Qnts2 Posted March 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2014 Ok, one more pass, the way I understand the verses Rev 20 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. I'll start with verse 12. Those who were dead have been resurrected for the white throne judgement. Among the people are those who were great in life. I understand greatness to be one who was considered great in life. One example might be Napolean. Churchill would be another. Gandhi another. And to not forget women, Joan of Arc. These were all men who held high positions of respect among people. Small would be the nobodies, people who no one had heard of, who didn't make the history books etc. This would fit in with God not being a respecter of persons. Great and small will stand before the throne. Their greatness or smallness do not enter, but what is recorded in the two books. 11 books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. We appear to have the book of life. Elsewhere in scripture, it is made plain that this is the book with the names of those who believe in Jesus. Another book has the deeds. People were judged according to their deeds, but then it says if their names were not found in the book of like, they are thrown in the lake of fire. What is missing is any clear statement as to whether anyone judged by their deeds could then have their names written in the book of life at the white throne judgement. Only those who are written in the book of life avoid the lake of fire. In a couple of these verses it talks about the names being written before the foundation of the world, will be those who worship the Lamb, and will not wonder at the beast. If names are written before the foundation of the earth, can it be assumed that names will not be added at the time of judgement? Phil 4:3 Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life. Rev 3: 4 But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ Rev 13: 7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. Rev 17: “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted March 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Author Share Posted March 26, 2014 Ok, one more pass, the way I understand the verses Rev 20 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. I'll start with verse 12. Those who were dead have been resurrected for the white throne judgement. Among the people are those who were great in life. I understand greatness to be one who was considered great in life. One example might be Napolean. Churchill would be another. Gandhi another. And to not forget women, Joan of Arc. These were all men who held high positions of respect among people. Small would be the nobodies, people who no one had heard of, who didn't make the history books etc. This would fit in with God not being a respecter of persons. Great and small will stand before the throne. Their greatness or smallness do not enter, but what is recorded in the two books. 11 books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. We appear to have the book of life. Elsewhere in scripture, it is made plain that this is the book with the names of those who believe in Jesus. Another book has the deeds. People were judged according to their deeds, but then it says if their names were not found in the book of like, they are thrown in the lake of fire. What is missing is any clear statement as to whether anyone judged by their deeds could then have their names written in the book of life at the white throne judgement. Only those who are written in the book of life avoid the lake of fire. In a couple of these verses it talks about the names being written before the foundation of the world, will be those who worship the Lamb, and will not wonder at the beast. If names are written before the foundation of the earth, can it be assumed that names will not be added at the time of judgement? Phil 4:3 Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life. Rev 3: 4 But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ Rev 13: 7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. Rev 17: “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. Okay, I accept that but that means even believers are going to be judged by their deeds which means that some of us are going to be in a lot of trouble. I thought our sins have been forgiven, but now you are saying that we are going to be judged by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted March 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,990 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,688 Content Per Day: 11.83 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2014 I do believe that is judgement. God already knows all who will be saved, and all that won't. The verdict is already known by God, but that does not mean that it is not judgement. God judges differently then humans. He doesn't need to discover the truth as to the guilt or innocence. Since God already knows, before we were born, the judgement is to show us. And to show that God is just. That doesn't make sense. Why bother to break down a person's deeds? So Jesus is going to list a person's deeds (including the good ones) just to show us that he is judging people, but condemn them all anyway. Consider the words 'according to'. You do realise that this is a conditional statement? The words 'according to' suggest that the deeds will be taken into consideration, that they influence the verdict. Nowhere in the Bible do these words mean anything else. If the verdict is based purely on whether you were a believer or not then the deeds are irrelevant. Unless you believe that there are several different levels of Hell and God is using your deeds to determine which one you go to, then I can't see any other explanation. But there is nothing in scripture (to my knowledge) to suggest that there are different types of Hell. Remember that Jesus gave us the gift of salvation free of charge. Believers accepted this gift. Non-believers didn't. They have to work for their salvation and that is why they are judged. Ok, can a person earn their salvation by their works. The bible answers that question, and the answer is no. When Adam sinned, mankind fell. Some have asked if they are going to hell, because of Adam. The answer is no. Some have said that rejection of Jesus is the reason people go to hell. That is also not true. People go to hell because they have sinned. The penalty of sin is death, and the lake of