THE RESTRAINER

[ARGOSY]

I enjoy a good point, and at face value you seemed to make one. however on closer analysis most of Revelation is written in the past tense, even events that are undoubtedly future. Some examples of this are the second coming, and the millenium:

rev 20: They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.

Rev 19:

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh

So that refutes your argument that the usage of the past tense is referring to past events.

No, not really. When Jesus spoke to John in Revelation 1:19, Jesus said "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this." Though John wrote of what he was witnessing, it was in the past tense to him, but is not always in the past tense to us, so scripture has to back up scripture.

We know the birth of Jesus, the flight into Egypt, the slaughter of male children 2 and younger, and the beginning of what the church (His body) would go through are all past history. We also know through scripture that the tribulation is the future. While studying scripture, one needs to pay attention to, and understand, the context it is written in. Trying to make the past and the future into one event is not how scripture is written.

 

Furthermore are you a preterist?

No. I am not sure how you would come up with this since I have always spoken otherwise.

 

Whether your answer is yes or no to that question, kindly provide me with the period in history when you feel that Israel was kept safe for 3.5 years while Christians were being persecuted:

When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

The woman spoken of here is Mary, the mother of Jesus, who gave birth to Him. The woman is not Israel. Mary was in Egypt, I believe, for 3 1/2 years before they all returned. Some early writer give this time between one and seven years. Scripture tells us she fled into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years, so I will stick with scripture.

Revelation 12:6

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

and again in Revelation 12:14

 

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

Normally its preterists that place various 3.5 year periods into history rather than into the great tribulation, that is why I asked the question. I see your view as impossible in the context of Rev 12. This chapter has continuous reference to believers. The fall of Satan mentioned here, and the subsequent persecution of the saints are definitely/undoubtedly related to the church age, to us believers. So we will just have to agree to disagree and those who are on the fence regarding this issue can have another look at the relevant bible verses to decide for themselves whether this is honestly a church age event, or has occurred before the crucifixion of Jesus:

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And THEY OVERCAME HIM BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB, and by the WORD OF THEIR TESTIMONY; and they loved not their lives unto the death. THEREFORE rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.

I specifically see the word "therefore" as emphasizing the sequence of events. Born-again church age believers overcome Satan by the blood of the lamb, the definite result of this is THEREFORE rejoicing in heaven and woe to earth and Satan's 3.5 years of wrath on earth. And so I cannot agree with your sequence of events because the text indicates the fall comes after the testimony of believers in the church age.

[ARGOSY]

Argosy

 

Where does Satan go when he is taken out of the way of restraining your lawless one?

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Let me repeat, in context Satan does not restrain the lawless one. Satan hides the identity of the lawless one, and withholds the SECRET lawlessness.

In Rev 12 He is forcibly removed from heaven and goes down to earth:

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The bible is clear Satan is currently the ruler of the air , and our enemies are the rulers and authorities in heavenly places. In Rev 12 he gets thrown out of this upper location, and is thrown to earth. This is followed by a short period of wrath which closely resembles the 3.5 years of persecution of Christians described in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Greetings everyone,

The "restrainer" is a subject that I generally try to avoid, because, well, no one can ever prove his identity, and the fact that no one ever wins this discussion, not that I've ever seen, anyway.

So I still do not intend to get involved in this discussion. But I see that there is disagreement on the woman and dragon in Rev. 12, so I thought I would give an alternative view of what this is. Verse (1) says that it is a great sign that appears in heaven, not the usual written prophecy. With all of excitement of the signs we're witnessing in the heavens lately (star of Bethlehem, star of David alignments and the coming blood moons), this could be another sign for the end of this age. Could it be, that the gospel story has been written in the heavens? I believe it is not only possible, but it is the only thing that I can see that adequately explains this phenomenon. Check out these short videos:

Cheers

[OneLight]

