! As long as you see God in need of evil or sourcing adversarial lie to increase

His Glory you are not seeing the God that I Worship and Adore with The Holy Spirit of God within me!!! For

He is so separate from sin that when the sin was put upon His Son in the Cross- God The Father became

separate from His Own Son so testified by The Word of The Son-> Jesus referenced God as His Father every

where in Scripture except at the end when He received the sin of the world upon Himself and then referred

to The Holy Father as My God, My God why hast Thou forsaken me and yet in the account of Luke we see even

after separation of Himself from The Father -His Own sovereignty laid aside- into The Holiness of His Father

commended He into that keeping of perfect holiness and justice combined in that instance by Jesus very last

Words of perfection

Luke 23:46-47

46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said,

"Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.'"

Having said this, He breathed His last. 47 So when the centurion

saw what had happened, he glorified God, saying, "Certainly this

was a righteous Man!"

NKJV

 

3.  I believe that if the devil and 1/3 of the angels have free will and ability to rebel in heaven, that means every person that is in heaven and the remaining 2/3 of the angels have the ability to rebel.  You believe that the devil and 1/3 of the angels had that free will, but Christians and the rest of the angels do not. 

 

Your positions make no logical sense to me.

I'm glad... God says is not with the ability of our capable reason do we believe but

with 'Thus sayeth The Lord' and I have Joy unspeakable and full of Glory because of

this... I can give you testimony of my family here that this is my one most remarkable

trait that I have been given by The Lord and they are witnesses of it nearly everyday

Love, Steven

Edited April 7, 2014 by enoob57

[Guest Butero]

 

I really don't see where either of us have budged in the least in our original positions.  We both have the same scriptures.  We just don't see them as saying the same thing.  For instance, when you mentioned Ephesians 1:4,5, I believe he is speaking to the redeemed, not everyone, so I don't believe this means that it is God's will that everyone be saved.  If it was God's will that everyone be saved, they would be saved.  If he created us in a way where we can choose to serve him or not to serve him, and he knows some will not, obviously it is not God's will to save everyone.

Clearly God's Word was written to all who can read. And it's Gospel, the heart and core of it's life and purpose,

was to be published to all of mankind! When we rightly divide the Word in context of, yet, this does not exclude

any who come to pages seeking God! One of the guards we must station at our hearts door is the manipulation of

God's sovereignty within our own reason. So when God in all of His endless perfect attributes has elected out on

the basis of an undefined foreknowledge In God's Councils before any of God's creative acts of 'IS'... We should

be careful to follow only where His Word takes us in this and I will show you what I believe is the knowable path

to where it goes out of sight

1 Peter 1:1-5

    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia,

Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus

Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our

Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a

lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,4 To an inheritance

incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in

the last time.

KJV

As this becomes the inseparable election/foreknowledge defined in Jesus Love for all the world when He came into it!

And it is directly proportional to that of Jesus The Christ Himself

1 Peter 1:20

20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last

times for your sake,

ESV

Acts 2:22-23

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by

miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves

also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,

ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

KJV

Rom 11:33-36

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are

His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord?

Or who has become His counselor?"

35 'Or who has first given to Him

And it shall be repaid to him?"

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

NKJV

Col 1:25-29

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to

me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages

and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make

known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ

in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man

in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29 Whereunto I also

labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

KJV

This path of elective foreknowledge whom we preach is to every man "as the great commission"

clearly stated by God

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is

longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

KJV

 

Lets go back to Lucifer, and our disagreement.  If Lucifer was created to be an angel that leads in worship in heaven, and it was God's will that he be perfect and continue as a good angel, he would have continued as a good angel.  We both acknowledge that there was a time when iniquity was found in Lucifer, and he led a rebellion against God.  The disagreement is over how the iniquity got there.  It is my position that everything that exists is a creation of God.  Nothing comes from nothing.  That would include iniquity.  It has to begin somewhere, which means iniquity has to have a creator.  You claim Lucifer became full of iniquity on his own, which would mean that Lucifer has the power to create.  God would be the creator of good, and Lucifer would be the creator of evil.  That makes Lucifer more powerful than I believe he is, and God less powerful than I believe he is.  How exactly did Lucifer create iniquity out of nothing?  That makes no sense to me.  Even if he had free will to decide what he wanted to do, iniquity is a creation.  Where did it come from?

We've already discussed this... why is it your understanding of God's sovereignty is not combined with His created image?

Or do you believe the image of God is not a complete image of Himself and where do you find that?

Iniquity is began in lie and satan is the father of it... there is no creation but perversion of

that which is already established and filling all eternity 'TRUTH OF GOD'... a lie has no source

in God -For God 'IS' only Truth!!!! You are to give no place for lies and only reason in truth

"God's Word 'IS' truth"

 

Now, lets look at my question to you about free will in heaven.  I asked you if a Christian could make it to heaven, still have free will, have iniquity pop up in him or her, and lead a rebellion, only to be cast out of heaven?  You asked why would they?  I would ask the same thing of Lucifer and the third of the angels.  They were in heaven too.

Your question might be valid except it is outside of the created order of reason... Look satan and angels were

given the ability to take note of externals and God lifted satan up to the highest position possible 'the covering cherub'

and gave him ability to radiate the glory of God back upon God with added creative ability given him... taking note of

this wonder God bestowed upon him he fell by his own reordering of reason and bore the first title of thief for he stole

that which belonged solely for the purpose of God's Glory and kept it for himself as his own-> thus as the yeast of the sin of

lie it quickly spread to murder by proclaiming his right to be God by his person and abilities to other angels which believed

the lie and fell with him... you see this order taught by The Lord here

John 10:10

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:

I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

KJV

God has said that hell will have only God's wrath the eternal punishment of... we are not children of

God's wrath thus sealed by God's Spirit to the eternal love so there is no permission of God to fall

once we are in the eternal state for there is no sin-> nor has it ever been considered... it will have

the power of complete and utter holiness in the full presence of God The Father, Son and Holy Spirit...

sin has no place in God's eternity but that of God's Wrath!

Listen God 'IS' Holy and Pure and has no part with evil and just as God judged Adam from dust thou art

and to dust thou shalt return so also satan from evil thou art and to evil thou shalt be kept... note

that which you cannot answer

Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,

ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

KJV

You see Butero God never created hell for people and no where in Scripture can you find that God

predestined them to there! So really the burden of proof lies on you to produce other...

 

That never addressed my question.  My question is could it happen?  How about the remaining angels?  Could they still choose to follow the devil?  Your reasoning doesn't answer that question.  I wasn't asking if it is likely they would, but if they could?  It makes no sense to say Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels had free will to rebel, but nobody has that ability anymore.  At the same time, if you are claiming that we will still have free will in heaven, that means nobody has any assurance of lasting salvation.

Listen you don't have the right to reason apart from Scripture

and you are clearly, perhaps unbeknownst to you, you are!

God says about the New Jerusalem -the city of the eternal state

Rev 21:27

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh

abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

KJV

nothing can enter to defile it so says The Word Of The Lord...

 

Here are my conclusions on our disagreement:

 

1.  I believe God is the creator of all things, including evil.  You believe that Lucifer created evil, meaning he has creative powers along with God.

Again you are giving place to satan and his lies which has no created place by God but hell dumping into lake of eternal fire...

 

2.  I believe that God is in full control of his creation.  You believe God makes mistakes, and sometimes creates things that are not perfect.  I believe that God created the devil knowing he would become an adversary.  You believe God created the devil without the knowledge he would become an adversary.

No I challenge you to produce that claim

"You believe God created the devil without the knowledge he would become an adversary."

I have said (till I am almost blue) that God's Knowing all things is not causal...

Your idea and what God teaches us in His Word are at odds... your demand of God sovereignty to fit within

your reason does not jive with How God has done... God sovereignly has created as we are told by Him as we

were not there and in The foundation of Word we see God claiming the perfect, as His Own source of

perfection, so stamped upon Lucifer in His created state... and the literary writ supports this in the

hermeneutical examination! As long as you see God in need of evil or sourcing adversarial lie to increase

His Glory you are not seeing the God that I Worship and Adore with The Holy Spirit of God within me!!! For

He is so separate from sin that when the sin was put upon His Son in the Cross- God The Father became

separate from His Own Son so testified by The Word of The Son-> Jesus referenced God as His Father every

where in Scripture except at the end when He received the sin of the world upon Himself and then referred

to The Holy Father as My God, My God why hast Thou forsaken me and yet in the account of Luke we see even

after separation of Himself from The Father -His Own sovereignty laid aside- into The Holiness of His Father

commended He into that keeping of perfect holiness and justice combined in that instance by Jesus very last

Words of perfection

Luke 23:46-47

46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said,

"Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.'"

Having said this, He breathed His last. 47 So when the centurion

saw what had happened, he glorified God, saying, "Certainly this

was a righteous Man!"

NKJV

 

3.  I believe that if the devil and 1/3 of the angels have free will and ability to rebel in heaven, that means every person that is in heaven and the remaining 2/3 of the angels have the ability to rebel.  You believe that the devil and 1/3 of the angels had that free will, but Christians and the rest of the angels do not. 

 

Your positions make no logical sense to me.

I'm glad... God says is not with the ability of our capable reason do we believe but

with 'Thus sayeth The Lord' and I have Joy unspeakable and full of Glory because of

this... I can give you testimony of my family here that this is my one most remarkable

trait that I have been given by The Lord and they are witnesses of it nearly everyday

Love, Steven

 

The Bible was written to believers in various churches, which also applies to the entire church.  While everyone who can read gets value from the knowledge in scripture, it is clear that the text was not written to unbelievers.  Let me give you an example.

 

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.  Phil 2:12

 

Of course this is not speaking to unbelievers.  They have hardly obeyed Paul's teachings.  They have not obtained salvation.  You have tried to take scriptures that are speaking to believers and make them apply to people that are not Christians. 

 

You mentioned Lucifer's created image.  None of those scriptures in any way shape or form prove that God didn't place iniquity on the inside of Lucifer, and that it remained dormant until the appointed time.  I have no burden of proof in this matter.  I stated before we began this debate there is no way to prove with absolute certainty who is right, because it is based on personal beliefs and our own interpretation of scripture.  I could claim the burden of proof is on you to show that iniquity could come from nothing, or that Lucifer had creative ability to make iniquity, something that never existed.  Look at what you said about sin.  You claim that we cannot sin in heaven because sin won't exist there, yet you claim that God created Lucifer in a perfect state, with no sin, and he sinned in spite of that fact.  If he could create sin from nothing, why couldn't a person in heaven?  I don't agree that God gave Lucifer special ability to create.  I am referring to your comment that God "gave him the ability to radiate the glory of God back upon God with added creative ability given him."  That means you are saying Lucifer was given the ability to create.  You have not only given him free will, but now you have given him the ability to create.  I would suggest the burden of proof is on you to prove that. 

 

Hell was created for the devil and his angels.  I brought that up myself in another post.  God knew all along that the devil and 1/3 of the angels would rebel and he created hell for them.  At the same time, those people who choose to rebel by following the devil now wind up in hell too. 

 

You have said that God being all knowing "is not casual."  What exactly is that supposed to mean?  That his being all knowing doesn't mean all knowing?  If that is what you mean, then I disagree with you.  It is a creative way of using words to your advantage, but it is not true.  If God is all knowing, that means he knew full well that when he created Lucifer, he would rebel against him.  He is either all knowing or he is not.  If he created Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels with special ability where Lucifer could become the Father of a lie, and create iniquity out of thin air, that tells me it was God's intent all along. 

