Did God Create Lucifer Evil?

[Guest Butero]

I am going to try to answer you in a way that the post won't be too long, but still addresses your main points.  I never claimed that God created the angels in his image.  Man was created in the image of God, and man was created a little lower than the angels.  Nearly everyone knows that.  You kept bringing up created image, so I took that on.  Now, lets look at your questions. 

 

1.  God has an eternity without evil ever existing?  Evil is a creation, so yes, there was a time when evil didn't exist, although time itself is a creation, and it didn't always exist.  Time is for our benefit.

 

2.  God's creation shows that the fruit of anything is descriptive of what it is?  If you are merely saying that an apple tree bears apples, and a pear tree bears pears, I agree.  I am not sure what you mean. 

 

3.  Your third point is that you can't have good and evil coming from the same source.  That is interesting, but it only means that some contamination in something pure defiles that which is pure.  In other words, you can have a person who is generally good hearted, and does good deeds at times mess up and do something wrong.  He fed the hungry, and also lost his temper and swore.  Both came from the same person.  The problem is, the sin defiled the entire temple, so in that sense, he is unclean, in spite of the good things he sometimes does.  That is why we all need a savior.  Our best is never good enough because a little leaven leavens the entire lump.  That is all that is meant by that, but rarely do you ever find a person that doesn't at times show goodness in him or her, even though you will at times see them doing bad things.  Lucifer is the father of a lie, yet God created Lucifer, knowing full well what Lucifer would become.  It is illogical to think God didn't know Lucifer would eventually rebel.  You made a big deal out of one instance where I used a big letter "F" to describe Lucifer at the Father of a lie, yet you have given him god like status in giving him creative ability to make something out of nothing.  Only God can create something from nothing. 

 

George Washington is known as the Father of this nation, yet George Washington only exists because God created him.  Before God formed George Washington in the womb, he knew he would raise him up to be known as the Father of America.  It is no different when it comes to Lucifer being called the father of a lie. 

 

You like to say God created all things for his pleasure, so if he created sin, that means he takes pleasure in sin.  That is not true.  He takes pleasure in drawing a contrast between good and evil.  He takes pleasure in showing his power.  He uses evil to do that.  It is the creation as a whole he takes pleasure in.  In the Bible, we read about a new heaven and a new earth.  God takes pleasure in the outcome, but to get to that place, we have to go through the great tribulation period and a final rebellion at the end of the millennial reign.  God takes pleasure in the saints spending eternity with him, but that means that many who are not saints will wind up in hell for eternity.  Who created hell?  Who created heaven?  Surely you don't believe that Satan created hell, and hell is a horrible place of eternal torment.  God takes pleasure in his creation.  God takes pleasure in justice, which is part of his nature. 

 

I am in no way "judging God."  I have even gone so far as to point out that no man can be 100 percent sure of anything when it comes to the creation since we weren't there.  We see that lesson taught in Job with Job's friends.  If you are going to accuse me of judging God, by pointing out that God created hell for fallen angels, and bad people go there too, I would point out that you are making God out as incapable of creating perfection, and keeping something perfect.  You have him creating Lucifer and all the angels perfect, but they apparently had a serious defect, because they didn't stay perfect.  You have given the devil creative power, to create iniquity out of thin air, when you say it never existed before him.  You then contradict yourself by saying that it was possible for Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels to create iniquity out of thin air, but none of the other angels, and no people that make it to heaven can do the same thing, even though most of your argument is built on everyone and everything having free will to choose. 

 

You never really answered my question about your claim that God gave Lucifer creative ability.  None of that stuff about Adam and Eve are relevant.  I am very much aware that Adam chose to follow Eve rather than God.  That has nothing to do with Adam, Eve or Lucifer having creative ability. 

 

What you are saying should give you pause.  You are claiming that God is weak, and incapable of creating something that will bring him lasting pleasure.  You are claiming he created defective angels.  You are claiming that Lucifer has so much power, he is a co-creator with God, and he created iniquity out of thin air, and God had no idea this would take place.  In order to say God only creates things that are good, you have to reduce God down to the point of messing up.  I have a strong God that never makes mistakes, and you have a weak God who only creates things that are good, but don't always remain good. 

