Will there be a second chance for salvation after the rapture?

[Marilyn C]

Hi Salty,

 

1. You asked me the timing of those two verses - John 5: 28 & 29. Jesus is here talking to the Jews & telling them that all authority has been given to Him from the Father, to execute judgment upon those in the graves. These ones (from ages past) are those who either heard Christ`s word of life or have not heard & are to be judged in regard to their works.  This is after the thousand years.

 

`Then I saw a great white throne & Him who sat on it......& I saw the dead, small & great standing before God, & the books were opened. And another book was opened which is the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.`  (Rev. 20: 11 & 12)

 

 

 

2. Then you asked me are only the `just` resurrected at the timing per that scripture.

 

By the `just,` are you meaning the Body of Christ or the Old Testament saints? To me the Body of Christ does not go to the judgment throne, so that leaves the `just men` of Heb. 12: 23 who also will not be judged as Christ told Israel (John 5: 24). But that is when they will be resurrected to their eternal inheritance in the New Jerusalem as promised to them. (Heb.11: 16)

 

 

3. Now your third question is a very good thought. I commend you Salty for your thinking through scriptures that seem to contradict. And I do feel for you as I see you have not been taught the purposes of God for the 3 groups of people - the Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations. When we don`t realise this important point then all scripture becomes a rather big soup. I will try to explain your question.

 

 

You said - `Since Jesus showed by that how the `resurrection of life` & the `resurrection of damnation` both occur on that day, how can the `dead` of Rev. 20: 5 still be in graves waiting to be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years of Rev. 20.`

 

 

Great question & will probably need more unfolding as it brings into focus the 3 groups. Now Christ said -

 

 

`Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming & now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; & those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, & has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the So of Man.

 

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice & come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, & those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.`  (John. 5: 25 - 29)

 

 

 

Now Salty we know that we, Christians of the Body of Christ are saved through belief in Christ`s sacrifice for us, therefore we are not at the great white throne. However there were many people over the centuries who have never heard of Christ or before His death had occurred. These people are justly judged by God as to how they operated in life. Did they live according to knowing in their conscience `right & wrong,` or did they live to their own selfish ways. These are the types of people in the graves along with those who were promised `a city whose builder & maker was God.` Thus it is according to the revelation that they had that God (by Christ) will judge them.

 

So the `resurrection to life,` and the `resurrection of damnation,` is specifically for those who are not in the Body of Christ, yet have lived their life according to the revelation (conscience / creation)  given - obeying or disobeying.

[Salty]

Hi Salty,

 

1. You asked me the timing of those two verses - John 5: 28 & 29. Jesus is here talking to the Jews & telling them that all authority has been given to Him from the Father, to execute judgment upon those in the graves. These ones (from ages past) are those who either heard Christ`s word of life or have not heard & are to be judged in regard to their works.  This is after the thousand years.

 

`Then I saw a great white throne & Him who sat on it......& I saw the dead, small & great standing before God, & the books were opened. And another book was opened which is the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.`  (Rev. 20: 11 & 12)

 

Absolutely impossible!

 

Why can't you just read that simple John 5:28-29 Scripture as... it is written? Has God blinded you so you cannot do that?

 

John 5:28-29

28    Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29    And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(KJV)

 

 

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming..." - Don't marvel at what? At the event He is getting ready to reveal there!

 

"... for the hour is coming;..." - a certain, specific "hour" is coming, but He does not yet say at this point what the subject is that's coming.

 

"... in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice" - Bingo, that's the time of Christ's coming, the "shout" of 1 Thess.4:16! EVERYONE in the graves will hear that. And they will do what?

 

"And shall come forth..." - they will come up out of their graves! There is only one specific time God's Word declares when that will occur, it's the resurrection to occur at Christ's coming. So is this about the 'resurrection'? Absolutely yes!

 

"...they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life...;" - that's the 1st resurrection of Rev.20, the resurrection of Christ's saints on the day of His coming. That's His elect priests and kings that will reign with Him through the "thousand years" of Rev.20.

 

"... and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." - the wicked, and they are RAISED on that same day too!

 

That Scripture is not difficult at all, for it is about the time when Jesus comes, NOT... the time after His thousand years reign like you have said.

