PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[Montana Marv]

Enoch2021

 

Very encouraging and right on.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ARGOSY]

2 Thess 1

2 Thess 2

What say you pre-tribbers on these two chapters?

 

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Good Points and require much further study on my part.

 

However, I think a better question is; what say you with this...

 

First, What is the Purpose of Tribulation?  ....(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

 

So the purpose, is to push the Jews to the Wall and have them "Corporately" Petition the LORD to Return.  If you notice, every thing after Rev Chapter 4 is "Heavily Jewish".

 

Also throughout Scripture there is a definite differentiation between Israel and The "Church" and both with different destinies.

 

The Church is not appointed for GOD's Wrath.....(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"  and (Revelation 3:10) " Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

 

The Rapture.....

 

OT References:

 

(Isaiah 26:20-21) "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.  {21} For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain."

 

(Zephaniah 2:3) "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger."

 

(Psalms 27:5) "For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock."

 

NT, Biggie: 

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:17) "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

 

This brings us to a very important Doctrine....The Doctrine of Imminence:

 

There is no proceeding event...and believers are taught to conduct their lives in a moment to moment expectancy of Our Coming KING; its all through the NT (Phil 3:20; Titus 2:13; Heb 9:28; 1 Thess 1:10; 4:18, 5:6, Rev 22:20), and here....

 

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

 

Basically all positions (Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath-Post Trib) besides Pre-Trib, must deny the Doctrine of Imminence.  Why?....

 

Anybody with even cursory knowledge of Scripture, especially Daniel and Revelation, Could basically set their watch @ the Abomination of Desolation.

 

There is also the 70th Week of Daniel that reveals the Tribulation and The GREAT TRIBULATION (The Last 3 1/2 Years) that Christ spoke of demarcated with the AoD.

 

 

**Another BIGGIE "TYPE"..... The "Church" is Christ's Bride.  Hence:

 

An understanding of a Jewish Wedding (Jesus and HIS Bride "The Church") should be reckoned with here, IMHO.....

 

The Ketubah, Betrothal

 

- Payment of the Purchase Price 

- Bride Set Apart (Sanctified)

 

- Bridegroom departs to Father's House

- Prepares a Room Addition

**  Bride Prepares for IMMINENT Return (But She does not know WHEN)

 

-  Surprise Gathering  (See example with the 10 Virgins Parable)

-  Grooms arrival is Proceeded by a SHOUT

 

- Wedding

- 7 Day Marriage Supper

 

What's that Look Like??  :rolleyes:   A Model, Maybe 

 

The Post Trib Rapture Model...... Come lets get Married; then, I'm gonna beat the Living Daylights out of You,  then lets go have Dinner. 

 

 

7 (Shocking surprise) "Raptures" in Scripture:

 

Enoch

Elijah

Jesus

Philip

Paul

Body of Christ

John (Rev 4:1)

 

Other "TYPES":

 

Enoch and The Flood of Noah.

Isaac's absence after his offer offering..... curiously, he's edited out of Scripture until 2 chapters later when he's United with His Bride.

Where was Ruth (Gentile Bride) during the Threshing Floor Scene?

Daniel's absence from the Fiery Furnace.

 

 

Post Trib Rapture Problems:

 

1.  Denies The Doctrine of Imminence.

2.  Requires the Church to be here During the 70th Week (Israel and The Church are Mutually Exclusive, Dan 9: 24).

3.  The Church experiences GOD'S Wrath.

4.  How can the Bride (Church) come with Jesus if she's not Raptured First?

5.  Who's going to populate the Millennium?

6.  Who are the "Sheep and Goat" Judgement?  (Matthew 25)

7.  How can the Virgin's of Matthew 25 buy oil without the mark of the beast?

 

 

Very Interesting:

 

The Seven Churches (The Seven Lampstands):  Identifies the Church Rev 1:20

 

They are on the Earth in Rev Chapter 1.  They are in Heaven when John Arrives Chapter 4:5

 

One Church Promised not to go into the Great Tribulation.

 

The 24 Elders

 

-  Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10)

-  only three are Identified as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US )

- They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll

- Tribulation begins when the Scroll is Unsealed

 

 

Just some thoughts.

So you can't answer my questions regarding verses that contradict the pre-trib view, yet you wish me to answer your questions. Bring it on! lol no problem.

1) Firstly regarding the purpose of tribulation, you quoted a scripture that refers to the tribulation of Jews. I believe verses that refer to the persecution of Christians would be more applicable.

Rev 2 gives one reason for persecution of Christians: Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison TO TEST YOU, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

Daniel 7, Rev 12, and Rev 13 refer to a 3.5 year period of persecution towards the end. The end-times persecution of believers is also referred to in Rev 6 (the martyrs) and Rev 20 (the beheaded).

