THE RESTRAINER

[ARGOSY]

Any chance the restrainer could be ......

Michael the angel??

Daniel 12:

At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who shall be found written in the book.

 

Its funny that you mention Michael, because Michael remains in his position, but removes Satan at the exact moment the tribulation/Satan's wrath starts, after the church has conquered through our testimony. (Jesus said the end will not come until the gospel has been preached to all nations). We do not see Michael being removed, we see Michael removing Satan:

 

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

[ARGOSY]

There is a difference between loosing their place and loosing a battle. The first means they are not allowed, the latter means they were defeated.

 

 

You may be correct, but the following verse in Rev 12 does actually seem like he lost a heavenly battle, and also lost his place.

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.

[ARGOSY]

Argosy, What does it indicate to you when "the restrainer" is referred to both with the neuter gender and with the masculine gender? Is there any other entity, aside from the Holy Spirit, Who can be referred to both with neuter (because the word for spirit is grammatically neuter) and with the masculine pronoun (as He is a person)?

 

Hi Atwood. I felt this was a good question, one that required research. Looking into the interlinear bible, I believe the neuter gender word "that" has been added into the English  text and was not there in the original Greek. The male gender word isn't there either with reference to the withholder, and only exists with reference to the revealed one (the antichrist).  I believe the Greek meaning is more like this:

 

Now you know of the detaining related to him being revealed in his time.  The secret of lawlessness is already in operation until the one who now detains it becomes out of the midst. 

 

But my knowledge of Greek is restricted to the strong's dictionary and the Greek interlinear bible so you are welcome to check out my facts:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/2th2.pdf

[firestormx]

In these debates, I try to have a good biblical answer for every point discussed. If I am unable to return with a good answer, then its time to reconsider. I cant recall any good points here. Does my view contradict text, context, Greek, order of events?  

 

In Rev 12, isn't Satan removed from heaven 3.5 years before the second coming? This results in 3.5 years of wrath on earth. This is the exact same moment the antichrist comes to power for 42 months according to Rev 13. And this is when the restrainer is removed according to 2 thess 2.   I think the dispensational view may confuse the order of events, that is why people are not seeing that Satan's fall is the same moment as the antichrist's revealing.

May I ask you a question? No disrespect is meant in any way with my comments. Have you researched this? All I can go on is how I research things in scripture. One of the things I look for is a occurrence in scripture before. While not bluntly stated as restraining, that's exactly what happens between God the Father and Satan in the book of Job. God the Father restrains what Satan can and can not do to Job and to Job's life. The Father restrains Satan and will only let him go so far. Just like the Spirit of antichrist since the time of Christ. The Spirit of Antichrist is already at work but restrained at the same time in what it can do, For it can't be revealed. Just as Satan was restrained in the book of Job. Satan couldn't kill Job. What was Stopping Satan from killing Job? To put it another way, What was restraining Satan from killing Job? God the Father and his word.

 

Remember, Try to look at things from another's point of view.

 

Perspective is often reality,  but seldom truth.

 

Jesus is Truth.

 

God bless you.

[ARGOSY]

 

In these debates, I try to have a good biblical answer for every point discussed. If I am unable to return with a good answer, then its time to reconsider. I cant recall any good points here. Does my view contradict text, context, Greek, order of events?  

 

In Rev 12, isn't Satan removed from heaven 3.5 years before the second coming? This results in 3.5 years of wrath on earth. This is the exact same moment the antichrist comes to power for 42 months according to Rev 13. And this is when the restrainer is removed according to 2 thess 2.   I think the dispensational view may confuse the order of events, that is why people are not seeing that Satan's fall is the same moment as the antichrist's revealing.

May I ask you a question? No disrespect is meant in any way with my comments. Have you researched this? All I can go on is how I research things in scripture. One of the things I look for is a occurrence in scripture before. While not bluntly stated as restraining, that's exactly what happens between God the Father and Satan in the book of Job. God the Father restrains what Satan can and can not do to Job and to Job's life. The Father restrains Satan and will only let him go so far. Just like the Spirit of antichrist since the time of Christ. The Spirit of Antichrist is already at work but restrained at the same time in what it can do, For it can't be revealed. Just as Satan was restrained in the book of Job. Satan couldn't kill Job. What was Stopping Satan from killing Job? To put it another way, What was restraining Satan from killing Job? God the Father and his word.

 

Remember, Try to look at things from another's point of view.

 

Perspective is often reality,  but seldom truth.

 

Jesus is Truth.

 

God bless you.

