Salty Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2014 Hi Floatingaxe. I know exactly how you feel. To believe in the pre trib, one have to break many scriptures. And they dont seem to worry about that. You have a good day. jesse. I think you missed Floatingaxe's response in that post, which shows he/she agrees with the Pre-trib secret Rapture theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jesse Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Hi Floatingaxe. I know exactly how you feel. To believe in the pre trib, one have to break many scriptures. And they dont seem to worry about that. You have a good day. jesse. I think you missed Floatingaxe's response in that post, which shows he/she agrees with the Pre-trib secret Rapture theory. Salty. I noticed that when he called me ignorant. I must have touched a raw nerve.that;s ok. Pre trib says; All taken up first ;then the tribulation to purify them through the fire,and given white robes. Post trib says. The majority is to go through the fire of tribulation; made white;then resurrected. I wash my apples first before I eat it. Not the other way around. Eat first;then wash? I think this is commonsense. jesse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tevans9129 Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 39 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/03/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air According to your words above, the Lord descends and we are "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air". This is the catching away, the departure, the rapture. The Lord's feet do not touch the ground. When Jesus came the first time He was born and placed in a manger. His second coming will be when he puts His feet on the Mount of Olives. The rapture, catching away, caught up in the air to meet Him - is not the second coming. When He comes again He will not come as an infant He will come as the King of kings and Lord of lords with the armies of heaven and the Bride. I agree completely, it seems that those who are opposed to pre-trib rapture fail to notice there is no scripture supporting Jesus coming to earth during the rapture. He comes down from heaven and calls the belivers to meet Him in the air, not on the ground. Not only that, they seem to ignore all the verses promising the belivers will escape the wrath of God during the tribulation. Edited August 18, 2014 by tevans9129 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2014 I agree completely, it seems that those who are opposed to pre-trib rapture fail to notice there is no scripture supporting Jesus coming to earth during the rapture. He comes down from heaven and calls the belivers to meet Him in the air, not on the ground. Not only that, they seem to ignore all the verses promising the belivers will escape the wrath of God during the tribulation. Yes there is Scripture support of where our Lord Jesus goes when He returns. It's written in Zech.14 and in Acts 1, both pointing to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, on earth. Obviously you have not read that. It doesn't need to be included in 1 Thess.4, for the Zechariah 14 Scripture about His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives was already written long before. Apostle Paul was scholar of the Old Testament, so no since in implying that he didn't know about that Zech.14 Scripture either. There are no verses about physically escaping the tribulation, which is NOT... the time when God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked anyway. The only idea of 'escape' given is about escaping the temptation of false worship during the tribulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tevans9129 Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 39 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/03/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2014 A lot of elders have died over the past 2000 years...... to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The Bible doesn't say the elders have been raptured to heaven, it was Marv that said that !!!!!!! with Jesse backing him up. That's the problem with the pre-trib doctrine, it's all just the opinions of men, not the word of God. Hi Enoch, do you have some explanations for the following promises that believers will not suffer the wrath of God? Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tevans9129 Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 39 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/03/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2014 For those wanting to make progress in understanding our Lord's Book of Revelation, it's important to realize He was covering 7 main signs of the end, with three separate parallels. That can only be done once one discovers it's most important to understand each of the events of the seals, trumpets, and vials instead of trying to determine some numerical chronology with how John was given to see and write them down. For example, our Lord Jesus on the 6th vial with Rev.16:15 is giving a warning to His Church on earth to keep their garments lest they walk naked, for He will come "as a thief". Only those of His Church have those garments, so He was not speaking to unbelievers. And the very next 7th vial is about the time of Armageddon, which is a "day of The LORD" type event, the day of His second coming. By that He showed His coming to gather His Church on earth has still not happened yet on the 6th vial. And if you look at the type of events to occur on the 7th trumpet, 6th seal, and 7th vial, you'll find they parallel each other. In Christ's Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, He covered 7 main signs that directly parallel the events of the seals in Rev.6. And the very last sign He gave was that of His coming and gathering of His Church after the tribulation. Hi Salty, a couple of questions if I may. Do you believe in dispensations in scripture? Who Is Matthew 24 written to? What are your thoughts on Replacement Theology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2014 Hi Enoch, do you have some explanations for the following promises that believers will not suffer the wrath of God? Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. Once again, the time of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked is on the last day of this present world when Jesus returns. It is not the tribulation timing. The Rev.3:10 Scripture is a promise to spare His elect there from the coming 'temptation' which the tribulation is about. It is not about physical removal. And the fact that how you interpret that idea there, with it being nowhere written in the very Scriptures which gives the details of Christ's coming and our gathering, further shows how you're idea is grasping at straws in order to support the Pre-trib Rapture theory of men. Your quote of 1 Thess.5:9 omits the timing issues Apostle Paul gave in that chapter. That's to slice and dice, not to come to understanding in God's Word. The 1 Thess.1:10 verse is about the time of God's cup of wrath, which again is for the very last day of this present world, not for during the tribulation. Also, we were given an example of His protection in Dan.3 involving the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary. Jesus was shown in... that hot furnace with His servants, and they came out of it with their clothes not even smelling of smoke. But the servants of the king of Babylon that only went near that furnace were immediately burned up. That is what God's consuming fire will do on the last day of this world. It will not harm His Faithful who wait for His Son to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2014 Hi Salty, a couple of questions if I may. Do you believe in dispensations in scripture? Who Is Matthew 24 written to? What are your thoughts on Replacement Theology? Do you honestly think I don't know that Pre-trib Rapture doctrine game? Dispensationalism came from John Darby, the same one who got the pre-trib secret rapture idea rolling in Britain in the 1830's, which then spread to the Americas. For over 1,800 years, the Christian Church held to a post-trib coming of our Lord Jesus and gathering of His Church. So why would I even think about trusting what that one man John Darby believed and taught? Is he my Lord? Is he your Lord? If not, then listen to our True Lord Jesus in His Word. Their idea that Matt.24 is written only to Israel is a grand huge joke too! Especially when those present our Lord Jesus was speaking that to represent the early foundation of His Church! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2014 Salty So we are not now in the dispensation of Grace. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tevans9129 Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 39 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/03/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2014 I agree completely, it seems that those who are opposed to pre-trib rapture fail to notice there is no scripture supporting Jesus coming to earth during the rapture. He comes down from heaven and calls the belivers to meet Him in the air, not on the ground. Not only that, they seem to ignore all the verses promising the belivers will escape the wrath of God during the tribulation. Yes there is Scripture support of where our Lord Jesus goes when He returns. It's written in Zech.14 and in Acts 1, both pointing to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, on earth. Obviously you have not read that. It doesn't need to be included in 1 Thess.4, for the Zechariah 14 Scripture about His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives was already written long before. Apostle Paul was scholar of the Old Testament, so no since in implying that he didn't know about that Zech.14 Scripture either. There are no verses about physically escaping the tribulation, which is NOT... the time when God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked anyway. The only idea of 'escape' given is about escaping the temptation of false worship during the tribulation. 1) Thanks for the reply Salty. Yes there is Scripture support of where our Lord Jesus goes when He returns. 2) Was my comment about Jesus’ return to earth, or was it about Him coming down from heaven to call believers up to meet Him in the air? 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 3) Can you point out where there is anything in those verses about Jesus coming to earth? 4) Does it make sense that Jesus would come to earth to call believers to meet Him in the air? It's written in Zech.14 and in Acts 1, both pointing to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, on earth. Obviously you have not read that. 5) Not true Salty, I have read Zechariah many times. Actually, you cannot reference a verse that I have not read from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21. It doesn't need to be included in 1 Thess.4, for the Zechariah 14 Scripture about His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives was already written long before. 6) Can you quote one verse in Zech 14 that is directed toward Christians? 6a) I would be happy to go through the chapter verse-by-verse with you if you have an interest. I would request that we would both agree to answer all questions asked if you are interested in such a discussion. Apostle Paul was scholar of the Old Testament, so no since in implying that he didn't know about that Zech.14 Scripture either. 7) Where did I imply that Paul knew nothing about Zech 14? There are no verses about physically escaping the tribulation, 8) OK, to whom and for what are the following verses addressing? 8a) I am not speaking of tribulations and persecutions, I am speaking of God’s wrath as stated in scripture. Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 8b) When is the “day of wrath” of God? Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 8c) When is this “hour of testing”, who is it promised to, how is it accomplished and can you quote scripture as it is written supporting your answers? Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 8d) Who, when and how “shall be saved from the wrath of God? 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 8e) Does that say anything about persecution or tribulation or is it specific to God’s wrath? 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. 8f) What “wrath to come” is Jesus going to rescue us from? which is NOT... the time when God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked anyway. The only idea of 'escape' given is about escaping the temptation of false worship during the tribulation. 9) I disagree but will await your answers to the above questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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