Salty Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 My words in Green. Salty So what you are saying that these 24 Elders with crowns (rewards) and siting on thrones are not of the Church. I think you pretty well know I am not... saying those don't belong to Christ's Church. It's timing when... they appear there that is the matter, which I think you well understood that point in question also from my post. So why not address that point I raised in my post, instead of trying to get me to agree with some other point that I do not? First you must provide Scripture that states others receive crowns, I only see the Body of Christ as receiving crowns (rewards). Well, I did... provide Scripture about the timing others receive the crowns. Did you just read right over it? Even with those under the altar in the 5th Seal of Rev.6, beheaded for their Witness, asking God 'how long?', do you think they already had their rewards? If so, then why were they told to wait for their brethren 'on earth' that would be beheaded as they were? Also, there should be no question about Christ promising His Apostles each would sit upon thrones in His Kingdom reigning over the twelve tribes of Israel. Even though they are already passed on, that reign with their crowns has not begun yet today, because Christ's future Kingdom and throne is not yet manifested here on earth. So there's other ways to know this than just Scripture like 2 Tim.4:8 and 1 Pet.5:4 that make direct statements of when the crowns are handed out at Christ's appearing (i.e., His second coming at the end of this world). The Post trib theory is just that man made, with no Scriptural Support. If it does not fit Spiritualize it. I don't go around spiritualizing away Bible Scripture. But what's that the Pre-trib Rapture believers say about the "mansions" Christ said He would prepare for His that will reign with Him? They do... spiritualize away the real meaning of Bible Scripture, and that often, for those "mansions" are about the abodes of the priests in the Millennium sanctuary of Ezekiel 40 forward. When our Lord Jesus said He went to prepare those abodes, He didn't say in John 14 where those would be manifested at; He shouldn't have had to say, because He already showed those who heed His Word back in those Ezekiel 40-48 chapters, a part of His Word that very few Pre-trib rapture folks even bother to read, must less study. Now that that point is out of the way... And this can only happen when the Body as One has been united together with Christ. Is that idea supposed to somehow support the Pre-trib Rapture theory? It doesn't, it actually supports a post-trib coming of Christ Jesus and gathering of His whole... Church, because that's what His Word reveals, particularly by Apostle Paul in the 1 Thess.4 chapter. In the Matt.24 gathering, He gathers the saints that are in the heavenly... Matt.24 31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. But in the Mark 13 version, He gathers His saints from the earth... Mark 13 27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Is that not what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the gathering of the Church to Christ Jesus? Yes, it is. Jesus brings the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes, which means they are already there with Him! Apostle Paul further showed that when he said we who are still alive (on earth) and remain, shall in no wise 'precede' them (KJV word "prevent" actually means 'precede' per the Greek). Why won't we alive on earth 'precede' those 'asleep' saints? It's because they are already... there, with Him (to be absent from the body is.... ). Then Paul showed at Christ's coming, those of us still alive on earth are "caught up" (harpazo) to be with Him and His alseep saints He brings with Him. But brings with Him to where??? To this earth, to Jerusalem, for that's where He is to return to with His whole... Church at His coming per Acts 1 and Zechariah 14. This also is what those Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scriptures are showing us, complete agreement with 1 Thess.4. But instead what do the Pre-trib Rapture doctors do? They instead declare a rapture of the saints on earth to Heaven to wait out the tribulation timing, and then return with the alseep saints after the tribulation. But that idea is not written in 1 Thess.4. They SPIRITUALIZE not only where the "mansions" will be, but also the caught up in the air meaning to where it won't agree with 1 Cor.15, those Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scriptures, nor many other Scriptures that reveal Christ's coming and gathering of His whole Church as the final event coinciding with the end this present world age. These Seals, Trumpets and Bowl Judgments are all in sequential order. They do not begin until God gives the scroll to the Lamb/Christ. No, that's just the sequential order you're having to READ them in. It's because of how Apostle John wrote down the visions he was given. But not everything is in the order the events will occur. An example? In Rev.6 the first event mentioned is the rider on the white horse, coming to conquer, wielding a bow of cheap fabric and a crown. Because it's the first event mentioned, we assume it is the 1st Seal. Is that our Lord Jesus or is that the coming Antichrist? Doesn't matter at this point when reading there, because by other Scripture warnings from our Lord Jesus and His Apostles and OT prophets we should realize that the Antichrist doesn't show up until later in the process. And if that's our Lord Jesus since He returns on a white horse, then what's He doing showing up prior to all the other Seals, and we haven't even gotten to the Trumpets and Vials yet? So why... is that rider on the white horse given first there in Rev.6? It's because that first Rev.6 event is about the Antichrist planning to come on a white horse LIKE our Lord Jesus, in order to 'deceive'. Yet even that still would not be on the 1st Seal, it's out of order of the events even for the Antichrist's time of showing up. That event is shown first because... that is the 'order' our Lord Jesus gave those Rev.6 signs in His Olivet Discourse (Matt.24; Mark 13; Luke 21). Our Lord Jesus' first... major