fire is called the second death. It is the final death and punishment for sin. I have explained this by asking a few questions in the past. If Jesus had never come, never died for sins, we would all go to hell. Why? Because we all sinned. Our final destination would be hell, which is what we all deserve because we violated the law. So, the most basic of truths is that we all violated the law, sinned, and all deserve hell. No amount of good work can alter the fact that we all violated, broke the law and the penalty for that is death/hell. There is not a single person who can truthfully say they have not sinned and there is not a single person who can claim such superior good works which changes that fact that we have sinned. So, people do not go to hell because they rejected Jesus. They are going to hell because they violated the law and sinned and if Jesus never came, that was already our destination and that is where we would all rightfully go. Jesus came on a rescue mission to people who were already in violation of the law, headed to hell, sinners. So, when people stand before the white throne judgement, they are already known to be sinners, destined for hell. God will show them all of the sins they have done, and I believe God will show them their thoughts which were prideful, or self righteous, or self motivated. Why are they condemned? What is their charge? God knows they are guilty but at the judgement of what they did, they will discover just how guilty they are. And they will understand that God is just. The Bible does not say that salvation by works is impossible. It says that you can't achieve salvation by works alone. You have to come through Jesus Christ. Every person who is judged is judged by Jesus Christ. So therefore every person is going to be judged by Jesus Christ, and will have his or her final destiny determined by Jesus Christ. You haven't addressed my points, nor my interpretation of what has been said. You're assuming that God already knows who is condemned and who isn't. I don't dispute that, maybe he does. All I am saying is that Revelation 20:12-30 suggests to me that works are the primary method of judgement for non-believers. The scriptures say this. What else does 'judged according to what they have done' mean? What else could it mean? Of course, the non-believers will no longer be be non-believers when they meet Christ. They can't be any longer because they will see him, but then they will know whether he chooses them or not. I thought I did answer or respond to your post. Our 'works' pre-born again, are typically sinful. If a person steals, that is a work, and it is sin. If a person gives money to charity, that is work, and the only way to know if it was sinful is by knowing a persons thoughts/heart, which Jesus would. If that person is giving because they love the accolades for being a giver, then it is sin. Jesus is indeed judging works, (and thoughts and motivations for doing the works which is part of the work), and every single person has sinned/violated the law. But you bring up another interesting point. Does a non-believer mean a person who doesn't believe Jesus was real? Or a person who does not believe Jesus is the Messiah, Savior and/or Lord? I believe there are people who grew up in a Christian based religion and know that Jesus is 'Christ', God and savior, but have not accepted His offer of salvation from sin and the penalty of sin. Some people believe themselves to be Christian by family tradition but have never personally made a decision to follow Jesus. Having met Jesus does not guarantee salvation (as is evidenced in scripture), being taught about Who Jesus is and What He did does not guarantee salvation. I'm not saying that Jesus' standards won't be extremely high or that he would use different criteria to us when he judges.All you're doing is giving me more and more reasons why you think he would judge harshly (I'm really glad that you're not the one doing the judging, you'd be mercilessly tough). What I am saying is that there is no point in judging if all verdicts are predetermined. As for what type of non-believer I mean, I don't know. I have no idea. Scripture doesn't say. It just mentions 'the dead, great and small'. You are right, I might be too harsh, and at times, I might be too soft. In the end, the criteria is already set by God who is just. I believe salvation is by faith in Jesus thru grace, with no works but once saved our 'works' change along with our new nature. I believe there isn't a single person on earth who has not sinned, and therefore all are rightfully destined for hell because of their crime doing works and thoughts of sin. Actually, I think the main difference in our views is that I believe the only time a person is given to believe in Jesus completed work is before they die. As long as a person 'has breath' there is hope. Once a person dies, they either go to be with the Lord, or they reside in hell, waiting for the final judgement. For the saints, the judgement will sort thru the works, and either burning up those works of flesh, and receiving awards for those works of Spirit. My views aren't necessarily different from yours, but Revelation 20 has made me think that I may have to change my mind.. Purely from its interpretation alone, it is making me think that hope is possible for non-believers even after death. I can't interpret it in any other way. After a person dies and has not asked Jesus Christ into their life I am afraid there is no hope.They will go to hell.They have made a choice. Please explain Revelation 20 12-13 then please. Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29). Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-first-second.html#ixzz2x5e5sqmI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted March 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Author Share Posted March 26, 2014 My original question pertained to the word judgement. All I have been given is a list of different people, who was who and who would be judged at what times. I get the fact that Rev 20:12-13 refers to the ones judged by God at the great White throne judgement, but why judge them if their fate is already sealed? Who says that they are all going into the lake of fire? Revelation does not say that. It only says that those of them whose names are not written in the Book of Life go into the fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted March 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,990 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,688 Content Per Day: 11.83 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2014 There are two judgments.One is called the Judgment Seat of Christ/Bema Seat judgment.That is I believe right at the rapture.All those who have been written in the Lambs Book of life will be judged.We are Christians and we are saved and will go to heaven but we will be judged for everything that we have done while in these earthly bodies.Rewards will be distributed or taken away.Then there is the Great White Throne judgment.The believers will not participate in that judgment.These people are written in the Book of life.They will be judged for everything they have ever said,thought and everything good or bad they have done while in their earthly bodies.The reason I feel that there is degrees of punishment in hell is that why would God judge them and just tell them that they do not believe in Him?God has a tremendous amount of grace and mercy and compassion.That is why I think there will be degrees of punishment in hell.But it will all be horrible.Hell is eternity but I am questioning the degree of punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted March 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Author Share Posted March 26, 2014 There are two judgments.One is called the Judgment Seat of Christ/Bema Seat judgment.That is I believe right at the rapture.All those who have been written in the Lambs Book of life will be judged.We are Christians and we are saved and will go to heaven but we will be judged for everything that we have done while in these earthly bodies.Rewards will be distributed or taken away.Then there is the Great White Throne judgment.The believers will not participate in that judgment.These people are written in the Book of life.They will be judged for everything they have ever said,thought and everything good or bad they have done while in their earthly bodies.The reason I feel that there is degrees of punishment in hell is that why would God judge them and just tell them that they do not believe in Him?God has a tremendous amount of grace and mercy and compassion.That is why I think there will be degrees of punishment in hell.But it will all be horrible.Hell is eternity but I am questioning the degree of punishment. Now that makes sense if you believe in different degrees of Hell because now there is a reason to judge, but if there is only one Hell (the Lake of Fire for example) then the only alternative is that some of them may receive salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted March 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2014 Ok, one more pass, the way I understand the verses Rev 20 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. I'll start with verse 12. Those who were dead have been resurrected for the white throne judgement. Among the people are those who were great in life. I understand greatness to be one who was considered great in life. One example might be Napolean. Churchill would be another. Gandhi another. And to not forget women, Joan of Arc. These were all men who held high positions of respect among people. Small would be the nobodies, people who no one had heard of, who didn't make the history books etc. This would fit in with God not being a respecter of persons. Great and small will stand before the throne. Their greatness or smallness do not enter, but what is recorded in the two books. 11 books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. We appear to have the book of life. Elsewhere in scripture, it is made plain that this is the book with the names of those who believe in Jesus. Another book has the deeds. People were judged according to their deeds, but then it says if their names were not found in the book of like, they are thrown in the lake of fire. What is missing is any clear statement as to whether anyone judged by their deeds could then have their names written in the book of life at the white throne judgement. Only those who are written in the book of life avoid the lake of fire. In a couple of these verses it talks about the names being written before the foundation of the world, will be those who worship the Lamb, and will not wonder at the beast. If names are written before the foundation of the earth, can it be assumed that names will not be added at the time of judgement? Phil 4:3 Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life. Rev 3: 4 But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ Rev 13: 7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. Rev 17: “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. Okay, I accept that but that means even believers are going to be judged by their deeds which means that some of us are going to be in a lot of trouble. I thought our sins have been forgiven, but now you are saying that we are going to be judged by them. We will be judged by our deeds, but if Jesus died for all of our sins, we are not going to be in a lot of trouble. Not that we haven't sinned, but because Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. The 'judgement seat of Christ' is where those who have already had our sins forgiven will be judged for rewards. 2 Tim 4:8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing. James 1:12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 1 Peter 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 1 Cor 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. This judgement is called the Bema judgement, so I looked up Bema which is a Greek word. One of the contexts was that during Roman games, those who successfully participated would go before the Bema/judgement, to be judged as to which rewards they would receive. Now for the timing. 1 Thes 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. The resurrection mentioned is not the same as the one of judgement. This one is when Jesus returns, before the thousand year reign, and the resurrection of the dead for the throne judgement is at the end of the thousand year reign. Rev 20:1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. 7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. Those who are 'in Christ' are resurrected and judged for rewards before the millenium. Those who are not in Christ are judged after the millenium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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