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PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain


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The Bible lists 2 resurrections of a massive amount of bodies remaining, the rapture verses say the dead in Christ rise first then we which are alive and remain will join them in the air. What we have here in Rev. 20 shows when these 2 resurrections happen, the only problem is the pre-trib doctrine teaches of a resurrection happening before the tribulation so the church can skip out before the tribulation starts, the problem is the Bible doesn't say anything about such a resurrection. We might ought to go with what the Bible says, not what some feel good doctrine teaches.

Here is what I think the BIBLE says. Tell me what you think.

As of today, I'm leaning toward a checkout (rapture) from verses 29-31 in Matthew 24. This is from the Bible, not made up. Although maybe my exegesis is not accurate, which is always a chance.

The abomination of desolation is in verse 15 of that chapter, so this is why I think the rapture occurs AFTER the abomination of desolation, which then puts the rapture in the great tribulation, sometime in the last 3.5 years of Daniels 70th week. I surmise the rapture will be SHORTLY after the abomination.

Now, as for my pre 70th week rapture brothers, trust me, they are not just making this up. They do have plenty of scripture they use to come up with this theory. It just isn't from some Scotland lady back in the 1800s with no biblical support. I would not mock them or talk down to these people because they are sincere bible believers too.

Like I previously said, we all seem to be studying the word very intently but are interpreting the word differently. No need to get un brotherly like toward one another over this.

If you want to get un brotherly over a group of believers, find a bunch of lukewarm believers who are carnal, fleshy, sinful, and worldly and jump all over them.

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Marv, you and I have this discussion before, brother you are among the group that wants to add a resurrection so your belief in the pre-trib doctrine is feasible. We might ought to go with what the Bible says," let Gods Word be true and every mans a liar."

Enoch 2010

 

There are only two Resurrections; One for the Just, the Second for the Unjust.  You are confused by the terms "First and Second", which does not mean open and shut and done with.  Christ is the first into the Resurrection for the Just, The Bride goes next (secondly) into the Resurrection for the Just.  The Righteous dead of Israel and the tribulation saints possibly are the next group to go into the Resurrection for the Just  just before the Mill.  Then the rest of the OT saints and followed after the Mill by those who did not follow Satan in the final rebellion.  All these groups are included in the First Resurrection, those who have their names written in the Lambs Book of Life.  All others fall into the Resurrection for the Unjust, the A/C and False Prophet being the first fruits of this Resurrection (Also referred to as the Second Resurrection).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Marv, you and I have this discussion before, brother you are among the group that wants to add a resurrection so your belief in the pre-trib doctrine is feasible. We might ought to go with what the Bible says," let Gods Word be true and every mans a liar."

Enoch 2010

 

There are only two Resurrections; One for the Just, the Second for the Unjust.  You are confused by the terms "First and Second", which does not mean open and shut and done with.  Christ is the first into the Resurrection for the Just, The Bride goes next (secondly) into the Resurrection for the Just.  The Righteous dead of Israel and the tribulation saints possibly are the next group to go into the Resurrection for the Just  just before the Mill.  Then the rest of the OT saints and followed after the Mill by those who did not follow Satan in the final rebellion.  All these groups are included in the First Resurrection, those who have their names written in the Lambs Book of Life.  All others fall into the Resurrection for the Unjust, the A/C and False Prophet being the first fruits of this Resurrection (Also referred to as the Second Resurrection).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

This makes a lot of sense Marv. Thanks.

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Just to be clear, Last trumpet= Rosh HashanahThe rapture will occur during the Jewish Festival of the Feast of the Trumpets.Both the 1 Corinthians and 1 Thess passages describe the rapture preceded by this "last" trumpet call.

I believe that is correct, just as the first 4 spring feasts were fulfilled by Christ in the first century, so will the 3 final feasts be fulfilled upon His return, beginning with Rosh Hashanah (feast of trumpets). These are not similar trumpets. The last trump is the final blast of 100, which begins when the first sliver of the new moon is sighted, which also begins the seventh month of the Hebrew calendar (Tishri).I do not believe the seventh trumpet can possibly be the rapture, because it is part of god's wrath. Both the rapture and martyr's will be gone before this, as God will not avenge the martyr's blood until all have been killed (Rev. 6:9-11).Cheers

 

Hey thunder,I'm going to reread your book this spring break for me, but it don't recall you analyzing Rev 6 very much -the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

 

I hope you don't read it so fast next time. It's not like a novel, where you can just breeze through it. There is a ton of scripture to chew on. Most people tell me they had to read it twice and that they usually catch a lot more the second time. ** I believe I only mentioned Rev. 6 once briefly, because I did not want to venture too far off course from the message the Lord gave me.  

