ARGOSY Posted March 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 Argosy We still don't believe you. Matt 24:36 and on - As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in those days before the flood, people were eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the Ark..... Two men will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with the hand mill, one will be taken and the other left. This indicates a peaceful time. Having a big party. Now let's look at Rev 19:19 - Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. I do not see a time for eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage at this time. They are preparing for war. And then before this are the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl judgments. Chaos in action for the inhabitants of the earth. Not a time of peace. But the retrieval of the Bride is at an unknown time. The clocks ticking is closer to the end. When one sees these armies gathering, look up for your redemption is near, Nah The five virgins cannot buy oil for their lamps at this time. And yet Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons and idols. (one third were killed, two thirds remain alive) These two thirds continued worshiping demons and idols. I don't see any leeway here for a post-trib theory. In ChristMontana Marv Look at Ezk 38, 39 - After this war those of Israel burned the weapons of war for 7 years (two 3 1/2 year periods)During the second world war, back home people were still eating drinking, and getting married thousands of miles away from the war front, so a war in the Middle East, and normal life can carry on simultaneously.Its strange that you quote Matthew 24 though, which is not a pre-trib rapture verse, its a second coming verse. This particular rapture occurs at the second coming, and occurs after the tribulation:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.The unknown time of the retrieval of the bride is in the same Matthew 24/25 context of the second coming, and not any pre-trib rapture. Are you arguing that the second coming is also an unknown time? Actually that may be a better argument because most of the "thief in the night" scriptures and "unknown day" scriptures point to the second coming and not to any so-called pre-trib rapture.Matthew 25: the son of man cometh: the second coming:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the SON OF MAN COMETH.Regarding your view on Rev 9:20, do you seriously believe there are no believers on earth during the tribulation? The following scriptures confirm that there are in fact believers during the tribulation and so not everyone is evil during that period:Dan 7:25-27 Rev 13:7 Rev 6: 11 Rev 20:4Hopefully that covers your main objections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 I would have to say we are now living is the time frame of; "Eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" As in the time before Noah entered the Ark. This time is NOW. It is Imminent, Now. In ChristMontana MarvThis is what humans have always done, even during world war 2. I don't find this argument compelling whatsoever. There are definite signs that must come first before our gathering. We will not be gathered until the antichrist is revealed, so it cannot be imminent: 2 Thess 21 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 Look at Ezk 38, 39 - After this war those of Israel burned the weapons of war for 7 years (two 3 1/2 year periods)I see I didn't respond to your reference to Ezekiel. It seems traditional to regard Ezekiel 38.39 as occurring before the 7 year tribulation, because of the reference to 7 years of burning weapons. It seems just seeing the number 7 makes people associate that period with the tribulation, but if we look deeper for associations we can see that we should rather associate Ezekiel with the war at the second coming (Armageddon) (post trib), not a pre-trib war.The Ezekiel 38/39 war and the Armageddon/Rev 19/Joel 2 war have the following similarities:An attack by the northern armyMany nations with themA great feast of birdsThe greatest earthquakeIsrael's repentance and restorationGod's intervention by fireThe nations knowledge of God.Its pretty clear to me that Ezekiel 38/39 precedes the millenium, not the tribulation. We may just have to agree to disagree on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted March 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted March 31, 2014 They do not and your failure to HIGHLIGHT said Specific Parts "as requested" of the Passages in question is a Testimony to that fact. Back to the opening post. This chapter is saying that pre-trib believers will get their relief/rest at the second coming on a day of vengeance and punishment for the ungodly. It contradicts the pre-trib position because the relief from persecutions only occurs at the second coming for pre-trib believers and not in some pre-trib rapture. Believers will still be on earth right until the second coming, when Jesus is revealed in flaming fire and punishes unbelievers: 2 Thess 1 we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe This seems to be saying that gathering of pre-trib believers and the second coming are the same day of Christ, and only occur after the man of sin is revealed. This contradicts the pre-trib position because pre-tribbers believe that we will be raptured before the antichrist is revealed, and yet the following verses are saying that we will only be gathered AFTER the revealing of the antichrist. 