Spock Posted April 20, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 20, 2014 Matt, Greetings my dear brother in Christ. I don't think I have had a chance to formally greet you. ((( manly Hug))))). (I only give holy kisses to the women, I'm weird about that.). . Did I read somewhere that you live in Australia? I read your post 56 and from my point of view, you and I seem to be of one voice. I don't know if you read my thread, "A different end times scenario" but there I came out with some new thinking from my mind. (Always subject to change with new teaching that opens my eyes.) I know this is controversial and may not even be accurate, but for now, I do see two raptures, or harvests if you will. 1. Faithful church harvest-secret, unknown, before tribulation 2. General main harvest-revelation 7 (like you see) Disclaimer: I'm not looking for converts to my way of thinking so you won't disappoint me if you don't agree. In fact, if you say I missed the boat on adding this rapture before the 70th week of Daniel, you won't hurt my feeling one bit. I don't expect too many amens on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt36 Posted April 20, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 93 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) Matt, Greetings my dear brother in Christ. I don't think I have had a chance to formally greet you. ((( manly Hug))))). (I only give holy kisses to the women, I'm weird about that.). . Did I read somewhere that you live in Australia? I read your post 56 and from my point of view, you and I seem to be of one voice. I don't know if you read my thread, "A different end times scenario" but there I came out with some new thinking from my mind. (Always subject to change with new teaching that opens my eyes.) I know this is controversial and may not even be accurate, but for now, I do see two raptures, or harvests if you will. 1. Faithful church harvest-secret, unknown, before tribulation 2. General main harvest-revelation 7 (like you see) Disclaimer: I'm not looking for converts to my way of thinking so you won't disappoint me if you don't agree. In fact, if you say I missed the boat on adding this rapture before the 70th week of Daniel, you won't hurt my feeling one bit. I don't expect too many amens on this one. Nice to meet you also bro and man hugs back. Yep, i live in Aussie. Well i havnt heard of your theory before but it does seem you have a teachable spirit as do i. The Lord hates a proud unteachable spirit, he cant do much with them. So if you like tell me more about your 2 rapture theory, but i might not reply till tommorrow, almost bed time here. God bless you bro. P.S. Did you know that Spock got that sign from a Jewish teacher in a synagogue? Edited April 20, 2014 by Matt36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted April 20, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 20, 2014 Good night Matt, Pleasant dreams. In the morning, here is my thread about the second rapture I look forward to your thoughts on my thinking there. Let me have it bro. Again, great fellowshipping with you, and yes, I knew about Spock's sign coming from Jewish origins. One reason why I like him so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted April 20, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 20, 2014 I hope this chart will help people understand the pre wrath view. Its a good idea to look up the verses quoted. (I used to be pre trib but since ive learned about the pre wrath view the scripture all start to make sense now and flow together nicely, blossom even. Finally the big picture and an easy and clear view of the end times is there. Image thanks to the book, The Sign) Click image to enlarge. Matt The A/C makes his appearance as described in Rev 13, He is killed by the sword and comes back to life. The whole world follows after him. He has authority for only 1,260 days. According to Dan 9:27 - he signs a seven year peace treaty. And this peace is not taken away until the A/D is set up, which is mid trib. (his authority now ends) He is not angelic. Yet, the rider on the 1st horse (Seal) is angelic, for he comes out of heaven. Two separate events and peoples. Now if there is peace on earth for the first 3 1/2 years; the 2nd and 3rd Seals cannot be put there. And then if they cannot be in the first half, why the 1st Seal? The positioning of these Seals in the first half disrupts continuity. Having the Bowl Judgments during the 30 day post 70th Week of Daniel does not fit in. Once the Euphrates River is dried up in the 6th Bowl it will take this 200,000,000 force from the East a minimum of 30 days to travel the 700 or so miles to Armageddon, and this is just the front of the procession. Over a 230 sq mile mass of an army, and this is only the force from the East. What about the armies of the North, South and the European forces. Armageddon is not a one or two day war. Just some of my objections to this chart. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted April 20, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted April 20, 2014 Shalom Matt, I understand the theology behind the Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib and the Partial rapture people are divided over. People have a way of both spreading the events in Revelation into a timeframe wider than scripture reveals, and squeeze them together the =same way. Depending on who you ask, you will receive as many timeline as possible. What I have concretely read about the timing can be found in scripture. Take 2 Thessalonians 2 were we are told in verses 3 and 4. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. In this passage, two things must first happen. the falling away the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition Matthew 24 has a vast array of what will happen before we are taken and His return, but notice, that even in the Great Tribulation, Jesus is saying that they, His followers, should not be deceived during those days. If they are removed, who is Jesus referring to? We can see His believers still around during the Great Tribulation by His own words. Matthew 24-23-28 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. Why would Christ warn His children if they will no longer be around during this time? We also can read in 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. The timing of this event is at the sounding of the Last Trump, not the 6th Seal. As we look more into scripture, we can also see in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. This time, we read that the rapture is again ushered in with a trumpet, but also upon His descending to earth. People spend far too much time trying to pinpoint the timing of the gathering together with Christ and not enough time following scripture. The picture I provided was the sequence of events as portrayed to us in His word. I did not try to provide the timeline of when the rapture will occur for one very solid reason, we just don't know. We, if we so desire to do, can point to many places while using scripture to validate our position, yet, while doing so, neglect other scripture that refutes that point of view. If I was to say when the timing may possibly happen, I would first point to 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 to start, and proceed to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted April 20, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 20, 2014 One light, If I may respond to your last post.... You said: Matthew 24 has a vast array of what will happen before we are taken and His return, but notice, that even in the Great Tribulation, Jesus is saying that they, His followers, should not be deceived during those days. If they are removed, who is Jesus referring to? We can see His believers still around during the Great Tribulation by His own words. Spock: I agree the gathering (rapture) has to take place in the great tribulation AFTER the abomination of desolation.i believe matts chart showed the rapture in the GT. I know Matt believes the rapture is in the GT too. 2 Thess 2 even said the gathering takes place AFTER the departure and the man of sin is revealed (abomination of desolation) so,I believe this lines up. Personally, I would not correlate the last trump in 1 Cor 15 with the last trump in revelation (trumpets). I think many threads have discussed the basis for why it is believed to be an error to do so, so I won't be redundant here. However, think 100 Feast of Trumpets shofar blasts. Lastly, Matt and I both believe the church has been promised to be delivered from the wrath of God. We both believe the day of The Lord begins God's wrath. We see this wrath commencing sometime in the great trib beginning with the trumpet judgments. We follow the revelation timeline: 1. Seals in first half of Daniel week 2. Abomination at midpoint 3. Great trib and God's wrath in the second half of Daniels week 4. Rapture sometime in second half of the week, after sixth seal. After the sealing of the 144,000 in Rev 7, you have what we believe is the rapture, rev 7:12. What follows this? Trumpet judgments-God's wrath. Bottom line: Matthew 24;29 says, "after the tribulation (seal judgments), the sky would reveal signs that will mark his gathering and the rapture of the church that is still here. (I believe faithful church Raptured previously.) I think you agree on most parts, but not sure where you put the timing of the rapture. It sounds like you are still open to this. Feel free to disagree with me or ask me any questions. Spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted April 20, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 20, 2014 Montana, Can you be specific as to why you believe the first half of Daniels week will be a time of peace? I see it as a time of tribulation (not great trib) with the opening of the seals during this time. As you know, this is not peaceful. I also see it as a time the antichrist steps forward and takes control by being shrewd, fixing things, signs and wonders accompanying him (perhaps recovering from a head wound?), and perhaps calming the fears and concerns of the faithful church rapture. Lay it on me brother. Tell me why you think I am wrong. Hit me with your best shot! Spock ready and waiting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted April 20, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 20, 2014 Here also is where some do not take Scripture at its full meaning; 1 Thes 5:9 - For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. This verse is present tense. It was just as meaningful for the Believers in the 1st Century and in year 1000 as in year 1500 as in year 2014. Rom 5:9 - Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's Wrath through Him. This verse is also present tense. The Wrath which we have been appointed not to receive is the Lake of Fire, not the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted April 20, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 20, 2014 Montana, Can you be specific as to why you believe the first half of Daniels week will be a time of peace? I see it as a time of tribulation (not great trib) with the opening of the seals during this time. As you know, this is not peaceful. I also see it as a time the antichrist steps forward and takes control by being shrewd, fixing things, signs and wonders accompanying him (perhaps recovering from a head wound?), and perhaps calming the fears and concerns of the faithful church rapture. Lay it on me brother. Tell me why you think I am wrong. Hit me with your best shot! Spock ready and waiting Spock Rev 13:3b - The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. Now for the Jew; Matt 2415-20 - So when you see standing the holy place the A/D...Flee. v. 21 - For then there will be great distress, unequaled... The Jewish nation is living in a time of peace until the A/D is set up. The 70th Week is all about Israel. The first 69 Weeks were all about Israel. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted April 20, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 20, 2014 Here also is where some do not take Scripture at its full meaning; 1 Thes 5:9 - For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. This verse is present tense. It was just as meaningful for the Believers in the 1st Century and in year 1000 as in year 1500 as in year 2014. Rom 5:9 - Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's Wrath through Him. This verse is also present tense. The Wrath which we have been appointed not to receive is the Lake of Fire, not the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments. In Christ Montana MarvMontana, This is a very good point you make here. Your interpretation also seems to fit in the context. But, Noah was delivered before judgment and so was Lot. Come to think of it, Enoch was removed too. Thanks for sharing. Let me mull over this a bit more. By the way, is it beautiful where you live? Wide open spaces, horses abound, no pollution and traffic lights, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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