 

Hi firstorm x,

 

try preaching to yourself on this particular issue. Its pretty ironic that you advise me to look at things from the other's point of view, and yet you have failed to even read my posts carefully to try to understand my point of view. I have been patient with everyone for misunderstanding my view until now, but the sheer irony of you missing my point and yet advsing me to see the other's point of view has got to me. It gets a little tiresome when we get so far in this debate, and no one acknowledges my simple point that the withholder is withholding the identity of the lawlessness, he's not withholding the antichrist/satan in any way. All you guys are debating your own strawman, try listening to what I have to say and responding to that.

 

Its obvious God restrains Satan's activity through the ages.   But does God hide the antichrist???  The antichrist is being hidden, do you think its Satan hiding the antichrist, or the Holy Spirit hiding the antichrist?

 

Satan deceives the world. Satan hides the truth. Satan keeps secrets hidden. Satan stops the exposure of truth. So why would the Holy Spirit stop the antichrist from being revealed??? This fits in more with Satan's role of being a deceiver. When Satan is removed from his heavenly position in Rev 12, at that moment the antichrist is also revealed for 3.5 years. So the timing and context are perfect.

 

Now hopefully you don't carry on thinking that I am saying that Satan restrains the antichrist, I am not saying that. If you can respond to my post, actually understanding my post, then we can have a good discussion. But multiple numbers of you arguing against your own strawman is not convincing me one bit, it would be refreshing if one of you reads my post, acknowledging what I am truly saying, and then respond to that.

[firestormx]

Its obvious God restrains Satan's activity through the ages.   But does God hide the antichrist???  The antichrist is being hidden, do you think its Satan hiding the antichrist, or the Holy Spirit hiding the antichrist?

 

Satan deceives the world. Satan hides the truth. Satan keeps secrets hidden. Satan stops the exposure of truth. So why would the Holy Spirit stop the antichrist from being revealed??? This fits in more with Satan's role of being a deceiver. When Satan is removed from his heavenly position in Rev 12, at that moment the antichrist is also revealed for 3.5 years. So the timing and context are perfect.

 

Now hopefully you don't carry on thinking that I am saying that Satan restrains the antichrist, I am not saying that. If you can respond to my post, actually understanding my post, then we can have a good discussion. But multiple numbers of you arguing against your own strawman is not convincing me one bit, it would be refreshing if one of you reads my post, acknowledging what I am truly saying, and then respond to that.

I understand your post. I just disagree with it completely, because it reads to me, ( IMO ) as false and dangerous doctrine. Nobody but the Father knows the hour of the Rapture. The Father keeps this secret from everyone else. The 11 apostles asked Jesus right before he ascended if now it was time for him to restore all things and he said to them it was not for them to know the times and the seasons. In other words, he kept that to himself, he kept it secret. You can't say that it fits better with Satan as deceiver to keep things from us. Especially when the Bible teaches that we know in part now, and will only know as we are known when that which is perfect comes.

You agree in your above post, in the part I bolded and underlined that The Father restrains Satan throughout the ages in scripture. Can you show me in the bible where in this case it's different, and not the Father but Satan? I think you say that it is different, I disagree. By restraining Satan from revealing the anti-Christ, it is kept secret until God the Father says it is time for him to be revealed as written in the word at the abomination which causes desolation. For it is there, when he declares himself God, and demands to be worshiped as God, that the Anti-Christ will be revealed to all for the evil, lying murderer he is and not the man of peace he has been pretending to be. The word declares when the man of lawlessness is revealed, as ordained by God the Father, not Satan. It's in God's power when all things are revealed and brought into the light, not Satan's.

[ARGOSY]

 

Its obvious God restrains Satan's activity through the ages.   But does God hide the antichrist???  The antichrist is being hidden, do you think its Satan hiding the antichrist, or the Holy Spirit hiding the antichrist?

 

Satan deceives the world. Satan hides the truth. Satan keeps secrets hidden. Satan stops the exposure of truth. So why would the Holy Spirit stop the antichrist from being revealed??? This fits in more with Satan's role of being a deceiver. When Satan is removed from his heavenly position in Rev 12, at that moment the antichrist is also revealed for 3.5 years. So the timing and context are perfect.

 

Now hopefully you don't carry on thinking that I am saying that Satan restrains the antichrist, I am not saying that. If you can respond to my post, actually understanding my post, then we can have a good discussion. But multiple numbers of you arguing against your own strawman is not convincing me one bit, it would be refreshing if one of you reads my post, acknowledging what I am truly saying, and then respond to that.