Normally its preterists that place various 3.5 year periods into history rather than into the great tribulation, that is why I asked the question. I see your view as impossible in the context of Rev 12. This chapter has continuous reference to believers. The fall of Satan mentioned here, and the subsequent persecution of the saints are definitely/undoubtedly related to the church age, to us believers. So we will just have to agree to disagree and those who are on the fence regarding this issue can have another look at the relevant bible verses to decide for themselves whether this is honestly a church age event, or has occurred before the crucifixion of Jesus:

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And THEY OVERCAME HIM BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB, and by the WORD OF THEIR TESTIMONY; and they loved not their lives unto the death. THEREFORE rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.

I specifically see the word "therefore" as emphasizing the sequence of events. Born-again church age believers overcome Satan by the blood of the lamb, the definite result of this is THEREFORE rejoicing in heaven and woe to earth and Satan's 3.5 years of wrath on earth. And so I cannot agree with your sequence of events because the text indicates the fall comes after the testimony of believers in the church age.

You may not realize this, but I am referring to the church age. I believe the church age began at Christ birth. Was there a church at that time in Christ?  Not as we have it now, but He was building it since birth. Christ had to grow and develop to the point where HE began His ministry, but that does not mean the church age had not begun. 

 

Revelation sometimes encompasses many years within a chapter, as it does in Revelation 12.  Again, Revelation 12 begins at the time of Christ birth and moves forward to when His followers defeat Satan by His blood at His Crucifixion and Resurrection.   The revealing of the son of perdition in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a future event, yet to take place.

[Enoch2021]

 

You may not realize this, but I am referring to the church age. I believe the church age began at Christ birth. Was there a church at that time in Christ?  Not as we have it now, but He was building it since birth. Christ had to grow and develop to the point where HE began His ministry, but that does not mean the church age had not begun. 

 

Revelation sometimes encompasses many years within a chapter, as it does in Revelation 12.  Again, Revelation 12 begins at the time of Christ birth and moves forward to when His followers defeat Satan by His blood at His Crucifixion and Resurrection.   The revealing of the son of perdition in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a future event, yet to take place.

 

 

==================================================================================

 

Hey OneLight,

 

I'm gonna have to vehemently disagree with you here:

 

You may not realize this, but I am referring to the church age. I believe the church age began at Christ birth. Was there a church at that time in Christ?  Not as we have it now, but He was building it since birth. Christ had to grow and develop to the point where HE began His ministry, but that does not mean the church age had not begun.

 

 

It may appear that I'm splitting hairs here but it's important.  How could the "Church Age" Start @ Christ's Birth when the Church was born @ Pentecost?

 

Moreover, John The Baptist was the Last of the OT Saints, in other words, the OT Closed with John The Baptist.....

 

(Matthew 11:11) " Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

 

Again, Revelation 12 begins at the time of Christ birth and moves forward to when His followers defeat Satan by His blood at His Crucifixion and Resurrection.

 

This is Incorrect as I have mentioned previously.  The Woman in Revelation 12 is Clearly Israel and matches Josephs Dream in Genesis.... 

 

(Genesis 37:9) "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me." (Joseph is the 12th Star)

 

(Revelation 12:1) "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

 

 

For your scenario to be True, The woman of Revelation 12 has to Mary.  Please show Scriptural support for the Bolded Parts....

 

(Revelation 12:15) "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

 

(Revelation 12:16) "And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

 

(Revelation 12:17) "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

 

And when was Mary Persecuted??....

 

(Revelation 12:13) "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

 

 

Moreover,

 

(Revelation 12:7-9) "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,  {8} And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.  {9} And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

 

Are you saying this :rolleyes: happened during Christ's Life/ Ministry?

[OneLight]

You may not realize this, but I am referring to the church age. I believe the church age began at Christ birth. Was there a church at that time in Christ?  Not as we have it now, but He was building it since birth. Christ had to grow and develop to the point where HE began His ministry, but that does not mean the church age had not begun. 

 

Revelation sometimes encompasses many years within a chapter, as it does in Revelation 12.  Again, Revelation 12 begins at the time of Christ birth and moves forward to when His followers defeat Satan by His blood at His Crucifixion and Resurrection.   The revealing of the son of perdition in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a future event, yet to take place.

 

==================================================================================

 

Hey OneLight,

 

I'm gonna have to vehemently disagree with you here:

 

You may not realize this, but I am referring to the church age. I believe the church age began at Christ birth. Was there a church at that time in Christ?  Not as we have it now, but He was building it since birth. Christ had to grow and develop to the point where HE began His ministry, but that does not mean the church age had not begun.

 

It may appear that I'm splitting hairs here but it's important.  How could the "Church Age" Start @ Christ's Birth when the Church was born @ Pentecost?

 

Moreover, John The Baptist was the Last of the OT Saints, in other words, the OT Closed with John The Baptist.....

 

(Matthew 11:11) " Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

This is why you are missing what is obvious. Pentecost is where the Holy Spirit was given as promised, not the beginning of the church age. The beginning was when God became man and lived amongst us. Everything has it's own season and time.  Matthew 11:11 speaks of John the Baptist, but not as the division of the OC and the NC. Christ is that division.

 

Again, Revelation 12 begins at the time of Christ birth and moves forward to when His followers defeat Satan by His blood at His Crucifixion and Resurrection.

 

This is Incorrect as I have mentioned previously.  The Woman in Revelation 12 is Clearly Israel and matches Josephs Dream in Genesis.... 

 

(Genesis 37:9) "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me." (Joseph is the 12th Star)

 

(Revelation 12:1) "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

 

 

For your scenario to be True, The woman of Revelation 12 has to Mary.  Please show Scriptural support for the Bolded Parts....

 

(Revelation 12:15) "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

 

(Revelation 12:16) "And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

 

(Revelation 12:17) "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

 

And when was Mary Persecuted??....

 

(Revelation 12:13) "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

 

 

Moreover,

 

(Revelation 12:7-9) "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,  {8} And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.  {9} And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

 

Are you saying this :rolleyes: happened during Christ's Life/ Ministry?

You left out a lot of Revelation 12. Why is that? What points to Mary and His birth, as you can see, begins in verse 3 where another sign is shown.

 

And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Revelation is my written with a wide brush, but a very fine one where we have to pay attention to every detail. Revelation 12:1-6 is about the birth of Christ. Revelation 12:7-12 is about the battle in heaven. Revelation 13:13-17 is about the presumption of His family and of His followers.

You can disagree all you want, as I disagree with what you present. Yet, because we say what we say does not make either of us correct for we all look through a glass darkly or in a mirror dimly. This is a discussion and not a battle where the one standing wins.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

==================================================================================

 

Matthew 11:11 speaks of John the Baptist, but not as the division of the OC and the NC. Christ is that division.

 

Well no, it doesn't say it ...it's deduced from the content of the verse:

 

(Matthew 11:11) " Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

 

With Special attention to the Bolded Part.

 

Sorry, forgot to add this one...

 

(Matthew 11:13) " For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."

 

 

You can disagree all you want, as I disagree with what you present. Yet, because we say what we say does not make either of us correct for we all look through a glass darkly or in a mirror dimly. This is a discussion and not a battle where the one standing wins.

 

I don't see it as a case for agreement or disagreement, especially in a case where it is Crystal Clear.  I posted 7 questions with Scripture (comparing Scripture with Scripture) for the 2nd time without any response to either of them.  To disagree with something is fine but there has to be some kind of support as the foundation or basis for it.  If this is Mary, then it should be quite easy to show IMHO.... from the context and supporting passages.

 

 

Yet, because we say what we say does not make either of us correct for we all look through a glass darkly or in a mirror dimly.

 

I've heard this a number of times on this forum "we all look through a glass darkly or in a mirror dimly".

