PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[ARGOSY]

Did you read this?? : 

Yes, but its off topic, so when I have time I will deal with that. In the meantime I am hoping that a pre-tribber will deal with the opening post, the topic at hand. Hoping you will tackle this?

 

 

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Yes, but its off topic,

 

Are you joking?  It's off topic???  It's post #69 in this thread (just above), that you quoted just a tiny Piece of in Post # 70,  in Reply to 

 

 

In the meantime I am hoping that a pre-tribber will deal with the opening post, the topic at hand. Hoping you will tackle this?

 

I already did "deal" LOL.....in post #69 you apparently didn't read...that you replied to.    ??

Your posts are very long. I could not find your response to the opening post anywhere in #69. I find your style and length of posts difficult to follow and respond to. Could you kindly give me your explanation of the verses in the opening post, hopefully succintly to make it easy for those who read these threads to follow your points. I did go back and highlight the relevant portions of those verses, but really the whole section I quoted is relevant in both cases.

[ARGOSY]

Arogsy

 

Here is a question of yours to me:  Regarding your view on Rev 9:20, do you seriously believe there are no believers on earth during the tribulation? The following scriptures confirm that there are in fact believers during the tribulation and so not everyone is evil during that period:  Dan 7:25-27 Rev 13:7 Rev 6: 11 Rev 20:4

 

The real statement I have asked is:  There are no true believers from just before the 5th Trumpet and on to the Second Coming.    I did not say there were no believers during this 70th Week.  From just before the 5th Trumpet, ALL have become demon and idol worshipers.  "The Rest of Mankind"  Yes, the 144,000 and the remnant from Israel and those from every tribe and nation are included in this group. Being sealed does not mean being perfect.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Why do you claim there are no believers from just before the 5th trumpet?

[Montana Marv]

 

Arogsy

 

Here is a question of yours to me:  Regarding your view on Rev 9:20, do you seriously believe there are no believers on earth during the tribulation? The following scriptures confirm that there are in fact believers during the tribulation and so not everyone is evil during that period:  Dan 7:25-27 Rev 13:7 Rev 6: 11 Rev 20:4

 

The real statement I have asked is:  There are no true believers from just before the 5th Trumpet and on to the Second Coming.    I did not say there were no believers during this 70th Week.  From just before the 5th Trumpet, ALL have become demon and idol worshipers.  "The Rest of Mankind"  Yes, the 144,000 and the remnant from Israel and those from every tribe and nation are included in this group. Being sealed does not mean being perfect.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Why do you claim there are no believers from just before the 5th trumpet?

 

Argosy

 

They did not repent....  They did not stop....   After the 5th Trumpet "All Mankind: continued to do what that had done prior to the 5th Trumpet.  Worship demons and idols.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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I find your style and length of posts difficult to follow and respond to.

 

I don't think so and the length of something is irrelevant, especially in this case (It's not a Thesis or a Book)

 

Can you please provide a Specific Example with "my style".....Which is:  "Quote in question" with subsequent Bullet points beneath, that are either in agreement or refutation and SUPPORTED.

 

 

Could you kindly give me your explanation of the verses in the opening post,

 

I already have quite demonstrably

 

I could not find your response to the opening post anywhere in #69.

 

It's a 1/4 of the way down and starts with....

 

Here's another problem.... you forgot to list the rest of your "PROOF" verse; allow me, I'll separate it out....

 

hopefully succintly to make it easy for those who read these threads to follow your points.

 

I think I'm getting the message Loud and Clear. 

 

And with this Specific Topic "The Rapture" it is in a number of different places (Not just in 2 Passages in One Book) in Scripture with ties into no less then 6 Books and interconnected Doctrines.

 

 

I did go back and highlight the relevant portions of those verses, but really the whole section I quoted is relevant in both cases.

 

Where?  Why didn't you just post the passages again, in our interaction, and highlight them there?

[rollinTHUNDER]

IMMINENT or Doctrine of IMMINENCE: The Next Expectation; No Proceeding Event.

Posting this again, since the first one got buried.

I often hear pre-trib rapture believers claiming other positions violate the doctrine of imminence. The word of God has no such doctrine. It was created by pre-trib scholars as another means of supporting this theory. But the only way such a doctrine could carry any weight is (if) a pre-trib rapture is proven to be the correct position, which won't be known until it either happens or fails. If the seven year covenant is confirmed without a rapture occurring, then this doctrine falls flat on its face, along with the theory it was designed to support.