2) Regarding wrath.... the verse is referring to the wrath of eternity, not persecutions:

For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Other than the 5 verses I quoted above that do promise persecution for believers, 1 Thess 2 says that the relief from persecutions for pre-trib believers only occurs at the second coming, not an earlier rapture.

Actually Jesus himself promises persecutions, so I believe that your application of a verse about wrath to us believers avoiding persecutions during the tribulation is an inaccurate principle that you are proposing. Jesus never promised that we would avoid persecution, in fact he expects persecutions:

Mark 10:30

no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

1 Thessalonians 3:7

Therefore, brothers and sisters, in all our distress and persecution we were encouraged about you because of your faith

History is full of examples of Christian persecution and so I believe you are incorrect to apply a verse about avoiding wrath through salvation to avoiding troubles here on earth.

3) The rapture will occur. I prefer the term "resurrection" but have no problem with calling it the rapture. I believe it occurs at the end of the tribulation. I believe we will be raptured without experiencing the wrath on the day of the Lord. ie we will escape the great earthquake, the fire and destruction and judgements and wrath on that day because we will be raptured. None of the verses you quoted contradicts this view.

4) Regarding imminence, I believe we must expect the second coming soon but their are preceding signs, for example as described in 2 Thess 2.

Of your supporting verses, none of them support your imminence argument:

Phil 3:20 says we eagerly await Jesus. Of course we do.

Titus 2:13 refers to us waiting for Jesus to appear.

Hebrews 9:28 also refers to us waiting for Him.

1 Thess 1:10 also refers to us waiting for Him

1 Thess 4 refers to the rapture but does not even hint at imminence

1 Thess 5 supports my position of non -imminence: IT WILL NOT SURPRISE US: Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are NOT IN THE DARKNESS SO THAT THIS DAY SHOULD SURPRISE YOU LIKE A THIEF. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.

to be continued in my next post.......

[Spock]

Those that  with that adhere to  the  Secret Rapture doctrine describes  it as The Great Escape from the Great Tribulation at the End of This Age. It is a very comforting doctrine and  many hold on to it. Many believe that Jesus will secretly come and 'Rapture' His Church out of the Earth and take them back with Him to Heaven, either before the Tribulation (Pre-Tribulation Rapture), or half way through the Tribulation, the final three and a half years (Mid-Tribulation Rapture).

 

They believe that they will escape all the evils and horrors of the Tribulation, the Anti-Christ mark of the beast system, the plagues of God, the time of war and destruction on the Earth. In Heaven they enjoy the marriage supper of the Lamb with Jesus while those left on the Earth, who are saved during the Tribulation have to endure all the trials and suffering to the very end of the Tribulation.

 

After the Tribulation Jesus then comes back with His Saints, resurrects the remnant of His Church and they all reign with Him on the Earth   or in heaven This is still to be debated  for a thousand years. The fact is, that those who hold on to this belief will not be ready for what is to come upon them. They will not be ready because they have believed in a lie. The Beast system is unfolding before our very eyes and we are still hear! We have not been Raptured!

 

Thus they will take the mark of the beast and not know it 

 

 

 

Greetings friend,

I'm not a dogmatic pre tribber, and actually am not sure what I am, but I for one do not believe most of the pre tribbers will be so unaware and unprepared if they are still here after the abomination of desolation and the AC is doing his mark of the beast thing in order to buy or sell. 

 

Methinks MOST Bible believing Christians, be it pre trib, mid trib, or post trib, read their Bibles and know the consequences of taking the mark of the beast.

 

Give them a little more credit please and try not to be so black and white about gray matters.

 

Brother Spock

[ARGOSY]

Basically all positions (Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath-Post Trib) besides Pre-Trib, must deny the Doctrine of Imminence.  Why?....

 

Anybody with even cursory knowledge of Scripture, especially Daniel and Revelation, Could basically set their watch @ the Abomination of Desolation.

 

There is also the 70th Week of Daniel that reveals the Tribulation and The GREAT TRIBULATION (The Last 3 1/2 Years) that Christ spoke of demarcated with the AoD.

 

 

**Another BIGGIE "TYPE"..... The "Church" is Christ's Bride.  Hence:

 

An understanding of a Jewish Wedding (Jesus and HIS Bride "The Church") should be reckoned with here, IMHO.....

 

The Ketubah, Betrothal

 

- Payment of the Purchase Price 

- Bride Set Apart (Sanctified)

 

- Bridegroom departs to Father's House

- Prepares a Room Addition

**  Bride Prepares for IMMINENT Return (But She does not know WHEN)

 

-  Surprise Gathering  (See example with the 10 Virgins Parable)

-  Grooms arrival is Proceeded by a SHOUT

 

- Wedding

- 7 Day Marriage Supper

 

What's that Look Like??  :rolleyes:   A Model, Maybe 

 

The Post Trib Rapture Model...... Come lets get Married; then, I'm gonna beat the Living Daylights out of You,  then lets go have Dinner. 