 

Does this mean we can't Ascertain ABSOLUTE TRUTH?

 

 

This is a discussion and not a battle where the one standing wins.

 

Well I'm admonished to....

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

 

(2 Timothy 3:16) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

 

(2 Timothy 2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

 

and...

 

(2 Peter 1:20) "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

 

 

This is not a Game or a Battle to me....just simply, a search for TRUTH (The Absolute Variety)

[OneLight]

Matthew 11:11 speaks of John the Baptist, but not as the division of the OC and the NC. Christ is that division.

 

Well no, it doesn't say it ...it's deduced from the content of the verse:

 

(Matthew 11:11) " Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

 

With Special attention to the Bolded Part.

 

Sorry, forgot to add this one...

 

(Matthew 11:13) " For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."

Then you are saying that John the Baptist is the beginning of the church age, not Christ. Sorry, but that is far from the truth. The church age came in when Christ was born. The Law and Prophets did point to John, but he was not the beginning of the NC.

 

 

You can disagree all you want, as I disagree with what you present. Yet, because we say what we say does not make either of us correct for we all look through a glass darkly or in a mirror dimly. This is a discussion and not a battle where the one standing wins.

 

I don't see it as a case for agreement or disagreement, especially in a case where it is Crystal Clear.  I posted 7 questions with Scripture (comparing Scripture with Scripture) for the 2nd time without any response to either of them.  To disagree with something is fine but there has to be some kind of support as the foundation or basis for it.  If this is Mary, then it should be quite easy to show IMHO.... from the context and supporting passages.

 

 

Yet, because we say what we say does not make either of us correct for we all look through a glass darkly or in a mirror dimly.

 

I've heard this a number of times on this forum "we all look through a glass darkly or in a mirror dimly".

 

Does this mean we can't Ascertain ABSOLUTE TRUTH?

Yes, the Holy Spirit will teach us the truth, but that does not mean we fully understand everything. To say we do would be arrogant and prideful, not to say ignoring what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13:12

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

 

 

This is a discussion and not a battle where the one standing wins.

 

Well I'm admonished to....

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

 

(2 Timothy 3:16) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

 

(2 Timothy 2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

 

and...

 

(2 Peter 1:20) "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

 

 

This is not a Game or a Battle to me....just simply, a search for TRUTH (The Absolute Variety)

Seeking the truth is what we all should be doing, but thinking one has Absolute Truth while on this earth is only leading one to becoming delusional. There is only one who had the Absolute Truth, and we are not Him.

[MorningGlory]

 

This is what the chapter means:

 

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (ANTICHRIST) is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what (SATAN) is holding him (ANTICHRIST) back, so that he (ANTICHRIST) may be revealed at the proper time. For the SECRET power of lawlessness (SPIRIT OF ANTICRIST) is already at work; but the one (SATAN) who now holds IT (the secret/revealing) back will continue to do so till he (SATAN) is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one (ANTICHRIST) will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

 

 

When is satan taken out of the way?  I don't get it.  I believe the AC is indwelt by satan. 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

=========================================================

 

 

Then you are saying that John the Baptist is the beginning of the church age,

 

No I'm saying he was the Last of the OT Saints, the OT closed with him not Malachi...  Which is clear from the verses I provided.  The Church was Born @ Pentecost...See: Acts Chapter 1 and 2.

 

 

but thinking one has Absolute Truth while on this earth

 

This is a Strawman.  I never said That I personally have it; However, it's in a BOOK sitting in front of me 

 

but that does not mean we fully understand everything. To say we do would be arrogant and prideful

 

Another Strawman.  I never said I did.

 

 

In addition, concerning the Woman in Rev 12....Israel is described as a Woman in Travail in (Jer 3:6f, Micah 4:10, 5: 2-3)

 

unto "us" (Israel), from Isaiah ....

 

(Isaiah 9:6) "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."