2 Thess 2 concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Another section that contradicts the pre-trib position is 1 Thess 4:16-5:4 that associates the rapture with loud events and the "thief in the night" with destruction of the ungodly: For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief ==================================================================== Did you read this?? : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 Did you read this?? : Yes, but its off topic, so when I have time I will deal with that. In the meantime I am hoping that a pre-tribber will deal with the opening post, the topic at hand. Hoping you will tackle this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted March 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 31, 2014 Arogsy Here is a question of yours to me: Regarding your view on Rev 9:20, do you seriously believe there are no believers on earth during the tribulation? The following scriptures confirm that there are in fact believers during the tribulation and so not everyone is evil during that period: Dan 7:25-27 Rev 13:7 Rev 6: 11 Rev 20:4 The real statement I have asked is: There are no true believers from just before the 5th Trumpet and on to the Second Coming. I did not say there were no believers during this 70th Week. From just before the 5th Trumpet, ALL have become demon and idol worshipers. "The Rest of Mankind" Yes, the 144,000 and the remnant from Israel and those from every tribe and nation are included in this group. Being sealed does not mean being perfect. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted March 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Did you read this?? : Yes, but its off topic, so when I have time I will deal with that. In the meantime I am hoping that a pre-tribber will deal with the opening post, the topic at hand. Hoping you will tackle this? ==================================================================== Yes, but its off topic, Are you joking? It's off topic??? It's post #69 in this thread (just above), that you quoted just a tiny Piece of in Post # 70, in Reply to In the meantime I am hoping that a pre-tribber will deal with the opening post, the topic at hand. Hoping you will tackle this? I already did "deal" LOL.....in post #69 you apparently didn't read...that you replied to. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted March 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 31, 2014 Look at Ezk 38, 39 - After this war those of Israel burned the weapons of war for 7 years (two 3 1/2 year periods) I see I didn't respond to your reference to Ezekiel. It seems traditional to regard Ezekiel 38.39 as occurring before the 7 year tribulation, because of the reference to 7 years of burning weapons. It seems just seeing the number 7 makes people associate that period with the tribulation, but if we look deeper for associations we can see that we should rather associate Ezekiel with the war at the second coming (Armageddon) (post trib), not a pre-trib war. The Ezekiel 38/39 war and the Armageddon/Rev 19/Joel 2 war have the following similarities: An attack by the northern army Many nations with them A great feast of birds The greatest earthquake Israel's repentance and restoration God's intervention by fire The nations knowledge of God. Its pretty clear to me that Ezekiel 38/39 precedes the millenium, not the tribulation. We may just have to agree to disagree on this one. Argosy Why then are those of Israel burying the dead for the first 7 months of the Mill then? In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 Look at Ezk 38, 39 - After this war those of Israel burned the weapons of war for 7 years (two 3 1/2 year periods)I see I didn't respond to your reference to Ezekiel. It seems traditional to regard Ezekiel 38.39 as occurring before the 7 year tribulation, because of the reference to 7 years of burning weapons. It seems just seeing the number 7 makes people associate that period with the tribulation, but if we look deeper for associations we can see that we should rather associate Ezekiel with the war at the second coming (Armageddon) (post trib), not a pre-trib war.The Ezekiel 38/39 war and the Armageddon/Rev 19/Joel 2 war have the following similarities:An attack by the northern armyMany nations with themA great feast of birdsThe greatest earthquakeIsrael's repentance and restorationGod's intervention by fireThe nations knowledge of God.Its pretty clear to me that Ezekiel 38/39 precedes the millenium, not the tribulation. We may just have to agree to disagree on this one.Argosy Why then are those of Israel burying the dead for the first 7 months of the Mill then? In ChristMontana MarvBecause after Armageddon, there are a lot of bodies lying around for the first months of the millenium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollinTHUNDER Posted March 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,985 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 433 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/23/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 31, 2014 Deleted post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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