 

 

7 (Shocking surprise) "Raptures" in Scripture:

 

Enoch

Elijah

Jesus

Philip

Paul

Body of Christ

John (Rev 4:1)

 

Other "TYPES":

 

Enoch and The Flood of Noah.

Isaac's absence after his offer offering..... curiously, he's edited out of Scripture until 2 chapters later when he's United with His Bride.

Where was Ruth (Gentile Bride) during the Threshing Floor Scene?

Daniel's absence from the Fiery Furnace.

 

 

Post Trib Rapture Problems:

 

1.  Denies The Doctrine of Imminence.

2.  Requires the Church to be here During the 70th Week (Israel and The Church are Mutually Exclusive, Dan 9: 24).

3.  The Church experiences GOD'S Wrath.

4.  How can the Bride (Church) come with Jesus if she's not Raptured First?

5.  Who's going to populate the Millennium?

6.  Who are the "Sheep and Goat" Judgement?  (Matthew 25)

7.  How can the Virgin's of Matthew 25 buy oil without the mark of the beast?

 

 

Very Interesting:

 

The Seven Churches (The Seven Lampstands):  Identifies the Church Rev 1:20

 

They are on the Earth in Rev Chapter 1.  They are in Heaven when John Arrives Chapter 4:5

 

One Church Promised not to go into the Great Tribulation.

 

The 24 Elders

 

-  Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10)

-  only three are Identified as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US )

- They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll

- Tribulation begins when the Scroll is Unsealed

 

 

Just some thoughts.

1) Imminence continued: I see I left out one verse of those you quoted re your imminence argument. Yes this verse is a good one, it is in fact the only verse that does support you argument of imminence:

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

However this is in stark contrast with 1 Thess 5 which specifically states that the rapture will only surprise unbelievers:

When people are saying, “Everything is so peaceful and secure,” then destruction will suddenly come upon them, the way labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there is no way they will escape. But you, brothers, are not in the dark, so that the Day should take you by surprise like a thief; for you are all people who belong to the light, who belong to the day

So we have one verse that says it will be a surprise, another that says it will not be a surprise, and then other verses like 2 Thess 1 and 1 Corinth 15 that say that the rapture occurs only when Jesus comes. (ie not a surprise). Other verses warn pre-trib believers of a series of signs that must come first (Matthew 24, 2 Thess 2, Daniel 12).

I see Luke 12 as meaning be always ready, because we don't know when Jesus will be coming and then we may miss the signs and lose hope.

2) Marriage feast comparison: I just didn't find your comparison with a wedding a compelling argument. Yes this parable is used in the bible, but generally weddings are known in advance and well prepared for. If you have any specific verse that supports your position of imminence from wedding feast parables please post it.

3)I don't find your comparisons with "absences" a very compelling argument. I could easily find scriptures that involve an expected event coming about, but that is not proof that the rapture is expected. The bible itself would have to make the comparison in rapture context.

4) Your list:

1)Yes I deny the doctrine of imminence, I have many verses against that doctrine, you have only one to support your view. All your other verses didn't indicate imminence.

2)Israel and the church are not mutually exclusive. We exist together now, you need scriptural support that we will not exist together during the tribulation.

3)The entire tribulation period does not reflect God's wrath. That is restricted to the day of the Lord.

4)Which verse are you referring to about the bride?

5)Those that are left after the day of the Lord (survivors) populate the millenium. These are mortals and are not believers. Us believers rule and judge them.

Zech 14:

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

6) The sheep and the goats are good nations and bad nations:

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

7) Its a parable. Oil is normally symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Can you do me a favor, when you post Scripture please Post:  Book/Chapter and Verse, And if it's a long passage can you please highlight the Specific Equivocation.....sorry, I mean passage for easy identification.

 

So you can't answer my questions regarding verses that contradict the pre-trib view, yet you wish me to answer your questions. Bring it on! lol no problem.

 

Your versus contradict nothing lol....and No Problem, I'll go ahead and reply back anyway.

 

(2 Thessalonians 1:4-10) "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:  {5} Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:  {6} Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;  {7} And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,  {8} In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:  {9} Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;  {10} When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

 

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4) "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,  {2} That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  {3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

 

Can you please highlight and explain your Specific Issues with each that you seem to think contradicts Pre-Trib Rapture so there is no misunderstanding.

 

 

1) Firstly regarding the purpose of tribulation, you quoted a scripture that refers to the tribulation of Jews.

 

Yes, that's the SOLE purpose of Tribulation/ The Great Tribulation, (To push the Jews to the Wall).  I did it for background since it is very important to our subject.

 

 

I believe verses that refer to the persecution of Christians would be more applicable.

 

Why so you can continue to Equivocate; Persecutions/Sufferings/tribulation (little "t") that comes from the World with...... TRIBULATION/GREAT that comes from GOD!