I understand your post. I just disagree with it completely, because it reads to me, ( IMO ) as false and dangerous doctrine. Nobody but the Father knows the hour of the Rapture. The Father keeps this secret from everyone else. The 11 apostles asked Jesus right before he ascended if now it was time for him to restore all things and he said to them it was not for them to know the times and the seasons. In other words, he kept that to himself, he kept it secret. You can't say that it fits better with Satan as deceiver to keep things from us. Especially when the Bible teaches that we know in part now, and will only know as we are known when that which is perfect comes.

You agree in your above post, in the part I bolded and underlined that The Father restrains Satan throughout the ages in scripture. Can you show me in the bible where in this case it's different, and not the Father but Satan? I think you say that it is different, I disagree. By restraining Satan from revealing the anti-Christ, it is kept secret until God the Father says it is time for him to be revealed as written in the word at the abomination which causes desolation. For it is there, when he declares himself God, and demands to be worshiped as God, that the Anti-Christ will be revealed to all for the evil, lying murderer he is and not the man of peace he has been pretending to be. The word declares when the man of lawlessness is revealed, as ordained by God the Father, not Satan. It's in God's power when all things are revealed and brought into the light, not Satan's.

 

 

You make some good points there. Yes God also keeps some secrets, I acknowledge that. So I agree both keep secrets.   The reason its different in this case, is that Satan is the only one recorded elsewhere as being removed at that moment, the Greek means "taken out of the midst". I agree the pre-trib rapture doctrine has the church being removed from earth, but the timing of that event is earlier according to the pre-trib doctrine, and yet the gathering of verse 1-3 occurs later, so we don't have a clear fit. Its actually a contradictory fit that would relate our gathering to after the revealing (v1-3), and then also before the revealing (v7).

 

You asked me to show where Satan withhelds Satan in the bible? You seem to have reverted back to your strawman argument with that question. I don't see the relevance of that question in a discussion about withholding the identity of something evil. Sure I can prove that Satan tells lies, any lie is keeping the truth hidden:

2 Thessalonians 2: 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing

 

Thanks for your focus on the "revealing" being restrained (restraining exposure) , rather than the "antichrist" being restrained (restraining evil). We completely agree that this revealing occurs at God's timing, when Satan is thrown down to earth then antichrist is revealed, and this removal of Satan is through the victory of the church.  In Rev 12 Satan is thrown out of heaven unwillingly by Michael the archangel, at god's timing. This is the same timing as when the antichrist is revealed, I also agree with you that this revealing is when the "abomination" occurs.

 

In conclusion, we agree on a lot, we agree it all occurs at God's timing. We agree that God keeps secrets, but I showed that Satan is a liar, and so he too keeps secrets. I believe the timing of the fall of Satan has a better match than any other entity for the removal of the one who keeps the antichrist from being revealed and so it is the most fitting, unless you have any further argument that would favor another entity?

[firestormx]

You make some good points there. Yes God also keeps some secrets, I acknowledge that. So I agree both keep secrets.   The reason its different in this case, is that Satan is the only one recorded elsewhere as being removed at that moment, the Greek means "taken out of the midst". I agree the pre-trib rapture doctrine has the church being removed from earth, but the timing of that event is earlier according to the pre-trib doctrine, and yet the gathering of verse 1-3 occurs later, so we don't have a clear fit. Its actually a contradictory fit that would relate our gathering to after the revealing (v1-3), and then also before the revealing (v7).

 

You asked me to show where Satan withhelds Satan in the bible? You seem to have reverted back to your strawman argument with that question. I don't see the relevance of that question in a discussion about withholding the identity of something evil. Sure I can prove that Satan tells lies, any lie is keeping the truth hidden:

2 Thessalonians 2: 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing

 

Thanks for your focus on the "revealing" being restrained (restraining exposure) , rather than the "antichrist" being restrained (restraining evil). We completely agree that this revealing occurs at God's timing, when Satan is thrown down to earth then antichrist is revealed, and this removal of Satan is through the victory of the church.  In Rev 12 Satan is thrown out of heaven unwillingly by Michael the archangel, at god's timing. This is the same timing as when the antichrist is revealed, I also agree with you that this revealing is when the "abomination" occurs.

 

In conclusion, we agree on a lot, we agree it all occurs at God's timing. We agree that God keeps secrets, but I showed that Satan is a liar, and so he too keeps secrets. I believe the timing of the fall of Satan has a better match than any other entity for the removal of the one who keeps the antichrist from being revealed and so it is the most fitting, unless you have any further argument that would favor another entity?

I don't have to much of an argument with your understanding of Rev. 12, or the timing of it all. I don't believe Pre-trib, So I don't have any of those hang ups either .  I think this comes down to where our focus and point of view is. I would rather focus and concentrate on the Father and Jesus than Satan. I guess I just like the simple answer. The revealing will take place when God says so. That's good enough for me. Maybe I just am not at the place to probe this any deeper and to see Satan's role in the revealing of his emissary. It will happen, and happen when God said it would. Maybe someone else will come along and engage you on this further. God Bless.