On the other hand, I want to point out another violation I see, a real one. I believe the pre-trib theory violates God's appointed times (feasts). In Christ' first advent (first coming) all of the spring feasts were fulfilled by Christ at there appointed times, to the very day and hour. All of these spring feasts were fulfilled in the spring of the same year. So it is highly likely that the fall feasts will be fulfilled in the same manner. There are still three feasts remaining, Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles. And these feasts have there appointed times as well, and will likewise be fulfilled by Christ upon His return. If a pre-trib rapture occurred, this would delay the two final feasts for seven years. I just can not see that happening.

All of these fall feasts occur within the same month. Actually, only 15 days separates them. Rosh Hashanah (feast of trumpets) begins on the first day of the seventh month on the Hebrew calendar, after the first sliver of the new moon is sighted with the naked eye. This is the only feast that no one knows the day or hour it will occur, as the new moon sometimes does not appear until the next day. This feast is on Tishri 1 & 2. The Day of Atonement begins on Tishri 10, followed by the feast of Tabernacles on Tishri 15.

However, the pre-trib theory is not alone in violating the Biblical feasts, because the post-trib theory would violate these feasts as well. A rapture and second coming occurring on the same day would force all of these feasts into a single day. I don't see that happening either. The spring feasts were fulfilled just before His departure back to heaven and the fall feasts will be fulfilled upon His return.

Just something to think about.

Cheers

[Enoch2021]

 

IMMINENT or Doctrine of IMMINENCE: The Next Expectation; No Proceeding Event.

Posting this again, since the first one got buried.

I often hear pre-trib rapture believers claiming other positions violate the doctrine of imminence. The word of God has no such doctrine. It was created by pre-trib scholars as another means of supporting this theory. But the only way such a doctrine could carry any weight is (if) a pre-trib rapture is proven to be the correct position, which won't be known until it either happens or fails. If the seven year covenant is confirmed without a rapture occurring, then this doctrine falls flat on its face, along with the theory it was designed to support.

On the other hand, I want to point out another violation I see, a real one. I believe the pre-trib theory violates God's appointed times (feasts). In Christ' first advent (first coming) all of the spring feasts were fulfilled by Christ at there appointed times, to the very day and hour. All of these spring feasts were fulfilled in the spring of the same year. So it is highly likely that the fall feasts will be fulfilled in the same manner. There are still three feasts remaining, Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles. And these feasts have there appointed times as well, and will likewise be fulfilled by Christ upon His return. If a pre-trib rapture occurred, this would delay the two final feasts for seven years. I just can not see that happening.

All of these fall feasts occur within the same month. Actually, only 15 days separates them. Rosh Hashanah (feast of trumpets) begins on the first day of the seventh month on the Hebrew calendar, after the first sliver of the new moon is sighted with the naked eye. This is the only feast that no one knows the day or hour it will occur, as the new moon sometimes does not appear until the next day. This feast is on Tishri 1 & 2. The Day of Atonement begins on Tishri 10, followed by the feast of Tabernacles on Tishri 15.

However, the pre-trib theory is not alone in violating the Biblical feasts, because the post-trib theory would violate these feasts as well. A rapture and second coming occurring on the same day would force all of these feasts into a single day. I don't see that happening either. The spring feasts were fulfilled just before His departure back to heaven and the fall feasts will be fulfilled upon His return.

Just something to think about.

Cheers

 

 

 

=====================================================

 

The word of God has no such doctrine.

 

According to who?  Support? 

 

 

It was created by pre-trib scholars as another means of supporting this theory.

 

 

Support?  And it's not a Theory....

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:17) "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

It's actually Rapture (English Translation) in the Latin Vulgate.

 

And most importantly, The Doctrine of Imminence is rather intuitive based on (Just a few).......

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

 

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

 

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

 

(2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

(**And many Others)

 

Now comparing Scripture with Scripture:  Time Times, and a half a Time: Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; 1260 Days: Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6, Rev 12:14; 42 Months: Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5....

 

These all speak to the time from the Abomination of Desolation to Christ's Return.  Here's the problem....anyone even with a cursory knowledge of Scripture (Especially Dan and Rev) could pretty much SET THEIR WATCHES from the Abomination of Desolation in Anticipation of Christ.  Which then would nullify (and dozens more).....