 

I did not give you double talk.  You have been claiming that I said it was necessary for God to create evil to show good.  I never said he had to do that, but that he chose to do it.  There is no double talk there.  It is very straight forward. 

 

Now, lets go to your question to me:

'

"Are you saying God has pleasure in sin?"  No, but just as I wouldn't let a slick talking lawyer get away with saying I can't go any further than saying yes or no, neither will I let you get away with it.  God has pleasure in his creation as a whole.  He has pleasure in showing how his ways are superior to the alternative, and he has pleasure in the outcome for his righteous followers, a new heaven and a new earth.  Did God get pleasure in what he did to the people in Egypt?  Who ordered the plagues?  Who sent the death angel?  Who created Pharoah and raised him up to show his power?  Who drowned the entire Egyptian army?  Would you describe those events as good?  Is a plague good?  Is death good?  God takes pleasure in his creation.  He took pleasure in the fact he would take a small nation, the descendants of Abraham, and make a mighty nation of them, after he delivered them from Egyptian bondage.  God sent a famine that led to Israel being in Egypt 430 years.  God raised up a tyrant so they would become slaves and want to leave Egypt once they were large enough to become a nation and inherit the promised land.  Was the famine good?  Was the bondage good?  Who did that Enoob, to bring about his ends? 

[enoob57]

I am going to try to answer you in a way that the post won't be too long, but still addresses your main points.  I never claimed that God created the angels in his image.  Man was created in the image of God, and man was created a little lower than the angels.  Nearly everyone knows that.  You kept bringing up created image, so I took that on.  Now, lets look at your questions. 

 

1.  God has an eternity without evil ever existing?  Evil is a creation, so yes, there was a time when evil didn't exist, although time itself is a creation, and it didn't always exist.  Time is for our benefit.

 

2.  God's creation shows that the fruit of anything is descriptive of what it is?  If you are merely saying that an apple tree bears apples, and a pear tree bears pears, I agree.  I am not sure what you mean. 

 

3.  Your third point is that you can't have good and evil coming from the same source.  That is interesting, but it only means that some contamination in something pure defiles that which is pure.  In other words, you can have a person who is generally good hearted, and does good deeds at times mess up and do something wrong.  He fed the hungry, and also lost his temper and swore.  Both came from the same person.  The problem is, the sin defiled the entire temple, so in that sense, he is unclean, in spite of the good things he sometimes does.  That is why we all need a savior.  Our best is never good enough because a little leaven leavens the entire lump.  That is all that is meant by that, but rarely do you ever find a person that doesn't at times show goodness in him or her, even though you will at times see them doing bad things.  Lucifer is the father of a lie, yet God created Lucifer, knowing full well what Lucifer would become.  It is illogical to think God didn't know Lucifer would eventually rebel.  You made a big deal out of one instance where I used a big letter "F" to describe Lucifer at the Father of a lie, yet you have given him god like status in giving him creative ability to make something out of nothing.  Only God can create something from nothing. 

 

George Washington is known as the Father of this nation, yet George Washington only exists because God created him.  Before God formed George Washington in the womb, he knew he would raise him up to be known as the Father of America.  It is no different when it comes to Lucifer being called the father of a lie. 

 

You like to say God created all things for his pleasure, so if he created sin, that means he takes pleasure in sin.  That is not true.  He takes pleasure in drawing a contrast between good and evil.  He takes pleasure in showing his power.  He uses evil to do that.  It is the creation as a whole he takes pleasure in.  In the Bible, we read about a new heaven and a new earth.  God takes pleasure in the outcome, but to get to that place, we have to go through the great tribulation period and a final rebellion at the end of the millennial reign.  God takes pleasure in the saints spending eternity with him, but that means that many who are not saints will wind up in hell for eternity.  Who created hell?  Who created heaven?  Surely you don't believe that Satan created hell, and hell is a horrible place of eternal torment.  God takes pleasure in his creation.  God takes pleasure in justice, which is part of his nature. 