warning in His Olivet Discourse was to not allow any man... to deceive us. Later in His Olivet Discourse He goes into more detail about the Antichrist/pseudo-Christ deception. But He made not being deceived His first major warning, so that being given first has huge... importance to His Church. Then the rest of the Rev.6 Seals follow the flow of the signs He gave in His Olivet Discourse. Then there's the matter of His warning to His Church 'within'... the 6th Vial timing of Rev.16:15 to not be deceived because He comes "as a thief". Then there's the matter of His reign shown to have begun right after the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe of Rev.11. That's not to mention that on the 6th Seal the wicked and deceived see Him and want to hide from Him because it is the time of His Wrath upon the wicked. Because of that order, it does not require one to be a rocket scientist to grasp that He gave us a certain number of signs for the end time events, and that they parallel between the descriptions in the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials, with the final Sign being that of His coming and gathering of His Church on the "day of the Lord." We as the Bride are already in the Fathers House per John 14, No, you are not. You are still right here on earth speaking through the Internet. Nor is The Father's House yet established on earth, because that is where... it will be per the Ezekiel 40 forward chapters, which is where those "mansions" Jesus promised will be when He returns to bring His Holy City upon this earth where Jerusalem is today. We as the description of the five wise virgins have been Raptured, the five foolish virgins have been left behind with the rest of mankind. That left behind idea for Christ's Church is nowhere... written in God's Word. Jesus never... said any such thing. But what He did say about the first one 'taken' in the field when His Apostles asked Him, "Where, Lord?", was that wheresoever the dead carcase is, that's where the eagles will be gathered together (Luke 17; Matt.24:28). Did you not know that the first one 'taken' is like a dead "carcase"? How could that ever apply to one of Christ's saints that He gathers on the day of His coming? To not understand that "carcase" is not to apply to His Faithful, then it should be very, very easy to know who that will apply to, i.e., the spiritually dead, those deceived by the coming Antichrist who will play God in Jerusalem. So, did you not know that Luke 17 first 'taken' idea is where the Pre-trib Rapture doctors got you 'left-behind' idea? How is it they say the one left behind means the deceived/wicked when our Lord Jesus showed those first ones 'taken' are like the "carcase" (dead)? Yes we are the ones being gathered from One end of Heaven to the other. This is a gathering for us to view the Second Coming. We are not being gathered from the earth (four winds). No, we who are alive and remain on earth up to Christ's coming will not... be gathered from one end of heaven to the other, for that is only... about the 'asleep' saints who have already died in Christ. Like Paul said in 1 Thess.4, we in no wise shall precede ("prevent") those 'asleep' saints who have already died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jesse Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Salty. What about rev.14:14--20? Are you just going to ignore those scriptures? jesse, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 Salty. What about rev.14:14--20? Are you just going to ignore those scriptures? jesse, I don't ignore Rev.14 about the 144,000. But I don't ignore those in Rev.15 either, nor the "great multitude" of Rev.7 either. I've mentioned this pattern between believing Israel and believing Gentiles per God's Word before. That's the pattern in Rev.7, and that's the pattern in Rev.14 thru 15 also. It is the pattern of Christ's Church per Apostle Paul in regards to the Body of Christ of both believing Israelite and believing Gentiles as One Body, not two separate ones. Now the Rev.14:14-20 Scripture is about the end of this world, God's Wrath upon the wicked. But that is not the only Scripture to get a full picture of what all happens on that, for that is the same day of Christ's coming to gather His Church also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hindsfeet. You are only asking todays scribes for answers. There is no rapture in scripture. All true christians will be resurrected or changed in a wink of an eye at the coming. The 144000 will be first,because they are the first fruits. See rev. 14:1. We only see 144000 with the lamb; not the majority. jesse. Sorry Jesse, that is not the truth. In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, the word harpazo is used, being translated to "caught up" or "snatched away". The term rapture was derived by the Latin word ratura when the Greek was translated to Latin. We read in scripture that the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are alive and remain will be caught up to be with Christ in the clouds. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. The 144,000 remain alive and follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They are not the first resurrected, but are the first fruits of God and to the Lamb. The "rapture" is an event that is completely different than the 144,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jesse Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Salty. What about rev.14:14--20? Are you just going to ignore those scriptures? jesse, I don't ignore Rev.14 about the 144,000. But I don't ignore those in Rev.15 either, nor the "great multitude" of Rev.7 either. I've mentioned this pattern between believing Israel and believing Gentiles per God's Word before. That's the pattern in Rev.7, and that's the pattern in Rev.14 thru 15 also. It is the pattern of Christ's Church per Apostle Paul in regards to the Body of Christ of both believing Israelite and believing Gentiles as One Body, not two separate ones. Now the Rev.14:14-20 Scripture is about the end of this world, God's Wrath upon the wicked. But that is not the only Scripture to get a full picture of what all happens on that, for that is