 

You claim that I am using human reasoning and making God fit into it.  I could say the exact same thing of you.  You are using human reasoning to claim that God couldn't create anything bad.  We are both using reasoning, along with our interpretation of scripture to come to the conclusions we have.  Now Enoob, I have stated several times that "the burden of proof is on you to prove...."  I did that as a result of your claiming the burden of proof is on me to prove my position.  In reality, neither of us have any burden of proof to show anything.  We can both take the exact same scriptures and say they work in our favor, because we don't interpret them the same way.  For you to prove your position, you have to show proof that God created Lucifer thinking he would remain loyal.  For me to prove my position, I have to show proof that God created Lucifer knowing he would rebel against him.  Neither of us have the ability to do that.  We both have a different view of who the God we serve is.  We both have a different view of who the God of the Bible is. 

 

I do want to briefly address one thing.  God didn't have to create something evil to show anything.  It was just the method he chose, just like he didn't have to create and raise up Pharoah to show his power, but he did.  I am not claiming he had no choice but to do that.  I am just saying that is what the Bible teaches he did. 

[enoob57]

You mentioned Lucifer's created image. None of those scriptures in any way shape or form prove that God didn't place iniquity on the inside of Lucifer, and that it remained dormant until the appointed time. I have no burden of proof in this matter.

You have misunderstood angels are not created in God's image only man is stated so- this is possibly what instigated Lucifer toward inward corruption

Man was the only being, stated in God's Word, as His created image! This was basic 101 of Theology... you took me by surprise by this misunderstanding!

Oh yes you have a huge burden of proof in this way by answering these questions:

1. God has an eternity without evil ever existing... do you agree with this?

2. God's creation shows that the fruit of anything is descriptive of what it is... so you believe this?

3. God says anything that is cannot be anything else but what it is- you cannot have both good and evil from the same source... do you believe this?

the answer is only yes to all three of these by The Scriptures... if you disagree please provide

Scripture to do so! There is only one conclusion then God is telling the truth when He gives the

fatherhood of lie to satan! Your demand to give the lie place as a created substance of God is

logically impossible... you cannot have truth and lie together (ever) as they are not of the same... truth is the substance

of all that 'IS' lie is the perversion of that truth!

 

I stated before we began this debate there is no way to prove with absolute certainty who is right, because it is based on personal beliefs and our own interpretation of scripture. I could claim the burden of proof is on you to show that iniquity could come from nothing, or that Lucifer had creative ability to make iniquity, something that never existed. Look at what you said about sin.

You claim that we cannot sin in heaven because sin won't exist there, yet you claim that God created Lucifer in a perfect state, with no sin, and he sinned in spite of that fact. If he could create sin from nothing, why couldn't a person in heaven?

Lie does not have anything of God in it... therefore it is not of or from God... thus it has no created substance...

Lie has no place in God's creation or being...

If I were to say of your child this is the father could it ever be said of anyone else? You see Butero there

is this natural reality, a self-evident truth, that a lie is totally and completely reliant upon a first existence of

truth to even exist… then take away the truth and what remains of lie? Your whole stance on giving substance

to lie as from God has even in it's beginning build a divergent from the common sense of examination of simple

truth which is- lie contains nothing from God as God is only truth. Then you say that lie is necessary for truth

as adversary is necessary for God or else it wouldn't be here… that is ludicrous logic! God has eternity past

existed without lie and then satan fathers the possiblity of another god by forming what he had received from

God and formed 'i am god' and you give substance to that by saying this is of God or from God or of

necessary use by God…

Maybe you can see this foundation in this way

Rev 4:10-11

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever

and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and

honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

KJV

This is in a perfect environment of perfect praise and only truth, which is the total of God, exists- notice what is

being proclaimed "for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created"… as this is

the total of God's Work in creation and the total outcome was for His Pleasure!

I ask you straight out Are you saying God has pleasure in sin? Now before you try to wiggle out

of this ->it is only a yes or no question! Not no with a yes explanation or yes with a no explanation! You see

this is what God calls being held by His Word there is no turning; there is no left; there is no right only here

unmovable upon foundation of Him alone!