It's actually the whole basis of your argument that's slowly circling the drain as we speak....it's about to hit MACH WARP DRIVE.

 

 

Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison TO TEST YOU, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

 

Again, another Equivocation.  Relevance?

 

Daniel 7, Rev 12, and Rev 13 refer to a 3.5 year period of persecution towards the end. The end-times persecution of believers is also referred to in Rev 6 (the martyrs) and Rev 20 (the beheaded).

 

Please again be Specific with exact Passages.  It's not Persecution (Equivocation), it's called the GREAT TRIBULATION.  And bear in mind...the Majority of Everything from Chapter 4 Of Revelation on is almost EXCLUSIVELY Jewish.  Remember the Purpose....(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

 

2) Regarding wrath.... the verse is referring to the wrath of eternity, not persecutions:

 

Hogwash!! Support it.  And your sentence is Non-Sequitur "not persecutions" in Eternity??   

 

Mine is supported just by the OT Rapture references alone in the previous post.

 

 

1 Thess 2 says that the relief from persecutions for pre-trib believers only occurs at the second coming, not an earlier rapture.

 

Post exact Specific Scripture and hopefully it's from the AKJV or we're gonna have serious problems.   Also, Stop Equivocating "persecutions" and "TRIBULATION" Please.

 

Actually Jesus himself promises persecutions, so I believe that your application of a verse about wrath to us believers avoiding persecutions during the tribulation is an inaccurate principle that you are proposing. Jesus never promised that we would avoid persecution, in fact he expects persecutions:

Mark 10:30

no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

1 Thessalonians 3:7

Therefore, brothers and sisters, in all our distress and persecution we were encouraged about you because of your faith

 

 

Equivocation Parade with "Persecution" again.  It's the Entire Foundation and substance of your Argument in TOTO.

 

3) The rapture will occur. I prefer the term "resurrection" but have no problem with calling it the rapture. I believe it occurs at the end of the tribulation. I believe we will be raptured without experiencing the wrath on the day of the Lord. ie we will escape the great earthquake, the fire and destruction and judgements and wrath on that day because we will be raptured. None of the verses you quoted contradicts this view.

 

You contradict the Doctrine of Imminence (BIGGIE) and the Ancient Jewish Wedding "TYPE" (BIGGIE).  I see your not a fan or aware of "Types", I suggest you repent quick....Scripture is CHALK FULL OF THEM.

 

4) Regarding imminence, I believe we must expect the second coming soon but their are preceding signs, for example as described in 2 Thess 2.

Of your supporting verses, none of them support your imminence argument:

 

LOL HogWash!!! 

 

All I need is ONE verse.....(Matthew 24:36) "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

 

(Matthew 24:42) " Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

(Matthew 25:13) " Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

 

How many do you think I can come up with before I shut down the Worthy Servers,...... just with the Gospels??

 

Your "end of trib" Rapture, is ready to hit Warp Drive Nose Dive.... Anybody with just a cursory knowledge of Scripture (Dan/Rev) can SET THEIR WATCH from the Abomination of Desolation!!!!....until Christ's Return.  It would contradict a METRIC TON of Scriptures just by itself,  not to mention the other problems I mentioned in the previous post.  This is a SLAM DUNK GENRE.

 

1 Thess 5 supports my position of non -imminence: IT WILL NOT SURPRISE US: Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,

 

2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are NOT IN THE DARKNESS SO THAT THIS DAY SHOULD SURPRISE YOU LIKE A THIEF. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.

 

 

Your kidding right?  It will not surprise them because....ahhhh, They were just told....."the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

 

The Fact that the LORD is COMING (and coming quick @ a time NOT EXPECTED) so that doesn't surprise them, doesn't PRECLUDE IMMINENCE  .....in fact, it's completely Irrelevant to the Fact.  MOREOVER, it just AFFIRMS IMMINENCE even Stronger (SEE: Not EXPECTED)   Hopefully, I don't need to explain this.

 

And So goes your entire "surprise" diatribe in your 2nd Post

 

 

Marriage feast comparison: I just didn't find your comparison with a wedding a compelling argument. Yes this parable is used in the bible, but generally weddings are known in advance and well prepared for. If you have any specific verse that supports your position of imminence from wedding feast parables please post it.

 

It's not a Parable, it's an Ancient Jewish Wedding Tradition and is a "TYPE".  If you can't see the Blatantly Obvious Pattern, I can't do much more for you.

 

 

3)I don't find your comparisons with "absences" a very compelling argument. I could easily find scriptures that involve an expected event coming about, but that is not proof that the rapture is expected. The bible itself would have to make the comparison in rapture context.