Edited April 15, 2014 by firestormx

[ARGOSY]

 

You make some good points there. Yes God also keeps some secrets, I acknowledge that. So I agree both keep secrets.   The reason its different in this case, is that Satan is the only one recorded elsewhere as being removed at that moment, the Greek means "taken out of the midst". I agree the pre-trib rapture doctrine has the church being removed from earth, but the timing of that event is earlier according to the pre-trib doctrine, and yet the gathering of verse 1-3 occurs later, so we don't have a clear fit. Its actually a contradictory fit that would relate our gathering to after the revealing (v1-3), and then also before the revealing (v7).

 

You asked me to show where Satan withhelds Satan in the bible? You seem to have reverted back to your strawman argument with that question. I don't see the relevance of that question in a discussion about withholding the identity of something evil. Sure I can prove that Satan tells lies, any lie is keeping the truth hidden:

2 Thessalonians 2: 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing

 

Thanks for your focus on the "revealing" being restrained (restraining exposure) , rather than the "antichrist" being restrained (restraining evil). We completely agree that this revealing occurs at God's timing, when Satan is thrown down to earth then antichrist is revealed, and this removal of Satan is through the victory of the church.  In Rev 12 Satan is thrown out of heaven unwillingly by Michael the archangel, at god's timing. This is the same timing as when the antichrist is revealed, I also agree with you that this revealing is when the "abomination" occurs.

 

In conclusion, we agree on a lot, we agree it all occurs at God's timing. We agree that God keeps secrets, but I showed that Satan is a liar, and so he too keeps secrets. I believe the timing of the fall of Satan has a better match than any other entity for the removal of the one who keeps the antichrist from being revealed and so it is the most fitting, unless you have any further argument that would favor another entity?

I don't have to much of an argument with your understanding of Rev. 12, or the timing of it all. I don't believe Pre-trib, So I don't have any of those hang ups either .  I think this comes down to where our focus and point of view is. I would rather focus and concentrate on the Father and Jesus than Satan. I guess I just like the simple answer. The revealing will take place when God says so. That's good enough for me. Maybe I just am not at the place to probe this any deeper and to see Satan's role in the revealing of his emissary. It will happen, and happen when God said it would. Maybe someone else will come along and engage you on this further. God Bless.

 

 

Thanks for the discussion, at least you engaged more than most, others have written off this view as unbiblical without even considering that maybe it fits the context. I think it's a little premature of some to write off a view just because it has an opposite view (evil entity) to the traditional view (good entity). If the entity fits, its a suitable candidate.

 

As for your mention of my apparent focus on Satan here, Satan is mentioned a lot in the bible,  I don't see what's wrong with identifying Satan in scripture. It seems a little religious/superstitious to try not to see Satan in verses that could actually be referring to Satan. God has all the victory, my focus here is on Rev 12. The church completes this age through our testimony, Jesus said the end will not come until the gospel is preached to all nations. We succeed , Satan comes crashing down to earth in anger, thrown out by Michael the Archangel. This all gives glory to God, Satan is not the focus here. Satan tries to keep the antichrist secret, when Satan is removed.... the antichrist is revealed and exposed. Nothing goes Satan's way in this story.

[OneLight]

They lost their place in heaven and lost a battle. And Satan was cast down to earth. Its the moment of casting down to earth that I equate with Satan being taken out of the way. In his heavenly place he was in the way, accusing the brethren, then the church overcomes him by preaching the word to all nations (our testimony) and Satan is removed. Because he is removed he comes to earth in full wrath and is EXPOSED, his pawn the antichrist is REVEALED. This occurs for 3.5 years, a huge clue that we are referring to the tribulation period, which is known in 2 Thessalonians 2 as a short period of Satan's deception on earth. Bingo! we have a match!

 

Satan was removed from the pretense of God, not from all of heaven. IF what you say is true, then the following scripture would have to be a lie.

 

Ephesians 6:10-13

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

 

The Greek word for what is called "heavenly places" is ἐπουράνιος - epouranios (G2032) which basically means:

• existing in heaven
  • things that take place in heaven
  • the heavenly regions
    • heaven itself, the abode of God and angels
    • the lower heavens, of the stars
    • the heavens, of the clouds
  • the heavenly temple or sanctuary
• of heavenly origin or nature

I suggest that the heavenly places are the lower heavens, or the clouds above the earth. Still, they have not lost their place in the heavens, as the word states, just the heavenly temple or sanctuary - the presence of God.

 

Now we have a match!