 

I am in no way "judging God."  I have even gone so far as to point out that no man can be 100 percent sure of anything when it comes to the creation since we weren't there.  We see that lesson taught in Job with Job's friends.  If you are going to accuse me of judging God, by pointing out that God created hell for fallen angels, and bad people go there too, I would point out that you are making God out as incapable of creating perfection, and keeping something perfect.  You have him creating Lucifer and all the angels perfect, but they apparently had a serious defect, because they didn't stay perfect.  You have given the devil creative power, to create iniquity out of thin air, when you say it never existed before him.  You then contradict yourself by saying that it was possible for Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels to create iniquity out of thin air, but none of the other angels, and no people that make it to heaven can do the same thing, even though most of your argument is built on everyone and everything having free will to choose. 

 

You never really answered my question about your claim that God gave Lucifer creative ability.  None of that stuff about Adam and Eve are relevant.  I am very much aware that Adam chose to follow Eve rather than God.  That has nothing to do with Adam, Eve or Lucifer having creative ability. 

 

What you are saying should give you pause.  You are claiming that God is weak, and incapable of creating something that will bring him lasting pleasure.  You are claiming he created defective angels.  You are claiming that Lucifer has so much power, he is a co-creator with God, and he created iniquity out of thin air, and God had no idea this would take place.  In order to say God only creates things that are good, you have to reduce God down to the point of messing up.  I have a strong God that never makes mistakes, and you have a weak God who only creates things that are good, but don't always remain good. 

 

I did not give you double talk.  You have been claiming that I said it was necessary for God to create evil to show good.  I never said he had to do that, but that he chose to do it.  There is no double talk there.  It is very straight forward. 

 

Now, lets go to your question to me:

'

"Are you saying God has pleasure in sin?"  No, but just as I wouldn't let a slick talking lawyer get away with saying I can't go any further than saying yes or no, neither will I let you get away with it.  God has pleasure in his creation as a whole.  He has pleasure in showing how his ways are superior to the alternative, and he has pleasure in the outcome for his righteous followers, a new heaven and a new earth.  Did God get pleasure in what he did to the people in Egypt?  Who ordered the plagues?  Who sent the death angel?  Who created Pharoah and raised him up to show his power?  Who drowned the entire Egyptian army?  Would you describe those events as good?  Is a plague good?  Is death good?  God takes pleasure in his creation.  He took pleasure in the fact he would take a small nation, the descendants of Abraham, and make a mighty nation of them, after he delivered them from Egyptian bondage.  God sent a famine that led to Israel being in Egypt 430 years.  God raised up a tyrant so they would become slaves and want to leave Egypt once they were large enough to become a nation and inherit the promised land.  Was the famine good?  Was the bondage good?  Who did that Enoob, to bring about his ends?

This is not meant to be harsh but to the point of debate! I already know your reasoning I want to

see your Scripture that verifies that reasoning to be of God's Word...

We both agreed using Scripture to debate this subject... I am waiting for that still to take place.

Please engage at the agreed format of Scripture posting to support reason of stance in belief.

Please try to keep what has been answered with Scripture as the refute of your reason and give back

Scripture to further the understanding of that opposed given by Scripture... Thank you, Love, Steven

Edited April 11, 2014 by enoob57

[Guest Butero]

 

I am going to try to answer you in a way that the post won't be too long, but still addresses your main points.  I never claimed that God created the angels in his image.  Man was created in the image of God, and man was created a little lower than the angels.  Nearly everyone knows that.  You kept bringing up created image, so I took that on.  Now, lets look at your questions. 

 

1.  God has an eternity without evil ever existing?  Evil is a creation, so yes, there was a time when evil didn't exist, although time itself is a creation, and it didn't always exist.  Time is for our benefit.

 

2.  God's creation shows that the fruit of anything is descriptive of what it is?  If you are merely saying that an apple tree bears apples, and a pear tree bears pears, I agree.  I am not sure what you mean. 

 

3.  Your third point is that you can't have good and evil coming from the same source.  That is interesting, but it only means that some contamination in something pure defiles that which is pure.  In other words, you can have a person who is generally good hearted, and does good deeds at times mess up and do something wrong.  He fed the hungry, and also lost his temper and swore.  Both came from the same person.  The problem is, the sin defiled the entire temple, so in that sense, he is unclean, in spite of the good things he sometimes does.  That is why we all need a savior.  Our best is never good enough because a little leaven leavens the entire lump.  That is all that is meant by that, but rarely do you ever find a person that doesn't at times show goodness in him or her, even though you will at times see them doing bad things.  Lucifer is the father of a lie, yet God created Lucifer, knowing full well what Lucifer would become.  It is illogical to think God didn't know Lucifer would eventually rebel.  You made a big deal out of one instance where I used a big letter "F" to describe Lucifer at the Father of a lie, yet you have given him god like status in giving him creative ability to make something out of nothing.  Only God can create something from nothing. 

 

George Washington is known as the Father of this nation, yet George Washington only exists because God created him.  Before God formed George Washington in the womb, he knew he would raise him up to be known as the Father of America.  It is no different when it comes to Lucifer being called the father of a lie. 

 

You like to say God created all things for his pleasure, so if he created sin, that means he takes pleasure in sin.  That is not true.  He takes pleasure in drawing a contrast between good and evil.  He takes pleasure in showing his power.  He uses evil to do that.  It is the creation as a whole he takes pleasure in.  In the Bible, we read about a new heaven and a new earth.  God takes pleasure in the outcome, but to get to that place, we have to go through the great tribulation period and a final rebellion at the end of the millennial reign.  God takes pleasure in the saints spending eternity with him, but that means that many who are not saints will wind up in hell for eternity.  Who created hell?  Who created heaven?  Surely you don't believe that Satan created hell, and hell is a horrible place of eternal torment.  God takes pleasure in his creation.  God takes pleasure in justice, which is part of his nature. 

 

I am in no way "judging God."  I have even gone so far as to point out that no man can be 100 percent sure of anything when it comes to the creation since we weren't there.  We see that lesson taught in Job with Job's friends.  If you are going to accuse me of judging God, by pointing out that God created hell for fallen angels, and bad people go there too, I would point out that you are making God out as incapable of creating perfection, and keeping something perfect.  You have him creating Lucifer and all the angels perfect, but they apparently had a serious defect, because they didn't stay perfect.  You have given the devil creative power, to create iniquity out of thin air, when you say it never existed before him.  You then contradict yourself by saying that it was possible for Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels to create iniquity out of thin air, but none of the other angels, and no people that make it to heaven can do the same thing, even though most of your argument is built on everyone and everything having free will to choose. 

 

You never really answered my question about your claim that God gave Lucifer creative ability.  None of that stuff about Adam and Eve are relevant.  I am very much aware that Adam chose to follow Eve rather than God.  That has nothing to do with Adam, Eve or Lucifer having creative ability. 

 

What you are saying should give you pause.  You are claiming that God is weak, and incapable of creating something that will bring him lasting pleasure.  You are claiming he created defective angels.  You are claiming that Lucifer has so much power, he is a co-creator with God, and he created iniquity out of thin air, and God had no idea this would take place.  In order to say God only creates things that are good, you have to reduce God down to the point of messing up.  I have a strong God that never makes mistakes, and you have a weak God who only creates things that are good, but don't always remain good. 

 

I did not give you double talk.  You have been claiming that I said it was necessary for God to create evil to show good.  I never said he had to do that, but that he chose to do it.  There is no double talk there.  It is very straight forward. 

 

Now, lets go to your question to me:

'

"Are you saying God has pleasure in sin?"  No, but just as I wouldn't let a slick talking lawyer get away with saying I can't go any further than saying yes or no, neither will I let you get away with it.  God has pleasure in his creation as a whole.  He has pleasure in showing how his ways are superior to the alternative, and he has pleasure in the outcome for his righteous followers, a new heaven and a new earth.  Did God get pleasure in what he did to the people in Egypt?  Who ordered the plagues?  Who sent the death angel?  Who created Pharoah and raised him up to show his power?  Who drowned the entire Egyptian army?  Would you describe those events as good?  Is a plague good?  Is death good?  God takes pleasure in his creation.  He took pleasure in the fact he would take a small nation, the descendants of Abraham, and make a mighty nation of them, after he delivered them from Egyptian bondage.  God sent a famine that led to Israel being in Egypt 430 years.  God raised up a tyrant so they would become slaves and want to leave Egypt once they were large enough to become a nation and inherit the promised land.  Was the famine good?  Was the bondage good?  Who did that Enoob, to bring about his ends?

This is not meant to be harsh but to the point of debate! I already know your reasoning I want to

see your Scripture that verifies that reasoning to be of God's Word...

We both agreed using Scripture to debate this subject... I am waiting for that still to take place.

Please engage at the agreed format of Scripture posting to support reason of stance in belief.

Please try to keep what has been answered with Scripture as the refute of your reason and give back

Scripture to further the understanding of that opposed given by Scripture... Thank you, Love, Steven

 

There is a difference in giving scripture that backs up your arguments, and just posting scripture.  I went through the points you made and showed that the scriptures you gave didn't back up your position.  In some instances, they were completely irrelevant to the subject being discussed.  Those scriptures you gave about Adam and Eve were what I consider to be rabbit trails, and that is in violation of the agreed upon terms of the debate.  There is no need to bring in additional scripture to refute something when you never proved your point in the first place. 

 

You have provided no scripture that proves that Lucifer was given special powers to create something from nothing.  You didn't give scripture to back up your point that good and evil can't come from the same source, but since I knew what scriptures you were referring to, I addressed that point anyway.  Yes, Lucifer is the father of a lie, but God created Lucifer.  If you give me scripture showing that Lucifer is the father of a lie, you prove nothing.  You gave scripture repeatedly about God creating all things for his pleasure, and I already addressed that.  You proved nothing.  I answered all of your points where you used scripture, with the exception of a rabbit trail. 

 

You say you want me to provide scripture as agreed upon.  I am prepared to do just that, going in my own direction, but there is no need to use scripture to refute something that you didn't prove.  Your objection reminds me of certain preachers I have listened to who will give scripture that doesn't have anything to do with the topic in context, but because he gave a bunch of scripture, he claimed to have backed himself up. 

[Guest Butero]

This morning, I read your post Enoob, and responded to it.  I believe I addressed all the important points.  I had decided a direction I was going to go this evening, depending on how you answered me.  I want to address how God uses that which is evil for his purposes.  I want to address how God is in complete control of all things.  God even uses a fallen Lucifer for his purposes.  I want to start in the book of Job.  Lucifer isn't out there doing anything he wants to.  He can only go as far as God allows.  As a matter of fact, Lucifer still has to report back to his creator. 

 

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.  Job 1:6

 

God began to question Satan about whether or not he had taken notice of Job, and what a just man he is.  Satan began accusing Job to God, and told him that it was only because God blessed him he served him.  God gave Satan permission to test Job, but with limits.

 

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power:  only upon himself put not forth thine hand.  So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.  Job 1:12

 

As a result of that permission, Satan took away all of Job's wealth, and killed all of his family with the exception of his wife.  Then we move on to Satan presenting himself before God once again.

 

AGAIN there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.  Job 2:1

 

Notice what it says in the next verses.

 

And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou?  And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.  Job 2:2,3

 

Now, you will say to me, and rightly so, that it was Satan that did this evil to Job.  That is true, but God gave him permission to do it.  As such, he takes responsibility for what happened to Job.  God didn't bring the evil upon Job to test him, but he allowed Satan to do it.  We know what happens next.  Satan then accuses Job of only doing right because he is being protected in having good health, and notice what happens.  Look what God tells Satan.

 

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand, but save his life.  Job 2:6

 

Satan did these things, but God allowed it, and even gave permission for it to test Job and show that Job would stand up to any amount of evil thrown his way.  Did God get pleasure in the evil that he allowed and gave permission to come upon righteous Job?  No.  He got pleasure in how Job reacted. 

 

Now lets move on to another example of God using evil to bring about his purpose.  God will do no evil, and God will tell no lies, but God has created beings that will.  God wanted king Ahab to go into a battle and be killed.  The question is, how to get him to do that?  Notice what the prophet saw taking place in heaven.

 

Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD:  I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.  And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-Gilead?  And one spake saying after this manner; and another saying after that manner.  Then there came out a spirit and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him.  And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?  And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of his prophets.  And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail:  go out, and do even so.  Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.  2 Chronicles 18:18-22

 

Notice the word of the prophet.  The Lord God cannot lie, but he used a spirit being he created to lie.  That is why the prophet states "the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets."  God creates both good and evil, and uses both for his purposes.  The ultimate end will be a new heaven and a new earth.  That is where we are heading, but in the meantime, God is using all of his creation, even Lucifer and the fallen angels to bring about his plan for mankind.  Even when Lucifer and the fallen angels are doing things that are wicked, it will all ultimately be used for good. 

[enoob57]

Here is the verse that states How Lucifer was created

Ezek 28:15

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

KJV

There was no flaw in satan's creation Perfect (I already showed you the Hebrew)...

till iniquity was found and described here

Isa 14:13-14

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven,

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also

upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

KJV

Now show me anywhere in Scripture where God says He put this in Lucifer!

Love, Steven

[Guest Butero]

Here is the verse that states How Lucifer was created

Ezek 28:15

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

KJV

There was no flaw in satan's creation Perfect (I already showed you the Hebrew)...

till iniquity was found and described here

Isa 14:13-14

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven,

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also

upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

KJV

Now show me anywhere in Scripture where God says He put this in Lucifer!

Love, Steven

I don't have to show that.  I just have to show that God is the creator of all that exists, and that is rather easy to do.  Speaking of Christ...

 

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:  all things were created by him, and for him.  Colossians 1:16

 

All things means just that, all things.  That includes Lucifer. 

 

Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.  Ezekiel 28:15

 

This doesn't say that Lucifer was perfect.  It says he was "perfect in thy ways."  Big difference.  He acted in a perfect manner, till iniquity was found in him.  The iniquity was there all the time, but wasn't manifested in Lucifer's behavior at first.  He was perfect in his ways for a time.  Everything that exists, including evil, was created by God.  Colossians 1:16 makes that clear.  How about you providing scripture that shows Lucifer has been given the ability to create something out of nothing, like iniquity for instance? 

 

I form the light, and create darkness:  I make peace, and create evil:  I the LORD do all these things.  Isaiah 45:7

[enoob57]

Here is the verse that states How Lucifer was created

Ezek 28:15

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

KJV

There was no flaw in satan's creation Perfect (I already showed you the Hebrew)...

till iniquity was found and described here

Isa 14:13-14

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven,

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also

upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

KJV

Now show me anywhere in Scripture where God says He put this in Lucifer!

Love, Steven

I don't have to show that.  I just have to show that God is the creator of all that exists, and that is rather easy to do.  Speaking of Christ...

 

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:  all things were created by him, and for him.  Colossians 1:16

 

All things means just that, all things.  That includes Lucifer. 

 

Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.  Ezekiel 28:15

 

This doesn't say that Lucifer was perfect.  It says he was "perfect in thy ways."  Big difference.  He acted in a perfect manner, till iniquity was found in him.  The iniquity was there all the time, but wasn't manifested in Lucifer's behavior at first.  He was perfect in his ways for a time.  Everything that exists, including evil, was created by God.  Colossians 1:16 makes that clear.  How about you providing scripture that shows Lucifer has been given the ability to create something out of nothing, like iniquity for instance?

 

Yes it does claim Lucifer perfect in both Butero. The Book of James teaches by our works God 'IS' proved in us

James 2:17

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

KJV

So perfect in thy ways is just that he worked the perfection of God in his actions...

Just as Christ justified Himself with the same judgement

John 10:37-38

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do,

though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and

believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

KJV

Clearly Scripture refutes your conclusion perfect being and ways are separate! But are same exampled in Christ...

Your other Scripture Col 1:16 along with Rev 4:11 state a specific event when all things were created before the

rebellion of Lucifer and fall of man. Because now there exists in creation that not of God's pleasure the death of the

wicked Ezk 33:11. So then taking Scripture out of context to the divisions they are meant to be applied

will lead to wrong conclusions.

 

I form the light, and create darkness:  I make peace, and create evil:  I the LORD do all these things.  Isaiah 45:7

This evil here can not be the moral evil of satan as this verse clearly shows

James 1:13-15

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God:

for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust,

and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth

sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

KJV

But is to be understood in the parallelism of amoral realities light/dark - peace/evil as evil equals calamity

Ps 65:7&Amos 3:6 bears this understanding perfectly...

So what you have posted here does not support God creating satan to be morally evil. Do you have anything else?

Love, Steven

Edited April 12, 2014 by enoob57

[Guest Butero]

 

 

Here is the verse that states How Lucifer was created

Ezek 28:15

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

KJV

There was no flaw in satan's creation Perfect (I already showed you the Hebrew)...

till iniquity was found and described here

Isa 14:13-14

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven,

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also

upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

KJV

Now show me anywhere in Scripture where God says He put this in Lucifer!

Love, Steven

I don't have to show that.  I just have to show that God is the creator of all that exists, and that is rather easy to do.  Speaking of Christ...

 

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:  all things were created by him, and for him.  Colossians 1:16

 

All things means just that, all things.  That includes Lucifer. 

 

Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.  Ezekiel 28:15

 

This doesn't say that Lucifer was perfect.  It says he was "perfect in thy ways."  Big difference.  He acted in a perfect manner, till iniquity was found in him.  The iniquity was there all the time, but wasn't manifested in Lucifer's behavior at first.  He was perfect in his ways for a time.  Everything that exists, including evil, was created by God.  Colossians 1:16 makes that clear.  How about you providing scripture that shows Lucifer has been given the ability to create something out of nothing, like iniquity for instance?

 

 

Yes it does claim Lucifer perfect in both Butero. The Book of James teaches by our works God 'IS' proved in us

James 2:17

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

KJV

So perfect in thy ways is just that he worked the perfection of God in his actions...

Just as Christ justified Himself with the same judgement

John 10:37-38

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do,

though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and

believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

KJV

Clearly Scripture refutes your conclusion perfect being and ways are separate! But are same exampled in Christ...

Your other Scripture Col 1:16 along with Rev 4:11 state a specific event when all things were created before the

rebellion of Lucifer and fall of man. Because now there exists in creation that not of God's pleasure the death of the

wicked Ezk 33:11. So then taking Scripture out of context to the divisions they are meant to be applied

will lead to wrong conclusions.

 

I form the light, and create darkness:  I make peace, and create evil:  I the LORD do all these things.  Isaiah 45:7

This evil here can not be the moral evil of satan as this verse clearly shows

James 1:13-15

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God:

for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust,

and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth

sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

KJV

But is to be understood in the parallelism of amoral realities light/dark - peace/evil as evil equals calamity

Ps 65:7&Amos 3:6 bears this understanding perfectly...

So what you have posted here does not support God creating satan to be morally evil. Do you have anything else?

Love, Steven

 

I don't need anything else because I reject your conclusions.  The scriptures you posted from James have nothing to do with Lucifer being created perfect.  All it says is that our good works show we have faith.  I stand by what I said.  Lucifer was perfect in his behavior till iniquity was found in him.  And again, if you were correct, that would make Lucifer a co-creator with God.  It would mean that God is not capable of creating an angel that will remain perfect.  It means he makes mistakes.  I would liken your view of God to a well intentioned being, sort of like George Burns portrayed in "Oh God," as opposed to my view of an all powerful God as shown in the movie "The Ten Commandments."  God does not make mistakes. 

 

The scriptures I gave make it clear that God created all things.  This means all things.  Lucifer is not a creator, and you haven't given one shred of scriptural evidence that he is.  Now, you mentioned how God does not tempt man.  I already addressed that.  No he doesn't, but he created beings that do.  He gave Satan permission to tempt Job.  He didn't do it, but Satan did with his permission.  He didn't lie to Ahab, but he gave the ok to lying spirits to entice him to go and fall at Ramoth-Gilead.  I didn't get anything wrong.  I stand by my interpretation.  Do you have anything else? 

 

BTW, I can give many more examples of God using evil to bring about his will.  I barely scratched the surface, but since you haven't given an adequate answer to what I posted so far, there is no reason to post more examples at this time. 

[enoob57]

Very well the debate has ended. Love, Steven

[Guest Butero]

Very well the debate has ended. Love, Steven

That's fine Steven, and it has been nice being able to discuss this topic in a civil manner.  Thanks to the moderators for all the work they had to do in setting this up.  I know there were some glitches in the system, but they got the Soap Box working, and I appreciate the good job they did keeping order.