If you did, I will find it I'm sure. However, for everyone's benefit, how do you fit in rev 6 (the seals) into the timeline? Thanks.

Honestly, I have no idea how to prove when Rev. 6 begins. Right now, I would guess that it begins either during the start of the 70th week or possibly after the AoD, but it's clearly an overview of a general time that ends just before God's wrath avenges the martyr's blood. The rapture was not part of the focus here, but the next scene John saw (Rev. 7) was the great multitude standing before the throne and before the Lamb, but it does not say when they got there. They were already there.Cheers

 

I feel better. I really didn't miss any great insight on Rev 6 in your book because you gave none. Lol

 

Well, you must have been speeding along and jumped right over it. I put all those scripture passages in there to sort of act as speed bumps and to open some eyes. But you actually had me doubting myself, there for a minute. But I found it and you deserve a speeding ticket, :lightbulb2: but I'm gonna let you off with a warning this time. :mgcop:

 

There it is in chapter 3 in the last paragraph - page 80.  But like I thought, it's only a brief mention, just to prove a minor point.

 

Thanks for keeping me on my toes, brother.

 

Cheers

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Okay, I see where you are at - thank you for taking the time and sharing that with me. You just gave me even more fodder to consider,,and have me neglect my duties ;)

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That's 4 first resurrections for the just and 1 for the unjust in your pre-trib doctrine marv, you can add as many as you want in this forum but Gods word says only 2, and they are both after the tribulation.

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Hey Enoch, I haven't read this entire thread, but who do the post tribbies believe will be at the sheep and goats judgment if Jesus Raptured the believers just before he returns? It seems to me there would have to be only goats. I speculate they must believe the people who are not believers but also did not take the mark of the beast may be sheep. Is this correct?

I'm not sure what Enoch's answer will be, but I believe they are entire nations

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all NATIONS: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left

 

I think it's important to remember that the sheep and goats is taken out of the parable of talents, to show the sign of the end of the age, which is the conclusion of Christ' disciple's question in (Matt. 24:3). But it's just as important to know that parables are just little stories that contain little clues for the wise to understand, yet the foolish will not get it. They aren't supposed to be taken in the literal sense. The sheep and goats is a story that points to Armageddon and Joel 3:2, when God gathers all nations (armies) to battle near Jerusalem. Then they will turn and attack Christ and His army. All of these are among the goats that will be killed as judgment that keeps them from entering the millennial kingdom. He won't bring entire nations to this battle, nor will He judge the land that they come from then. Included in their numbers will be the beast, the false prophet and everyone who takes the mark will be killed as well. This will be about half of the world's population when all is said and done. The other half are the survivors of the nations that did not take the mark of the beast and the remnant that flees to the mountains after the abomination of desolation (sheep). This is the final judgment seen in Rev. 11:18. This is not the Church being judged here. The sheep that enter into the millennium here are not saints, for they will be ruled over by the saints that return with Christ.

Judgment begins with the House of God (1 Pet.4:17), so if you want to understand Christ rendering His judgment of the saints then you need to back up. Saints judgment/rewards begin at the gathering of the elect (Matt.24:30-31), which Christ provides many angles in the parables that follow all the way down to (Matt.25:30).

Cheers

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Okay, I see where you are at - thank you for taking the time and sharing that with me. You just gave me even more fodder to consider,,and have me neglect my duties ;)

 

My pleasure, but I sure hope I don't get you into any trouble. If I do, just blame it on me. Besides, I haven't had my fair share of abuse today. :grin:

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Just to be clear, Last trumpet= Rosh HashanahThe rapture will occur during the Jewish Festival of the Feast of the Trumpets.Both the 1 Corinthians and 1 Thess passages describe the rapture preceded by this "last" trumpet call.

I believe that is correct, just as the first 4 spring feasts were fulfilled by Christ in the first century, so will the 3 final feasts be fulfilled upon His return, beginning with Rosh Hashanah (feast of trumpets). These are not similar trumpets. The last trump is the final blast of 100, which begins when the first sliver of the new moon is sighted, which also begins the seventh month of the Hebrew calendar (Tishri).I do not believe the seventh trumpet can possibly be the rapture, because it is part of god's wrath. Both the rapture and martyr's will be gone before this, as God will not avenge the martyr's blood until all have been killed (Rev. 6:9-11).Cheers

Hey thunder,I'm going to reread your book this spring break for me, but it don't recall you analyzing Rev 6 very much -the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

I hope you don't read it so fast next time. It's not like a novel, where you can just breeze through it. There is a ton of scripture to chew on. Most people tell me they had to read it twice and that they usually catch a lot more the second time. ** I believe I only mentioned Rev. 6 once briefly, because I did not want to venture too far off course from the message the Lord gave me.  

If you did, I will find it I'm sure. However, for everyone's benefit, how do you fit in rev 6 (the seals) into the timeline? Thanks.

Honestly, I have no idea how to prove when Rev. 6 begins. Right now, I would guess that it begins either during the start of the 70th week or possibly after the AoD, but it's clearly an overview of a general time that ends just before God's wrath avenges the martyr's blood. The rapture was not part of the focus here, but the next scene John saw (Rev. 7) was the great multitude standing before the throne and before the Lamb, but it does not say when they got there. They were already there.Cheers

Here is where I am confused-Rev 6:17

15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usf from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

It sounds like God's wrath begins here at verse 17. But if the seals, trumpets, and bowls run consecutively, then this puts the rapture before the trumpets. I like how you also interpret Rev 7 as the Raptured saints. I have thought that too, but many of my brothers disagree with me and think these are the trib saints.

Like you mentioned, where does the abomination of desolation fit into the timeline here? You said something interesting for me to ponder- maybe the seals begins after the AofD.

I don't think the body of Christ needs to worry about verse 17. This is an early view of God's wrath when he kills the goats during Armageddon. Once the last martyr is killed, that ends the resurrection of the just (Rev.20:4).  I was looking for something that someone said yesterday, about the martyrs in Rev. 6 being the martyrs of the entire age of grace, or something to that effect. But I could not find it, so I'll just post it here.

I believe the martyrs in Rev. 6 are the same ones the beast overcomes in Rev.13 (mark of the beast). I believe this for three reasons. First, God is waiting for them all to be killed before He unleashes His wrath, which is the Day of the Lord and/or Armageddon. Second, God would not be waiting for martyrs that were killed earlier. And third, these martyrs in Rev. 6 will receive a martyrs reward, but many of the martyrs before this time would have already been resurrected with the dead in Christ (chosen).

I don't believe the horses will literally ride, but instead they mark the things that will be happening in the world at those points in time. These will become very important when the time comes. Now I found something interesting in chapter 6, so I'm just going to post the entire thing here.

 

Revelation 6:

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

 

Not sure what to think of this first seal or when it begins.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

 

Not sure about this seal either, but the next one gets very interesting.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

 

Now this 3rd seal is very interesting.  I don't know how to tell when this will happen yet, but I believe I see how this will come into play.  I believe there will be a brief period of time, in between when the global economy collapses and the mark of the beast is finally implemented.  Our currencies will become worthless.  Gold and silver will probably still be valuable, but very few will have it.  No one will work for free, so they will set up a system where people can work for their food.  I can imagine the masses will hate this system so much that many unbelievers will beg for the mark of the beast. 

 

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

This 4th seal seems to be the result of the previous seal.  Millions will not survive.  They will die from hunger and I could imagine much chaos, looting, robbery, riots and violence.  Not sure about the beasts of the earth.

 

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

I can easily see that this is when the mark of the beast is finally implemented.  At first they will make it sound like it's what everyone has been waiting for, and those who take it will finally be able to buy and sell.  Then they will find out that a large number of people still will not take the mark and they will probably be labeled as terrorists or enemies of the state.  They will probably be thrown in jail for awhile to re-educate them into the new system.  Then when they still refuse to renounce their God and refuse the mark, then they will be beheaded

 

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

I'm beginning to think this is the second coming, because of the blood moon, which is known to fall on the feast of Tabernacles.   This is not the same phase of the moon that we see in Matt. 24:29, for then the moon will not give it's light.

Of course this is just speculation as I try to look ahead. But I believe this will be a very valuable chapter when things begin to push closer in real time.

Cheers

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Here is where I am confused-Rev 6:17

15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usf from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

It sounds like God's wrath begins here at verse 17. But if the seals, trumpets, and bowls run consecutively, then this puts the rapture before the trumpets. I like how you also interpret Rev 7 as the Raptured saints. I have thought that too, but many of my brothers disagree with me and think these are the trib saints.

Like you mentioned, where does the abomination of desolation fit into the timeline here? You said something interesting for me to ponder- maybe the seals begins after the AofD.

 

I don't think the body of Christ needs to worry about verse 17. This is an early view of God's wrath when he kills the goats during Armageddon. Once the last martyr is killed, that ends the resurrection of the just (Rev.20:4).

I was looking for something that someone said yesterday, about the martyrs in Rev. 6 being the martyrs of the entire age of grace, or something to that effect. But I could not find it, so I'll just post it here.

I believe the martyrs in Rev. 6 are the same ones the beast overcomes in Rev.13 (mark of the beast). I believe this for three reasons. First, God is waiting for them all to be killed before He unleashes His wrath, which is the Day of the Lord and/or Armageddon. Second, God would not be waiting for martyrs that were killed earlier. And third, these martyrs in Rev. 6 will receive a martyrs reward, but many of the martyrs before this time would have already been resurrected with the dead in Christ (chosen).

I don't believe the horses will literally ride, but instead they mark the things that will be happening in the world at those points in time. These will become very important when the time comes. Now I found something interesting in chapter 6, so I'm just going to post the entire thing here. Unfortunately, my lovely wife just informed me we gotta go somewhere, so I'll just have to continue/edit this later.

Revelation 6:

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

 

 

 

===================================================================

 

 

I don't think the body of Christ needs to worry about verse 17.

 

You're right.  "The Church", "Body of Christ", is Raptured prior to Daniels 70th Week and Rev 4.  IMHO, they are represented by the 24 Elders.  ( I will post rationale if queried)

 

 

This is an early view of God's wrath when he kills the goats during Armageddon.

 

Kills the Goats @ Armageddon?? :huh:   Please show us in Revelation where the GOATS are?  and Sheep for that matter?

 

Who's The LORD Treading Here??.....

 

(Revelation 19:15-16) "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

Moreover,  Where does he show the Goats being killed??....

 

(Matthew 25:41) " Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

 

 

Moreover, Moreover;  The Sheep.......... QUESTIONING the LORD as to Why they have been So Designated....

 

(Matthew 25:37-40) " Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?  {38}  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?  {39}  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

 

The Sheep are surprised!!   Why? How?  WHAT???      Then Jesus says....

 

{40}  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

 

I'll bet the Sheep Helped either the 144,000 or Tribulation Saints or BOTH.

 

 

I was looking for something that someone said yesterday, about the martyrs in Rev. 6 being the martyrs of the entire age of grace,

 

That would be me.....and that's who they are.

 

 

I believe the martyrs in Rev. 6 are the same ones the beast overcomes in Rev.13 (mark of the beast).

 

What in the World?

 

First, The Order/SEQUENCE of Judgements "Wrath" are:  1. Seven Seals, 2. Seven Trumpets, 3. Seven Vials.     <------------ In that Order!

 

The MARTYRS (As I said) are under the Alter when HE opened the 5th Seal in Chapter 6 of Revelation....

 

(Revelation 6:9) "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

 

And you said they (Souls Under the alter) are the ones from Rev 13....the ones the beast overcomes, right?

 

Well the Seventh Trumpet sounds here....

 

(Revelation 11:15) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

 

 

Questions: To line up with your "Thesis" above....

 

1.  Do you have Rev Chapter 13 Happening before Rev Chapter 6 (Seven Seals)?

 

2.  You have before the Fifth Seal is open, THE Events (The ones the beast overcomes) Occurring after the Seventh Trumpet (Rev 11:15)?? :huh:

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