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."  All who've read and understood those passages WOULD KNOW.

 

Imminence:  the Next Expectation; No Preceding Event.

 

See it?

 

I believe the pre-trib theory violates God's appointed times (feasts).

 

 

The "Church" and "Israel" have 2 different Origins and Destiny's.  The Rapture has to do with the Church, the Great Tribulation's Mission is for Israel....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

 

The Differentiation and Integrity of each is clearly portrayed here....

 

(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

[Atwood]

"to give you who are troubled rest with us" So at the revelation of Jesus Christ what follows will be anesin. (Did you ever take an anasin tablet?) The word is translatable as liberty (Acts 24:23 or as rest, relaxation, relief. Now is it your theory that the Thessalonians who received this message have not yet got their anesin (since however you take it, Christ has not made his "revelation" yet. So then on your theory 2 Thes 1 means that the Thessalonians who lived in Paul's day have had tribulation for 2000 years now; when they go to Heaven they got no rest, since they don't get rest until the 2nd Coming of Christ? Or could it be that what follows Christ's return is an enhancement of their freedom still more (anesin, anesis, Acts 24:23))? Or is it that they got rest long ago & that after Christ returns that rest continues?

[rollinTHUNDER]

IMMINENT or Doctrine of IMMINENCE: The Next Expectation; No Proceeding Event.

Posting this again, since the first one got buried.

I often hear pre-trib rapture believers claiming other positions violate the doctrine of imminence. The word of God has no such doctrine. It was created by pre-trib scholars as another means of supporting this theory. But the only way such a doctrine could carry any weight is (if) a pre-trib rapture is proven to be the correct position, which won't be known until it either happens or fails. If the seven year covenant is confirmed without a rapture occurring, then this doctrine falls flat on its face, along with the theory it was designed to support.

On the other hand, I want to point out another violation I see, a real one. I believe the pre-trib theory violates God's appointed times (feasts). In Christ' first advent (first coming) all of the spring feasts were fulfilled by Christ at there appointed times, to the very day and hour. All of these spring feasts were fulfilled in the spring of the same year. So it is highly likely that the fall feasts will be fulfilled in the same manner. There are still three feasts remaining, Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles. And these feasts have there appointed times as well, and will likewise be fulfilled by Christ upon His return. If a pre-trib rapture occurred, this would delay the two final feasts for seven years. I just can not see that happening.

All of these fall feasts occur within the same month. Actually, only 15 days separates them. Rosh Hashanah (feast of trumpets) begins on the first day of the seventh month on the Hebrew calendar, after the first sliver of the new moon is sighted with the naked eye. This is the only feast that no one knows the day or hour it will occur, as the new moon sometimes does not appear until the next day. This feast is on Tishri 1 & 2. The Day of Atonement begins on Tishri 10, followed by the feast of Tabernacles on Tishri 15.

However, the pre-trib theory is not alone in violating the Biblical feasts, because the post-trib theory would violate these feasts as well. A rapture and second coming occurring on the same day would force all of these feasts into a single day. I don't see that happening either. The spring feasts were fulfilled just before His departure back to heaven and the fall feasts will be fulfilled upon His return.

Just something to think about.

Cheers

 

 

=====================================================

 

The word of God has no such doctrine.

 

According to who?  Support? 

 

 

It was created by pre-trib scholars as another means of supporting this theory.

 

Support?  And it's not a Theory....

(1 Thessalonians 4:17) "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

It's actually Rapture (English Translation) in the Latin Vulgate.

 

And most importantly, The Doctrine of Imminence is rather intuitive based on (Just a few).......

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

 

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

 

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

 

(2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

(**And many Others)

 

Now comparing Scripture with Scripture:  Time Times, and a half a Time: Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; 1260 Days: Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6, Rev 12:14; 42 Months: Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5....

 

These all speak to the time from the Abomination of Desolation to Christ's Return.  Here's the problem....anyone even with a cursory knowledge of Scripture (Especially Dan and Rev) could pretty much SET THEIR WATCHES from the Abomination of Desolation in Anticipation of Christ.  Which then would nullify (and dozens more).....

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."  All who've read and understood those passages WOULD KNOW.