the same day of Christ's coming to gather His Church also. There will be one second coming,the Word of God with the sword out of his mouth.With His spoken word;He destroys by command. He will be in the air.and the angels will harvest the wheat first,then armageddon,when the grapes are put through the wine press. Before this the armies will be gathered to one place,then put through the wine press. God's wrath will fall upon christians as well ;all with no seal of God. rev 9:4. Only 144k will have the seal, not the majority. The church will be one,but not now,The jews are the broken off natural olive branches,but will be grafted back on to the tree(Jesus) during the thousand year kingdom. Christians are the wild olive branches grafted to the natural olive tree,But they have been found wanting. Therefore they need to go through the test of tribulation,to make them white. Not only last days christians, but since day one,they have not worshipped God in truth.Lip worship is the word. The multitudes consists of many generations of christians that also have gone through their day of tribulation. Jer.25:34--37. 38.For their land is desolate. Those are very harsh words from God. God is not just angry;but fiercely angry. jesse, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I don't think that pre-Trib believers need to be told what they believe. That is awful presumptuous. And the Rapture is one event, not two. But it is a waste of time to debate this issue with one who does not believe in the pre-Trib Rapture as everyone is positive that they are correct. That is all I have to say and won't be reading or replying any further. Good Day! I dont think pre trib believers know what they believe Hope to see you all in the rapture after the tribulation How presumptuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 18, 2014 This is a clear statement from our Lord Jesus Christ who said that He will be coming “immediately after the tribulation” and not before, so how can Christians be with Him in Heaven during the Great Tribulation? Supporters of the Secret Rapture teach there are two phases of the Lord’s Return. In the first phase Jesus will come secretly to take believers with Him to Heaven, and in the second phase, which is after the Great Tribulation, our Lord will return with the saints. Although they do not like to admit it but they are suggesting that our Lord Jesus Christ will have a Third Coming. Where in the Bible does it say that? this theory of the Secret Rapture and the Third Coming is completely flawed. No where in the bible teaches part 1 and part two of the 1st resurrection The Church will be raptured before the onset of the Tribulation. The Church is the Bride. The Bridegroom, Jesus, will call for His bride with a shout and take her to His FATHER"S HOUSE to be wed (this is all according to the ancient Hebrew Wedding Tradition, to which God's word alludes.). The Bride and Bridegroom will come to establish their own HOUSEHOLD or Kingdom on Earth, presenting themselves to the masses at Jesus' Second Coming after seven years (days) of feasting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jesse Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I don't think that pre-Trib believers need to be told what they believe. That is awful presumptuous. And the Rapture is one event, not two. But it is a waste of time to debate this issue with one who does not believe in the pre-Trib Rapture as everyone is positive that they are correct. That is all I have to say and won't be reading or replying any further. Good Day! I dont think pre trib believers know what they believe Hope to see you all in the rapture after the tribulation How presumptuous. Hi Floatingaxe. I know exactly how you feel. To believe in the pre trib, one have to break many scriptures. And they dont seem to worry about that. You have a good day. jesse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I don't think that pre-Trib believers need to be told what they believe. That is awful presumptuous. And the Rapture is one event, not two. But it is a waste of time to debate this issue with one who does not believe in the pre-Trib Rapture as everyone is positive that they are correct. That is all I have to say and won't be reading or replying any further. Good Day! I dont think pre trib believers know what they believe Hope to see you all in the rapture after the tribulation How presumptuous. Hi Floatingaxe. I know exactly how you feel. To believe in the pre trib, one have to break many scriptures. And they dont seem to worry about that. You have a good day. jesse. That is completely untrue, and an accusation based in ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2014 There will be one second coming,the Word of God with the sword out of his mouth.With His spoken word;He destroys by command. He will be in the air.and the angels will harvest the wheat first,then armageddon,when the grapes are put through the wine press. Before this the armies will be gathered to one place,then put through the wine press. God's wrath will fall upon christians as well ;all with no seal of God. rev 9:4. Only 144k will have the seal, not the majority. The church will be one,but not now,The jews are the broken off natural olive branches,but will be grafted back on to the tree(Jesus) during the thousand year kingdom. No, not really, it just takes more time to read about the events in Revelation that will occur on the last day than it takes for them to happen. Our Heavenly Father through His OT prophets showed the events of the day of The Lord will occur suddenly, at an instant. That is where Apostle Paul got the "twinkling of an eye" expression and "sudden destruction" idea. The event of God's consuming fire poured out on the earth is what will produce the change of corruptible bodies to the body of incorruption. It won't harm us because it's God's consuming fire from Him, not the kind of fire we think of in war movies. He even gave us a picture of this in Dan.3 with the hot firery furnace where His were in it, and their clothes didn't even smell of smoke when they came out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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