 

 

2. Then you asked me are only the `just` resurrected at the timing per that scripture.

 

By the `just,` are you meaning the Body of Christ or the Old Testament saints? To me the Body of Christ does not go to the judgment throne, so that leaves the `just men` of Heb. 12: 23 who also will not be judged as Christ told Israel (John 5: 24). But that is when they will be resurrected to their eternal inheritance in the New Jerusalem as promised to them. (Heb.11: 16)

 

No, I asked you if ONLY... the just are resurrected on that day PER THAT JOHN 5:28-29 SCRIPTURE.

 

(Of course we already know the just, the "asleep" saints will be resurrected on the day of Christ's coming, so that point was not what my question was about. The question is are those of the Just the only ones resurrected on that day of Christ's return there?)

 

Very, very simple question, and only those John 5:28-29 verses are being addressed in my question. So you have no need to leave the subject of that specific John 5:28-29 Scripture. (Or maybe you cannot answer because you're not given to understand those two simple John 5:28-29 verses; maybe you think only God knows).

 

 

3. Now your third question is a very good thought. I commend you Salty for your thinking through scriptures that seem to contradict. And I do feel for you as I see you have not been taught the purposes of God for the 3 groups of people - the Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations. When we don`t realise this important point then all scripture becomes a rather big soup. I will try to explain your question.

 

Yet the John 5:28-29 Scripture is NOT contradicting anything written in God's Word, nor can it. It apparently is a seeming contradiction to your mind though, because if you read it as it's written it will conflict with 'your view' about resurrection of the "dead" of Rev.20:5. In MY understanding, the two John 5:28-29 and Rev.20:5 Scriptures do NOT... contradict each other.

 

 

 

You said - `Since Jesus showed by that how the `resurrection of life` & the `resurrection of damnation` both occur on that day, how can the `dead` of Rev. 20: 5 still be in graves waiting to be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years of Rev. 20.`

 

 

Great question & will probably need more unfolding as it brings into focus the 3 groups. Now Christ said -

 

 

`Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming & now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; & those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, & has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the So of Man.

 

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice & come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, & those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.`  (John. 5: 25 - 29)

 

Well, that's a mistake with bringing in that John 5:25 part, because it is for a different timing. You should realize that because Jesus in that verse was saying that about the time of His 1st coming right after His Resurrection when He went to preach to the "spirits in prison".

 

But the John 5:28-29 verses are for the time of His 2nd coming, and the resurrection of 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15.

 

 

 

Now Salty we know that we, Christians of the Body of Christ are saved through belief in Christ`s sacrifice for us, therefore we are not at the great white throne. However there were many people over the centuries who have never heard of Christ or before His death had occurred. These people are justly judged by God as to how they operated in life. Did they live according to knowing in their conscience `right & wrong,` or did they live to their own selfish ways. These are the types of people in the graves along with those who were promised `a city whose builder & maker was God.` Thus it is according to the revelation that they had that God (by Christ) will judge them.

 

So the `resurrection to life,` and the `resurrection of damnation,` is specifically for those who are not in the Body of Christ, yet have lived their life according to the revelation (conscience / creation)  given - obeying or disobeying.

 

What? Those of the "resurrection of life" are not His saints??? Where in the world did you get that kind of idea, for that is nowhere written in God's Word?

 

I see you're not going to agree about those John 5:28-29 verses specifically involving the resurrection that will occur on the day of Christ's coming, and how that's when the wicked are raised on that day too, meaning those of Rev.20:5 cannot be about some later resurrection after the thousand years.

 

But that's OK if you cannot see the simplicity of that Scripture, and how it disproves your theory about those of Rev.20:5.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Salty

[Marilyn C]

Hi Salty,

 

Just to clarify, for me to understand your thoughts - you are saying that John 5; 28 - 29 resurrections occur at Christ`s second coming.

 

Can you then explain -

 

1. What happens to those who die in the millennium? (Isa. 65: 20)

2. What happens to those who do not obey during the millennium?  (Zech. 14: 18 & 19)

3. What happens to those who go against Jerusalem at the end of the millennium? (Rev. 20: 7 - 9)

4. The last enemy we are told, is death, (1 Cor. 15: 26) so when do you see that is? 

[Salty]

Hi Salty,

 

Just to clarify, for me to understand your thoughts - you are saying that John 5; 28 - 29 resurrections occur at Christ`s second coming.

 

Can you then explain -

 

1. What happens to those who die in the millennium? (Isa. 65: 20)

2. What happens to those who do not obey during the millennium?  (Zech. 14: 18 & 19)

3. What happens to those who go against Jerusalem at the end of the millennium? (Rev. 20: 7 - 9)

4. The last enemy we are told, is death, (1 Cor. 15: 26) so when do you see that is? 

 

1. Honestly, not all believers equally interpret what kind of body the 'resurrection' is, because they pick and choose what Scripture to use, instead of weighing the whole of Scripture. Isaiah 65:20 is an expression, and it should be easy to grasp why, because have you ever heard of a child that remains a child to die at 100 years old? That was even unheard of back in Genesis when people lived almost a thousand years. When we're given expressions like that we're to use common sense per God's creation and the rest of His Word. He is using that to express the longevity of the spiritual body, because not all people in the resurrection will make it past Christ's thousand years, because remember the "second death" does not occur during the Millennium, but after it is over. And then some will never, ever be subject to death when Jesus returns. So we certainly know that expression is not literal for those of the 1st resurrection don't we?

 

The most accurate definition for what the resurrection is per OT Scripture is by Solomon in Eccl.12:5-7, where he revealed the "silver cord" that keeps our spirit attached to our flesh while alive upon this earth, and is separated at flesh death, our flesh going back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit going back to God Who gave it. That in conjunction with Apostle Paul's Epistles and what our Lord Jesus said about not fearing those who can kill our flesh but not our soul, gives us more info about the resurrection, showing us the difference between a flesh body and a "spiritual body" with soul, and the two types of death (flesh death vs. death of one's spirit with soul in the lake of fire, i.e., the "second death" of Rev.20).

 

 

2. You're not understanding the resurrection in those Zech.14 verses at all. Like Rev.20 revealed, the only death remaining after Christ's return and the 'resurrection', is the "second death". Thusly, you're wrongly interpreting that "plague" of Zech.14:18-19 like it means the "second death". But just when... does the "second death" occur per Rev.20? At the end... of the thousand years.

 

God expects us to use common sense with these things, not get stuck in some religiosity to cloud our minds. Think about it. How can the flesh experience the "second death" without having first gone through a first death? If there's still going to be people in flesh bodies during Christ's Millennium, then that would mean they never died in their flesh in the first place. That wouldn't even point to the idea of resurrection either, but merely a continuing to live in their same flesh bodies of today when Jesus comes and begins His thousand years reign. Yet John 5:28-29 reveals the dead of the just and the wicked will both... be raised on the day of Christ's coming. And then per the interpretation of most, the saints still alive on earth that remain to the time of Christ's coming are 'changed' like Paul taught. But that group of Zech.14 are not 'changed' per your view, and are then still alive in their old flesh bodies of today???

 

No, all alive on earth will be changed to the "spiritual body" type, the just and the unjust, like Paul showed pulling from Isa.25. And it's specifically the spiritual type body that is subject to the "second death" in the "lake of fire", not one's flesh body.

 

 

3. At the end of the Millennium when Satan is loosed to go tempt those unsaved of the nations that went through Christ's thousand years reign, those of them that join in with Satan to come upon the "camp of the saints" will be destroyed by God's consuming fire. It will be the "lake of fire", because Rev.20:10 reveals that is when and how Satan is destroyed.

 

Your next question should then be, will there be any of those peoples of the nations that will NOT agree to go up against the camp with Satan? Yes. That's who those will be that will stand before God's Great White Throne Judgment. The books are opened, and those of them who's names are found in the Book of Life will... be saved, and then no more subject to the "second death" of perishing. Anyone still left of those nations of Rev.20:8 who's names are not found in that Book, are then cast into the lake of fire.

 

In 1 Cor.15 Apostle Paul revealed the two states all peoples will be in during Christ's Millennium. He revealed it per the Greek when gave the change requirements one must go through to have eternal Life through Christ Jesus. All peoples will be in the resurrection state at Christ's coming, including the wicked. That means all will have the "spiritual body" type. Because we know there is a "resurrection of damnation", that means those will have the "spiritual body" type also. It reveals that just having the "spiritual body" is not enough to have eternal Life. The thing Paul called "this mortal" (a separate Greek word) must also put on "immortality" to have eternal Life. Paul was very specific about that requirement in 1 Cor.15:53-54, using 4 separate Greek words.