 

They are called "TYPES" and again are CHALK FULL in Scripture..... PROPHECY IS PATTERN!!  (Ask any Eschatology Aficionado).  Just for example, in our Genre, Look @ Daniel with the First Abomination of Desolation;  Antiochus IV Epiphanes in Daniel that Jesus makes reference to, by the way.....it's a "TYPE" or Foreshadowing.  Look @ the Battle of Jericho and it's "TYPES" with Revelation.  I could go on for days.  If you don't recognize them, you will miss out on the Majority of Prophecy and Blessings in Scripture for that Matter, IMHO.

 

The Rest of yours in Green: (Just a few this is getting long in the tooth)

 

"Yes I deny the doctrine of imminence, I have many verses against that doctrine, you have only one to support your view. All your other verses didn't indicate imminence."

 

You deny THE WORD then!! I suggest you go to The LORD with this issue. And you have no verses against it @ all, Absolutely ZERO.

 

 

"Israel and the church are not mutually exclusive. We exist together now, you need scriptural support that we will not exist together during the tribulation"

 

This comment SPEAKS VOLUMES!! How about the the New Testament in TOTO with specific attention to Acts, Romans, and Hebrews.

 

"Which verse are you referring to about the bride?"

 

You seriously don't know that the NT Church is the Bride of Christ?  And you started a Topic on the Rapture Seriously?  Because if that's the case, we need to stop this discussion right now and start over in Genesis.

 

(Ephesians 5:23-25) "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.  {24} Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.  {25} Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;"

 

 

"The sheep and the goats are good nations and bad nations:"

 

You can't be serious?

[ARGOSY]

 

 

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Can you do me a favor, when you post Scripture please Post:  Book/Chapter and Verse, And if it's a long passage can you please highlight the Specific Equivocation.....sorry, I mean passage for easy identification.

 

So you can't answer my questions regarding verses that contradict the pre-trib view, yet you wish me to answer your questions. Bring it on! lol no problem.

 

Your versus contradict nothing lol....and No Problem, I'll go ahead and reply back anyway.

 

(2 Thessalonians 1:4-10) "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:  {5} Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:  {6} Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;  {7} And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,  {8} In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:  {9} Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;  {10} When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

 

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4) "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,  {2} That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  {3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

 

Can you please highlight and explain your Specific Issues with each that you seem to think contradicts Pre-Trib Rapture so there is no misunderstanding.

 

 

1) Firstly regarding the purpose of tribulation, you quoted a scripture that refers to the tribulation of Jews.

 

Yes, that's the SOLE purpose of Tribulation/ The Great Tribulation, (To push the Jews to the Wall).  I did it for background since it is very important to our subject.

 

 

I believe verses that refer to the persecution of Christians would be more applicable.

 

Why so you can continue to Equivocate; Persecutions/Sufferings/tribulation (little "t") that comes from the World with...... TRIBULATION/GREAT that comes from GOD!

It's actually the whole basis of your argument that's slowly circling the drain as we speak....it's about to hit MACH WARP DRIVE.

 

 

Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison TO TEST YOU, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

 

Again, another Equivocation.  Relevance?

 

Daniel 7, Rev 12, and Rev 13 refer to a 3.5 year period of persecution towards the end. The end-times persecution of believers is also referred to in Rev 6 (the martyrs) and Rev 20 (the beheaded).

 

Please again be Specific with exact Passages.  It's not Persecution (Equivocation), it's called the GREAT TRIBULATION.  And bear in mind...the Majority of Everything from Chapter 4 Of Revelation on is almost EXCLUSIVELY Jewish.  Remember the Purpose....(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

 

2) Regarding wrath.... the verse is referring to the wrath of eternity, not persecutions:

 

Hogwash!! Support it.  And your sentence is Non-Sequitur "not persecutions" in Eternity??   

 

Mine is supported just by the OT Rapture references alone in the previous post.

 

 

1 Thess 2 says that the relief from persecutions for pre-trib believers only occurs at the second coming, not an earlier rapture.

 

Post exact Specific Scripture and hopefully it's from the AKJV or we're gonna have serious problems.   Also, Stop Equivocating "persecutions" and "TRIBULATION" Please.

 

Actually Jesus himself promises persecutions, so I believe that your application of a verse about wrath to us believers avoiding persecutions during the tribulation is an inaccurate principle that you are proposing. Jesus never promised that we would avoid persecution, in fact he expects persecutions:

Mark 10:30

no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

1 Thessalonians 3:7

Therefore, brothers and sisters, in all our distress and persecution we were encouraged about you because of your faith

 

Equivocation Parade with "Persecution" again.  It's the Entire Foundation and substance of your Argument in TOTO.

 

3) The rapture will occur. I prefer the term "resurrection" but have no problem with calling it the rapture. I believe it occurs at the end of the tribulation. I believe we will be raptured without experiencing the wrath on the day of the Lord. ie we will escape the great earthquake, the fire and destruction and judgements and wrath on that day because we will be raptured. None of the verses you quoted contradicts this view.