 

Imminence:  the Next Expectation; No Preceding Event.

 

See it?

Wow, you really seem angry. Listen, I'm fully on board with the rapture. I was a pre-tribber for 15 years myself, so I'm very familiar with all the scriptures. By the way, none of the scriptures you quoted above favor a pre-trib rapture. It is still only a theory, no matter how strongly you believe it or how popular it is. And I've had this discussion many, many times before, and nothing you said offers anything new, so don't expect me to waste my time trying to convince you of something you refuse to see. There's no need to fuss over this at all, because very soon the seven year covenant will be confirmed and we're all gonna know one way or the other. Pre-trib is destined to be the first theory to fall, and then we'll see what happens from there.

 

Your doctrine of imminence claims that nothing needs to happen before the rapture occurs.  Sounds like someone must have told you pre-tribbers the order in which all of the prophecies will be fulfilled, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it if I were you.  Be careful who you listen to.  The wise virgins would be preparing to endure, just in case they guessed wrong on the timing.  The doctrine of imminence sounds like the doctrine of wishful thinking or hoping to me, but we're all going to find out soon enough.   

 

I believe the pre-trib theory violates God's appointed times (feasts).

 

 

The "Church" and "Israel" have 2 different Origins and Destiny's.  The Rapture has to do with the Church, the Great Tribulation's Mission is for Israel....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

 

The Differentiation and Integrity of each is clearly portrayed here....

 

(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

You seem to forget that we gentiles are a wild branch that was grafted into the same olive tree as (Israel). And that reminds me of something else pre-trib fans claim, that "God can not deal with Israel until He finishes dealing with the Church first." I wonder who thought of that ridiculous statement. We can not tie God's hands by what we believe, no matter how strongly we believe it. If you remember back to the first century, God dealt with both Israel and the Church simultaneously. In fact, the Church was growing by leaps and bounds long before God punished Israel. And the apostle Paul was already preaching to the gentiles for years before He punished that generation. He waited about 40 years (70 AD). So what makes pre-tribbers think He can not do it again?

God can still finish punishing Israel without removing His Church. There's no need to evacuate the gentiles because most of us are not even near Israel anyway. Christ will still rescue us from His wrath. But Daniel's 70th week is not God's wrath. The great tribulation is Satan's wrath, not God's. You can claim that these are God's wrath, but trust me, you're not going anywhere for awhile, so you still have plenty of time to grab a snickers. Hope you enjoy the rest of your debate.

Cheers

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Was that an OP-ED piece?

 

Wow, you really seem angry.

 

How so?

 

 

I was a pre-tribber for 15 years myself, so I'm very familiar with all the scriptures.

 

That must be the reason you never post any.  You also seem to not post any support whatsoever? (See:OP-ED Piece Above)

 

 

And that reminds me of something else pre-trib fans claim, that "God can not deal with Israel until He finishes dealing with the Church first." I wonder who thought of that ridiculous statement.

 

GOD did (is it still ridiculous?), It's called the Book of Revelation; Specifically.....

 

(Revelation 19:7-16) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.  {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

So who is The Lambs Wife? .................THE CHURCH:

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

(Romans 7:4) "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

Can you tell me Please, How in the World (Christ's Bride......"The Church") and Christ are just Married and had Dinner In Heaven. Then Christ, with HIS BRIDE Following, .... treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.".....

 

That CULMINATES TRIBULATION.

 

........but then, The Church is Raptured??????

 

 

 

And I've had this discussion many, many times before, and nothing you said offers anything new, so don't expect me to waste my time trying to convince you of something you refuse to see.

 

You could start by supporting your statements.  I wouldn't want you to waste any of your time, however.

 

 

So what makes pre-tribbers think He can not do it again?

 

Wrong question.  It's not what He Can or Can't Do...... it's what HE said HE WOULD DO.

 

You seem to forget that we gentiles are a wild branch that was grafted into the same olive tree (Israel).

 

(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

 

See the separation?

[Montana Marv]

Thunder

 

We Gentiles are the wild olive shoot which is grafted into the olive tree which Israel (being a natural branch)  has been pulled out of.  The Olive tree is Jesus Christ.   John 15:1 - "I am the true vine"  Jesus.  v.5 - I am the vine, you are the branches.

 

Israel is not the olive tree, they were branches of the olive tree.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv