A different end times scenario to discuss

[Spock]

Hi Spockster,I must say that, honestly, I'm very surprised by this.Just the other day, you realized that there was no way that Matt. 24:29-31 could be the second coming and that you now believed it was the rapture. But now today you are adding another rapture before the 70th week begins? I don't understand.I don't get it, my friend. Do you have any scripture for this? I can only see one rapture, as Jesus laid it all out so wonderfully. The rapture = Matt. 24:29-31 and the second coming = Matt. 25:31.I wish the pre-trib theory were true, but it's just not Biblical in my view. I think one really has to bend and stretch several scriptures to arrive at that conclusion.But for what it's worth, I do like the effort you put into this, though. I hope you'll keep studying, and I'm sure you will.Cheers

Ahhhh, my dear brother has made it here.

Let me try to clear things up-yes, I believe Matt 24:29-31 is a rapture passage (general, main harvest rapture) and yes I believe it follows the abomination of desolation, and yes, this is primarily the rapture for the majority of the church to escape the wrath of God, so in that sense we do agree. Yes?

However, where we differ for now, is I still feel this small select group of faithful Christians will not have to experience one moment of Daniels 70th week. You have to agree, living in the first half of the week means going through the seals, which sounds like tribulation to me. Yes, it is not God's wrath, but it still sounds scary. I'm thinking God will want to deliver these faithful out of that just like he did Enoch. Remember Enoch was taken out quite sometime before the flood. I see this group of faithful Christians as a type of Enoch.

 

Of course, this goes along with my life verse, Luke 21:36: "Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man." (all means all, entire 70th week; no need to test these people, they have already passed)

I just "think" God is going to deliver those faithful ones from the "hour of testing" that will be coming because they are special to God and he sees no reason to "test" them any further. They already passed with an "A" on their exam. (see Philadelphia church promise). Plus, I think this will give the AC his platform to arise and calm down the frantic masses when the news is reporting this mass exodus.

Basically, the only difference we have is that I see an earlier harvest of a small group of faithful Christians that God has mad love for. Everything else seems similar.

So now what do you think?

[Enoch2021]

 

 

I expect after the honeymoon I will see some pretty "upset" people who will express their displeasure at the two raptures because Basically this shows there are first class and second class distinctions of believers in the church who are treated differently. I think this bothers some. It doesn't bother me, but I believe my opinion here is in the minority. We will see.

In addition, this first fruits harvest does not make up a large number of people. I'm not sure how many of the two billion "Christians" are faithful to Christ, but I'm speculating less than 25%.

 

Why be upset?There are many different interpretations here.It is when someone does get upset and thinks they are the only one who is right is when I take caution.

 

 

 

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There are many different interpretations here

 

(2 Peter 1:20) "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

 

It's Black or White..... Scripture either Supports it or it doesn't.   This isn't a "Vote" or "Consensus".

 

When you have people stating that "The Restrainer" is satan or pulling proof texts concerning The Rapture/The Church from a "Heavily Jewish" Book (Matthew), most from Parables no less, who's Target Audience from just a cursory reading of the Book is The Jews;  before "The Church" is even born and HID until it was Paul's Pleasure to announce the Mystery in ....

 

(Ephesians 3:4-6) "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)  {5} Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;  {6} That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

 

(Colossians 1:26-27) "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  {27} To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"

 

Then you have what they call......

 

 

It is when someone does get upset and thinks they are the only one who is right is when I take caution.

 

Well when you walk out and look up @ the Noon Day Cloudless Sky and somebody says it's Coal Mine Black, a level of   enters the Picture.  I don't think "upset" is the right word to characterize the situation....but each has to be evaluated individually, I reckon.

 

Be careful attempting to divine "emotions" from a written thread.  Consider placing your caution @ the doorstep of blatant obfuscations, denial, or outright changing of THE WORD of Almighty GOD.  They're much easier to discern and are Blue Sky Obvious.

[rollinTHUNDER]

I expect after the honeymoon I will see some pretty "upset" people who will express their displeasure at the two raptures because Basically this shows there are first class and second class distinctions of believers in the church who are treated differently.

There is no need to create another rapture to have two different classes. Those who are ready are taken, then those who are not ready will be left. Both are saints that will return with Christ, only one group is not ready (lukewarm) and have soiled their garments. Christ spits them out of His mouth and counsels them to buy from Him gold refined in the fire (Rev.3:15-18). These are the second class, and the least of His brothers.

In addition, this first fruits harvest does not make up a large number of people. I'm not sure how many of the two billion "Christians" are faithful to Christ, but I'm speculating less than 25%.

I don't think we will know what percentage are ready, but whatever the number is, it appears the same number will be martyred, five were wise and five were foolish. So both groups will be a great multitude that no one will be able to count. That's a very sobering thought!

Cheers

[OneLight]

You know what I noticed in reading this thread, the pre-trib crowd was eager to jump on board with this line of thought. I don't see any post- tribbers jumping on board.

 

I have discussed this until I was blue on the face.  People believe what they want to believe, so when it is all figured out, let me know and I will wait and see if it comes true or not.  My concern is to live like He will be here in the next second, but prepare for a long wait.

[ARGOSY]

I just want to throw this out for us to civilly discuss. I'm not saying this is what I believe yet, but it is something I'm leaning toward, considering, weighing, and researching. Your thoughts will be welcomed of course.

So here goes. I will start with a timeline and then add to it as the thread progresses:

1. First Fruits Rapture (think first fruits harvest) of the FAITHFUL CHURCH ONLY -because these believers are watchful, alert, and living for God, not for self or the world, they will be kept from the hour of testing. These are the people who take Luke 21:36 seriously: "Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man."  (I believe ALL these things means all - the entire 70th week, which includes the frightful Seals too.)

 

-these people are special and only are taken to the wedding supper.(think church of Philadelphia promise Rev 3:10)

Hi Spock, interesting thread, but for now I will just deal with with your verse Luke 21:36. I feel that the pre-trib rendering of the verse does not make sense in context, because Jesus is talking to the same group of faithful Christians all the way through Luke 21:

v12 they will lay their hands on YOU

v16 YOU will be betrayed

v18 by YOUR endurance you will gain your lives

v21 when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded

v28 lift up YOUR heads

v31 when YOU see these things happening recognize that the kingdom of God is near

v34 Be on guard, so that YOUR hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness

v36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that YOU may have strength to escape ALL THESE THINGS that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

In context, Jesus is speaking to faithful Christians throughout the entire chapter. Those first seven events DEFINITELY are NOT meant for the less faithful Christians in context. Why then would Jesus have a second rule for "special" Christians that don't even have to go through what other faithful Christians have to endure?

Do you really believe there are two categories here?:

1) Faithful enduring persecuted betrayed Christians

2) An even better more faithful group of Christians who will not endure anything, but will escape all these things

Furthermore Jesus continues to use the word "you" all the way through, as if he is referring to just one group, not two groups.

Taking all the above into account, I view the verse in context meaning:

34 “Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with DISSIPATION and DRUNKENNESS and the WORRIES OF LIFE, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things (TEMPTATIONS) that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.

[ARGOSY]

As for the Philadelphia church, I believe God was just reminding them that they would be raptured on the day of the Lord, and would not have to go through that terrible day of fire and destruction. Its not as if they get preference, its just that God does not have to reprimand them and so is just encouraging them that their destiny is safe, unlike the other churches that needed reprimanding to get keep them on the narrow path. I don't see the phrase "hour of trial" as favoring a symbolic reference to 7 years .. over a symbolic reference to 1 terrible day:

Rev 3:10

Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Maybe someone here can explain why Rev 3 is more likely referring to the whole 7 year tribulation rather than just the day of the Lord?

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Enoch2010....
     I am not a pre-tribber & I don't jump in these conversations for the simple fact that FOR ME it is pretty clear that the Scriptures do not support a pre-trib rapture with just 2 very specific statements,so why bother going any further,,,,we just go round & round & round

o #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately AFTER the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

 

So,if we cannot agree on the interpretation of these Scriptures then I just can't see the point of the conversation...................thats just works for me & I have nothing more to add.......but I do read what the others share anyway,,,,,,,

                                                                                                                                            With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Hindsfeet]

 

You know what I noticed in reading this thread, the pre-trib crowd was eager to jump on board with this line of thought. I don't see any post- tribbers jumping on board.

I expect after the honeymoon I will see some pretty "upset" people who will express their displeasure at the two raptures because Basically this shows there are first class and second class distinctions of believers in the church who are treated differently. I think this bothers some. It doesn't bother me, but I believe my opinion here is in the minority. We will see.

In addition, this first fruits harvest does not make up a large number of people. I'm not sure how many of the two billion "Christians" are faithful to Christ, but I'm speculating less than

 

I dont see this as first and second class, I consider it the amazing Grace and Mercy of God to lose not even one of His precious Elect -whether that be Jew or Gentile. He is a God of many chances.

[Hindsfeet]

As for the Philadelphia church, I believe God was just reminding them that they would be raptured on the day of the Lord, and would not have to go through that terrible day of fire and destruction. Its not as if they get preference, its just that God does not have to reprimand them and so is just encouraging them that their destiny is safe, unlike the other churches that needed reprimanding to get keep them on the narrow path. I don't see the phrase "hour of trial" as favoring a symbolic reference to 7 years .. over a symbolic reference to 1 terrible day:

Rev 3:10

Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Maybe someone here can explain why Rev 3 is more likely referring to the whole 7 year tribulation rather than just the day of the Lord

Because the day of the Lord is the 'end'. It is not 'testing', its done, over, those who dwell on the earth and *still* have not repented.

Matt - What is the sign of your coming (parousia) And the End of the Age?

[Spock]

Kwik,

Thanks for joining in. I'm not sure if you read my original post, but basically, for the most part, you and I actually agree. We both see the MAIN rapture as described in Matt 24:29-31.

Like thunder, our difference lies in the first rapture I now see that is for the faithful believers who have mad love for God and his word and thus, God has mad love for them and wants to keep them from the hour of testing.

I'm not "offended" if you, thunder, or anyone else does not see this special rapture in scripture. I may even be wrong, so no big deal.

Love you, Spock