 

You contradict the Doctrine of Imminence (BIGGIE) and the Ancient Jewish Wedding "TYPE" (BIGGIE).  I see your not a fan or aware of "Types", I suggest you repent quick....Scripture is CHALK FULL OF THEM.

 

4) Regarding imminence, I believe we must expect the second coming soon but their are preceding signs, for example as described in 2 Thess 2.

Of your supporting verses, none of them support your imminence argument:

 

LOL HogWash!!! 

 

All I need is ONE verse.....(Matthew 24:36) "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

 

(Matthew 24:42) " Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

(Matthew 25:13) " Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

 

How many do you think I can come up with before I shut down the Worthy Servers,...... just with the Gospels??

 

Your "end of trib" Rapture, is ready to hit Warp Drive Nose Dive.... Anybody with just a cursory knowledge of Scripture (Dan/Rev) can SET THEIR WATCH from the Abomination of Desolation!!!!....until Christ's Return.  It would contradict a METRIC TON of Scriptures just by itself,  not to mention the other problems I mentioned in the previous post.  This is a SLAM DUNK GENRE.

 

1 Thess 5 supports my position of non -imminence: IT WILL NOT SURPRISE US: Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,

 

2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are NOT IN THE DARKNESS SO THAT THIS DAY SHOULD SURPRISE YOU LIKE A THIEF. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.

 

Your kidding right?  It will not surprise them because....ahhhh, They were just told....."the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

 

The Fact that the LORD is COMING (and coming quick @ a time NOT EXPECTED) so that doesn't surprise them, doesn't PRECLUDE IMMINENCE  .....in fact, it's completely Irrelevant to the Fact.  MOREOVER, it just AFFIRMS IMMINENCE even Stronger (SEE: Not EXPECTED)   Hopefully, I don't need to explain this.

 

And So goes your entire "surprise" diatribe in your 2nd Post

 

 

Marriage feast comparison: I just didn't find your comparison with a wedding a compelling argument. Yes this parable is used in the bible, but generally weddings are known in advance and well prepared for. If you have any specific verse that supports your position of imminence from wedding feast parables please post it.

 

It's not a Parable, it's an Ancient Jewish Wedding Tradition and is a "TYPE".  If you can't see the Blatantly Obvious Pattern, I can't do much more for you.

 

 

3)I don't find your comparisons with "absences" a very compelling argument. I could easily find scriptures that involve an expected event coming about, but that is not proof that the rapture is expected. The bible itself would have to make the comparison in rapture context.

 

They are called "TYPES" and again are CHALK FULL in Scripture..... PROPHECY IS PATTERN!!  (Ask any Eschatology Aficionado).  Just for example, in our Genre, Look @ Daniel with the First Abomination of Desolation;  Antiochus IV Epiphanes in Daniel that Jesus makes reference to, by the way.....it's a "TYPE" or Foreshadowing.  Look @ the Battle of Jericho and it's "TYPES" with Revelation.  I could go on for days.  If you don't recognize them, you will miss out on the Majority of Prophecy and Blessings in Scripture for that Matter, IMHO.

 

The Rest of yours in Green: (Just a few this is getting long in the tooth)

 

"Yes I deny the doctrine of imminence, I have many verses against that doctrine, you have only one to support your view. All your other verses didn't indicate imminence."

 

You deny THE WORD then!! I suggest you go to The LORD with this issue. And you have no verses against it @ all, Absolutely ZERO.

 

 

"Israel and the church are not mutually exclusive. We exist together now, you need scriptural support that we will not exist together during the tribulation"

 

This comment SPEAKS VOLUMES!! How about the the New Testament in TOTO with specific attention to Acts, Romans, and Hebrews.

 

"Which verse are you referring to about the bride?"

 

You seriously don't know that the NT Church is the Bride of Christ?  And you started a Topic on the Rapture Seriously?  Because if that's the case, we need to stop this discussion right now and start over in Genesis.

 

(Ephesians 5:23-25) "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.  {24} Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.  {25} Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;"

 

 

"The sheep and the goats are good nations and bad nations:"

 

You can't be serious?

Thanks for your reply. I see you put a lot of time into it. I noticed that you make accusations of equivocation, could you please describe exactly where and when I have said anything that amounts to equivocation? It is the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning or sense (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time). I am not aware of any deliberate use of this and would appreciate the clarity.

My opening post lays out clearly why I feel those two verses in 2 Thessalonians contradict the pretrib position, so I will not repeat those points. could you kindly make the time to study the opening post.