 

I don't agree that God gave Lucifer special ability to create. I am referring to your comment that God "gave him the ability to radiate the glory of God back upon God with added creative ability given him." That means you are saying Lucifer was given the ability to create. You have not only given him free will, but now you have given him the ability to create. I would suggest the burden of proof is on you to prove that.

The work above should cease your reasoning to say satan created anything but only perverted what existed

into what doesn't exist and then by taking what does exist and reforming by perversion of that existence used

the blessing of God (pleasure) so that which appears to be what is- is really what is not- and what 'IS' remains

as 'IS' ->for The 'IS' of God >in truth< cannot be altered or changed in anyway and that is the structure of the

whole council of God from Genesis to Revelation…

James 3:9-18

9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men,

which are made after the similitude of God. 10 Out of the same mouth

proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not

so to be.

We in this place of darkness and confusion (because of sin) put evil and good

together but it is not so with God Who has eternally divided it out in judgment!

11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water

and bitter? 12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries?

either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

God's creations testifies of this eternal division cleary without doubt and the

two cannot be put together for all of eternity!

13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew

out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not,

and lie not against the truth. 15 This wisdom descendeth not from above,

but is earthly, sensual, devilish. 16 For where envying and strife is,

there is confusion and every evil work.

God clearly divides from His essence totally from this preversion of satan...

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle,

and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality,

and without hypocrisy. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of

them that make peace.

KJV

This is the essence of God- was, is and will be without change as His Word unconditionally

proclaiming into the eternity! There were two trees one with prohibition the other without- we

simply ate of the perversion that was born out of satan 'lie' we could have eaten of the tree of

life and lived forever in the pleasure of God without lie- but we didn't do that did we…

 

Hell was created for the devil and his angels. I brought that up myself in another post. God knew all along that the devil and 1/3 of the angels would rebel and he created hell for them.

At the same time, those people who choose to rebel by following the devil now wind up in hell too.

You have no right to be here… for you are standing in a perverted order and reasoning within that perverted order and only perversion can come from it! God created the angels in His Pleasure-> in Heaven for Himself!

God commands us in Scripture to place divisions within Scripture to RIGHTLY DIVIDE TRUTH FROM LIE…

God created Lucifer and all angels perfect by God's Own Standard of Perfection and Said so in His Word

before the first born error from satan was produced… we can't even know our own hearts and because God

has, in His Love, taught us about Himself (knowing all things) you feel adequate to judge His in the intent of

creation? When God says He created 'ALL' things for His pleasure and then clearly says God has no pleasure

in sin… common wake up to truth! Hell is God's giving no place to lie and His wrath is there two reason:

1. To keep His Word of Truth as God is present in all places…

2. Because they used His Created Sovereign design of choice in their perfect makeup to go there…

 

You have said that God being all knowing "is not casual." What exactly is that supposed to mean?

That God sovereignly declaring that He placed a self-dedicating will within all His creation and that by knowing

the choice they would take is completely in that sovereignty of design separate from that choice and they alone

bear the responsibility of it!

 

That his being all knowing doesn't mean all knowing? If that is what you mean, then I disagree with you. It is a creative way of using words to your advantage, but it is not true. If God is all knowing, that means he knew full well that when he created Lucifer, he would rebel against him. He is either all knowing or he is not. If he created Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels with special ability where Lucifer could become the Father of a lie, and create iniquity out of thin air, that tells me it was God's intent all along.

Why did you capitalize father "where Lucifer could become the Father of a lie" this is outside the permitted

place of God's Word as we have Only One Father that should be capitalized! Just a curios read is all…

I have mused upon call no man Father

Matt 23:9

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

KJV

as we know the difference from procreation and creation itself so also should we know the difference from

God's intent of design to that of the shadow of death that has come upon that design in this way I speak:

would Adam and Eve had children either way- whether obedient or disobedient? Man initiated self-determining

choice to disobedience as Adam put Eve before God even though He knew she was after this-> He and God

already had beginning intimacy of b(Being)… furthering the putting away of reality by following her lead instead

of the established lead that of Father in The Son in the beginning… so now nothing has changed Is God our

Father by The Work of the Son solely? The other born out from satan we are to give it no place as calling the

procreation in sin father but by new birth that of Spirit Born out From God Our Father which art in Heaven….

Also your giving creative essence to lie is also outside of God's Word… you see butero there is only one result

in lie and that is confusion and God is not the author of it period

Isa 41:28-29

28 For I beheld, and there was no man; even among them, and there was no counsellor, that, when I asked of them, could answer a word.

29 Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind and confusion.

KJV

Isa 45:15-17

15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

Notice the everlasting absence of confusion

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

KJV

1 Cor 14:33

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

KJV

Simply God did not write or publish sin into existence for even unto itself has no place with God even in His

Creation…

 

You claim that I am using human reasoning and making God fit into it. I could say the exact same thing of you. You are using human reasoning to claim that God couldn't create anything bad. We are both using reasoning, along with our interpretation of scripture to come to the conclusions we have. Now Enoob, I have stated several times that "the burden of proof is on you to prove...." I did that as a result of your claiming the burden of proof is on me to prove my position. In reality, neither of us have any burden of proof to show anything. We can both take the exact same scriptures and say they work in our favor, because we don't interpret them the same way. For you to prove your position, you have to show proof that God created Lucifer thinking he would remain loyal. For me to prove my position, I have to show proof that God created Lucifer knowing he would rebel against him. Neither of us have the ability to do that. We both have a different view of who the God we serve is. We both have a different view of who the God of the Bible is.

This should give us pause to the truth of what you are saying…

Your view g(G)od is the author of sin and creator of evil.

Mine is that God 'IS' Holy and cannot even look upon sin.

 

I do want to briefly address one thing. God didn't have to create something evil to show anything. It was just the method he chose, just like he didn't have to create and raise up Pharoah to show his power, but he did. I am not claiming he had no choice but to do that. I am just saying that is what the Bible teaches he did.

Butero surely you know this is double talk! He didn't but He did!

God is totally independent from evil formed from sin and has maintained it's eternal separation from Himself in

all judgment since satan fathered it- simply has no place of God in itself for it is not of God!

The true Light of Life in this is Pharoah could have chosen either way and God's creative outcome will be

without variance to The Purpose of God's Glory in the eternities…what we choose we do and what we do is

the determining factor of w(W)ho we have chosen.

Love, Steven

Edited April 9, 2014 by enoob57

[enoob57]

I as read through this all I realized I am not defined in my belief here:

I believe God is completely sovereign and in that sovereignty He has the eternities set

and they are exactly as they should be... the fact that God has set forth in His created

desire a self-determining will for His creation has not, will not, can not effect God's Will

be done... but in The Perfect Will of God we see by His Word the whole of His Desire and

Pleasure in His Son (without sin) as He delivers His Will to that of The Father in the garden!

This is our pathway in reasoning of all that we face- we are to deliver our will to His Will...

Also we see as Jesus 'IS' the only standard for perfection then to place our eyes upon anything

else as giving place to ->is to lesson one's self in that perfection determined and begin to

plummet from that which He has from your previous focus of Jesus alone... to give place to sin

in your reason is to source your mind to other than God and that is what satan wants to take

your entirety of focus and begin to put it upon him...

Zech 3:2

2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that

hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

KJV

this can be accomplished while the mind, heart, will, eyes etc. whole of being remains focused

on The Lord- even in worship... this is my stance that any attention to sin is waste in the

eternal outcome. As sanctification within increases this rebuke bringing more power as I am

enabled to intensify that focus on God alone in obedience to all of myself... I then in this

environment have an event take place that is in alignment with the will of God -naturally->

I become less in the regard to God's Personal Presence within me! Ever notice how the enormity

and awe of something locks your attention and someone wanting to regain that attention has to

become persistent in that effort... imagine meditative focus upon The Lord so great that

nothing can divert your attention toward Him through His Spirit formed from His Word...

This is the foundation from which I debate from

Love, Steven

Edited April 10, 2014 by enoob57