 

Thusly -

 

"resurrection of life" = will have both the "spiritual body" AND their "mortal" (soul) part will put on "immortality"

 

"resurrection of damnation" = will ONLY have the "spiritual body" and that's all, STILL liable to die, being stil subject to the "second death". This is why these are called "the dead". It's because they are automatically assigned to 'death' until... they convert to Christ Jesus and their names found in the Book of Life.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Salty

[Marilyn C]

Salty,

 

I see you do a lot of study but to me you twist scripture to suit you theories. I do perceive that you don`t realise this, thus I do hope that one day you will come to the full truth of Christ`s character & His purposes. Your attitude shows that you are a `right fighter,` because you believe you are right. But, dear brother, the truth needs to be spoken with respect & care for we are touching the very character of our Lord as we speak of His word.

[Salty]

Salty,

 

I see you do a lot of study but to me you twist scripture to suit you theories. I do perceive that you don`t realise this, thus I do hope that one day you will come to the full truth of Christ`s character & His purposes. Your attitude shows that you are a `right fighter,` because you believe you are right. But, dear brother, the truth needs to be spoken with respect & care for we are touching the very character of our Lord as we speak of His word.

 

I understand your disdain at me for what I've presented. But it's not about me having to be 'right'. Nor did I haphazardly come to that understanding in my post from those Scriptures I referenced. There are more than two Scripture witnesses for what I presented, and most of the time I usually given two or more Scripture witnesses. One of the biggest mistakes brethren make with considering who those Rev.20:5 "dead" are is with forgetting what timing Christ's Millennium is, and the events written to occur that will end this present world age at Christ's second coming by God's consuming fire. That's not to mention the many Scripture pointers to Paul's idea of the "resurrection" and with what kind of body it comes (see also 2 Corinthians 5).

 

Also, what Solomon said in Eccl.12:5-7 is like God's science of our physical and spiritual makeup which He created us with, even the idea of a "silver cord" connection between our flesh and our spirit inside our flesh bodies, with its loosing at flesh death. Truly God blessed Solomon with great wisdom to understand such a thing. But like Apostle Paul said, "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" is by The Holy Spirit, and not of man's wisdom (1 Cor.2:13-16).

[Marilyn C]

Hi Salty,

 

I do not `disdain,` you but feel for you as you run headlong into your own misinterpretations & don`t even realise it.

 

Now when you say,

 

`One of the biggest mistakes brethren make with considering who those Rev. 20: 5 `dead,` are is with forgetting what timing Christ`s Millennium is & the events written to occur that will end this present world age at Christ`s second coming by God`s consuming fire.`

 

 

Does this mean you see Rev. 20: 9 `fire came down from God out of heaven...` at Christ`s second coming?

[Salty]

Hi Salty,

 

I do not `disdain,` you but feel for you as you run headlong into your own misinterpretations & don`t even realise it.

 

Now when you say,

 

`One of the biggest mistakes brethren make with considering who those Rev. 20: 5 `dead,` are is with forgetting what timing Christ`s Millennium is & the events written to occur that will end this present world age at Christ`s second coming by God`s consuming fire.`

 

 

Does this mean you see Rev. 20: 9 `fire came down from God out of heaven...` at Christ`s second coming?

 

Sorry, but I think one of the problems is with how you have misunderstand many Bible Scriptures. The Rev.20:9 event indeed is about God's consuming fire, but not the consuming fire event that's set to end this world like Peter said in 2 Pet.3:10 on the "day of the Lord".

[Marilyn C]

Hi Salty,

 

I fear you are in error. The dead in their sins are not raised with spiritual bodies. It is only the righteous who will have spiritual bodies as Paul tells us.

 

`So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.....` (1 Cor. 15: 42 - 44)

 

To have an eternal body is a wondrous thing for that means we can `do, feel, share, etc etc while those who are just spirits have eternal `death,` meaning they have not `life,` but are alone, in their own torment & pain without all the joys of a body.

[Salty]

Hi Salty,

 

I fear you are in error. The dead in their sins are not raised with spiritual bodies. It is only the righteous who will have spiritual bodies as Paul tells us.

 

`So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.....` (1 Cor. 15: 42 - 44)

 

To have an eternal body is a wondrous thing for that means we can `do, feel, share, etc etc while those who are just spirits have eternal `death,` meaning they have not `life,` but are alone, in their own torment & pain without all the joys of a body.

 

Where did Paul tell us that ONLY the dead in Christ will be raised? Was it here?

Acts 24:14-15

14    But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

15    And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

(KJV)

 

 

or here...

 

John 5:28-29

28    Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29    And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(KJV)

 

 

On the day of Christ's return when 2 Pet.3:10 comes to pass, the flesh bodies of this world will be over. The wicked will be the only ones still subject to the "second death" of Rev.20, which is the casting into the "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's thousand years reign.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Salty