Daniel 7:25, Rev 12:17, Rev 13:7 refer to a 3.5 year period of persecution towards the end. The end-times persecution of believers is also referred to in Rev 6:9-11(the martyrs) and Rev 20:4 (the beheaded). I'm not sure if you regard these as specifically Jewish believers but I see nothing in the text that implies this. So there are definitely persecuted believers during the tribulation, and I quoted a verse Rev 2:10 that shows persecutions are also there to test our faith. So I completely disagree with you that the tribulation is only to bring Jews to repentance, its also to test the faith of believers. Can you prove biblically I am wrong in this? Please quote the relevant verses that show me that believers will NOT BE tested during the tribulation. By doing so you can then strengthen your point that the tribulation is ONLY to "push Jews to the wall".

Regarding your verse about wrath, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

This is obviously contrasting the eternal wrath of not receiving salvation with being saved, and encouraging us to stay prepared so that we may "obtain salvation". I am happy to agree to disagree regarding this, I feel context is clear that it is about wrath or salvation. This in no manner precludes Christians from persecutions and I quoted a few verses in my previous posts to you that in fact show that Jesus expects us to be persecuted and history also shows the church has been persecuted. So we cannot be expected to endure the wrath of God, but we can expect persecutions.

1 Thessalonians 5

2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

If you cannot see how the above verse contradicts you position, then I am making no progress in this discussion with you. The verse is written to pre-trib believers (Thessalonians) and tells them that the day of the Lord is a day of destruction (ie visible SECOND COMING!!) and WILL NOT SURPRISE BELIEVERS LIKE A THIEF. Its obvious that the surprise factor is only for unbelievers.

Hopefully you are able to see that.

[Montana Marv]

Argosy

 

We still don't believe you.

 

Matt 24:36 and on - As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in those days before the flood, people were eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the Ark.....  Two men will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left.  Two women will be grinding with the hand mill, one will be taken and the other left.  This indicates a peaceful time.  Having a big party.

 

Now let's look at Rev 19:19 - Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.   I do not see a time for eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage at this time.  They are preparing for war.  And then before this are the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl judgments.  Chaos in action for the inhabitants of the earth.  Not a time of peace.

 

But the retrieval of the Bride is at an unknown time.  The clocks ticking is closer to the end.  When one sees these armies gathering, look up for your redemption is near, Nah    The five virgins cannot buy oil for their lamps at this time.

 

And yet Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons and idols.  (one third were killed, two thirds remain alive)   These two thirds continued worshiping demons and idols.  I don't see any leeway here for a post-trib theory.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Look at Ezk 38, 39  -  After this war those of Israel burned the weapons of war for 7 years (two 3 1/2 year periods)

[Montana Marv]

I would have to say we are now living is the time frame of;  "Eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage"  As in the time before Noah entered the Ark.  This time is NOW.  It is Imminent, Now.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

=======================================================================

 

 

I noticed that you make accusations of equivocation, could you please describe exactly where and when I have said anything that amounts to equivocation? It is the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning or sense (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time).

 

No, Equivocation is placing more than 1 meaning on a term:

 

The same word is used with two different meanings.  http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/equiv.htm

 

You're Equivocating Persecutions/Trials/Suffering/tribulation (little "t') et al..... with the GREAT TRIBULATION.

 

Persecutions/Trials/Suffering/tribulation comes from the World and the "Church" has endured this since virtually the Beginning.  The GREAT TRIBULATION comes from GOD and is an Entirely different animal.  See it?

 

My opening post lays out clearly why I feel those two verses in 2 Thessalonians contradict the pretrib position,

 

They do not and your failure to HIGHLIGHT said Specific Parts "as requested" of the Passages in question is a Testimony to that fact.  Moreover, I couldn't help but notice your many posts exclaiming that the RESTRAINER is satan    Which I would have to say, is one of the most preposterous claims I ever heard....but I know why your peddling that; Your Thesis Crumbles (more than it already has) without it (more on that in a moment)......

 

1).  The RESTRAINER is the HOLY SPIRIT Sir.  satan doesn't restrain himself and he's not running the show!!  GOD is not waiting for satan to remove the "Restrainer"...it's a Ridiculous Postulate.

 

Here's the KEY and SPEAKS VOLUMES To MY POINTS...

 

(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

 

satan is @ the beckoning call of the ALMIGHTY GOD....Only GOD knows that NUMBER of Fulness sir.  This verse also shows the CLEAR DISTINCTION between the "CHURCH" and "ISRAEL".

 

That Blindness that Israel currently has is gonna be "RECTIFIED" in a Big Way....it's called the GREAT TRIBULATION (Time of Jacobs Trouble) and will force them to RECKON with The LORD and.....(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."   See it?

 

 

GOD alone "Restrains" evil, PERIOD, End of Story.  Read JOB for a full demonstration of that very fact.

 

2.)  And you know if the "Restrainer" is the Holy Spirit (And HE most Certainly Is!) there is No Way that HE is removed and the "Church" is left here by themselves.  Because the HOLY SPIRIT was sent TO THE CHURCH after the Ascension. 

 

 

Here's another problem.... you forgot to list the rest of your "PROOF" verse; allow me, I'll separate it out....

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:3-9) "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 

 

{6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

 

You see when the "RESTRAINER" is removed...then by PROXY: the "Church"  RAPTURE......THEN shall that Wicked be Revealed.

 

Also, the 7 Churches in Revelation:

 

One Church is promised to Enter the GREAT TRIBULATION if they don't repent......Thyatira:

 

(Revelation 2:22) " Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds."

 

One Church is Specifically Promised NOT TO ENTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION.......Philadelphia

 

(Revelation 3:10) " Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

 

 

Daniel 7:25, Rev 12:17, Rev 13:7 refer to a 3.5 year period of persecution towards the end.

 

It's not Persecution YOU'RE EQUIVOCATING AGAIN......That last 3 1/2 Years is the GREAT TRIBULATION!!

 

 

The end-times persecution of believers is also referred to in Rev 6:9-11(the martyrs) and Rev 20:4 (the beheaded).   So there are definitely persecuted believers during the tribulation,

 

They're called the Tribulation Saints sir and have nothing to do with the "Church",  Christ's Virgin Bride:  (Eph 5:32, Romans 7:4, 2 Cor 11:2, Rev 19:7)

 

The Persecuted Believers sir are IN The Great Tribulation.

 

 

So I completely disagree with you that the tribulation is only to bring Jews to repentance, its also to test the faith of believers. Can you prove biblically I am wrong in this?

 

I didn't say the "ONLY" but it is the MAIN PURPOSE sir!!  And, You're not disagreeing with me You are disagreeing with GOD....and I already showed you:

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

Of course the Earth in the inhabitors are going through some Pretty Precarious Times but Where is the MAIN SCENE (Israel) and who is satan and his legions after....THE JEWS, THE REMNANT....  Why?  To Kill them before they can........PETITION THE LORD (SEE: Hosea 5: 15 above)

 

(Micah 2:12) "I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men."

 

(Revelation 12:17) "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

 

It's also called..... THE TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE

 

 

1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

This is obviously contrasting the eternal wrath of not receiving salvation with being saved,

 

So now you're equivocating GOD'S "Wrath" with "Eternal Punishment" or Hell?? And you put "Eternal" in front of "Wrath" to somehow validate the Equivocation?

 

Not gonna work:

 

(Luke 21:23) " But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people."

 

(Romans 2:5) "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;"

 

(Revelation 6:16) "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

 

(Revelation 6:17) "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

(Revelation 11:18) "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

 

(Revelation 14:10) "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"

 

(Revelation 14:19) "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

 

 

This in no manner precludes Christians from persecutions

 

See Many Examples I have provided concerning this Equivocation.

 

 

1 Thessalonians 5

2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

If you cannot see how the above verse contradicts you position, then I am making no progress in this discussion with you. The verse is written to pre-trib believers (Thessalonians) and tells them that the day of the Lord is a day of destruction (ie visible SECOND COMING!!) and WILL NOT SURPRISE BELIEVERS LIKE A THIEF. Its obvious that the surprise factor is only for unbelievers.

 

It doesn't contradict My Position Whatsoever.  He's explaining to the Thessalonians that the ones that "Will not Escape" will be the UNBELIEVERS....it's a compare and Contrast sir.  And he gives that away with verse 4......"BUT YOU"...are not in darkness.  How does this contradict my position??

 

 

WILL NOT SURPRISE BELIEVERS LIKE A THIEF. Its obvious that the surprise factor is only for unbelievers.

 

So?  The Day of WRATH or The Coming of the LORD won't "Surprise" them because they are Believers and have been WARNED by Paul.  What does this have to do with contradicting Imminence??  Absolutely nothing.

 

IMMINENT or Doctrine of IMMINENCE: The Next Expectation; No Proceeding Event.

[ARGOSY]

They do not and your failure to HIGHLIGHT said Specific Parts "as requested" of the Passages in question is a Testimony to that fact.

Back to the opening post.

This chapter is saying that pre-trib believers will get their relief/rest at the second coming on a day of vengeance and punishment for the ungodly. It contradicts the pre-trib position because the relief from persecutions only occurs at the second coming for pre-trib believers and not in some pre-trib rapture. Believers will still be on earth right until the second coming, when Jesus is revealed in flaming fire and punishes unbelievers:

2 Thess 1

we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe

This seems to be saying that gathering of pre-trib believers and the second coming are the same day of Christ, and only occur after the man of sin is revealed. This contradicts the pre-trib position because pre-tribbers believe that we will be raptured before the antichrist is revealed, and yet the following verses are saying that we will only be gathered AFTER the revealing of the antichrist.

2 Thess 2

concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him , we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed , the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Another section that contradicts the pre-trib position is 1 Thess 4:16-5:4 that associates the rapture with loud events and the "thief in the night" with destruction of the ungodly:

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first . Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief