Enoch2021 Posted April 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Enoch, I Enjoyed reading your rebuttal. You put a big smile on my face. I've missed you all day here too. Happy Resurrection Sunday by the way. I'm not in any mood to respond, maybe tomorrow, but it looks like we interpret and see things differently on many levels. Shalom my brother Spock out I figured you'd "Thoroughly" enjoy it, that's why I wrote it That's the First Time anyone they ever said they missed me here lol. Don't need to respond.....it will just make the hole bigger to get out of Resurrection Sunday . You also sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted April 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted April 21, 2014 Matthew 24 has a vast array of what will happen before we are taken and His return, but notice, that even in the Great Tribulation, Jesus is saying that they, His followers, should not be deceived during those days. If they are removed, who is Jesus referring to? We can see His believers still around during the Great Tribulation by His own words. Matthew speaks nothing of "The Church" in these Passages; In Fact, he speaks nothing about them in the entire Olivet Discourse. The only way you can rectify this is to Equivocate (Fallacy) "Believers" with the "The Church".I would like for you to show me where I even mentioned the church in my using Matthew 24. ================================================================================== Technically you didn't but it appears you were implying it here in Bold (Message #95)...... Matthew 24 has a vast array of what will happen before we are taken and His return, but notice, that even in the Great Tribulation, Jesus is saying that they, His followers, should not be deceived during those days. If they are removed, who is Jesus referring to? We can see His believers still around during the Great Tribulation by His own words. Matthew 24-23-28“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. Why would Christ warn His children if they will no longer be around during this time? If you weren't implying that..... then my mistake.I don't like to use the term "church" that much due to the misconception that wold mean everyone who belongs to a denomination. If you meant the body of Christ, yes, this is what I meant.Care to explain when this happened in the first century?“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. ================================================================================== If you meant the body of Christ, yes, this is what I meant. Yes "The Church" = Body of Christ (Born Again Christians) Care to explain when this happened in the first century? “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. It didn't, it happens Immediately after Tribulation.Then, how can you say this does not pertain to His body, and as you put it, "The Church"? This is in contradiction to what you said about my statement when you claimed "The only way you can rectify this is to Equivocate (Fallacy) "Believers" with the "The Church"."Can you explain how you see me am trying to mislead, while you use the same hermeneutics? You are starting to confuse me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted April 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted April 21, 2014 ========================================================================= Then, how can you say this does not pertain to His body, and as you put it, "The Church"? This is in contradiction to what you said about my statement when you claimed "The only way you can rectify this is to Equivocate (Fallacy) "Believers" with the "The Church"." Yes because Matthew's Account (The Olivet Discourse) has his "Target Audience" as the Jews/Israel. "The Church" and "Israel" have different Origins and Different Destinies and are distinct from each other..... (Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Also, it would have been impossible for Matthew to reference "The Church" (Born Again Christians) because that Mystery wasn't revealed until it was Paul's honor to reveal it in Eph 3..... (Ephesians 3:5-6) "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; {6} That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:" Can you explain how you see me am trying to mislead, Most of the Time, Equivocations are just errors lacking any malicious intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted April 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 Here also is where some do not take Scripture at its full meaning; 1 Thes 5:9 - For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. This verse is present tense. It was just as meaningful for the Believers in the 1st Century and in year 1000 as in year 1500 as in year 2014. Rom 5:9 - Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's Wrath through Him. This verse is also present tense. The Wrath which we have been appointed not to receive is the Lake of Fire, not the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments. In Christ Montana Marv I disagree. His wrath is furious anger or vengeance as in the days of the flood or the coming Day of the Lord, but the lake of fire is hell, a place of torment and punishment. Cheers RT Why then have we as NT Believers received Salvation? Because we have not been appointed to wrath. This is the essence of 1 Thes 5:9. This is present tense to those who read or hear it. 1 Thes 1:9b - 10 -- They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath. This is a letter to the Thessalonians. It seems that they turned to Christ; and therefore Jesus rescues them from the coming wrath. Rom 1:18 - The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by there wickedness. What is the final outcome of this lifestyle of a sinful nature which has not been redeemed, thus no Salvation. Those at the Great White Throne Judgment are judged by what is written in the books (the books of their lives, their wickedness). Rom 2:5 - Because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when His righteous judgment will be revealed. God will give each person according to what he has done. See God's final wrath is His final judgment; being sent to the Lake of Fire. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollinTHUNDER Posted April 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,985 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 433 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/23/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted April 21, 2014 Here also is where some do not take Scripture at its full meaning; 1 Thes 5:9 - For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. This verse is present tense. It was just as meaningful for the Believers in the 1st Century and in year 1000 as in year 1500 as in year 2014. Rom 5:9 - Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's Wrath through Him. This verse is also present tense. The Wrath which we have been appointed not to receive is the Lake of Fire, not the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments. In ChristMontana MarvI disagree. His wrath is furious anger or vengeance as in the days of the flood or the coming Day of the Lord, but the lake of fire is hell, a place of torment and punishment.CheersRT Why then have we as NT Believers received Salvation? Because we have not been appointed to wrath. This is the essence of 1 Thes 5:9. This is present tense to those who read or hear it.1 Thes 1:9b - 10 -- They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath. This is a letter to the Thessalonians. It seems that they turned to Christ; and therefore Jesus rescues them from the coming wrath. Rom 1:18 - The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by there wickedness. What is the final outcome of this lifestyle of a sinful nature which has not been redeemed, thus no Salvation. Those at the Great White Throne Judgment are judged by what is written in the books (the books of their lives, their wickedness). Rom 2:5 - Because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when His righteous judgment will be revealed. God will give each person according to what he has done. See God's final wrath is His final judgment; being sent to the Lake of Fire. In ChristMontana MarvWrath is defined as intense anger, rage or fury. Satan will be full of it as well, when he is cast to the earth in the great tribulation.The lake of fire is a place. In the core of the earth burns an eternal fire that will never be extinguished. The coming wrath and the lake of fire are different. The flood came and went, and that was God's anger being poured out in Noah's day. The coming wrath will be similar, at the end of God's grace, His righteous anger will consume all unbelievers in the Day of the Lord with fervent heat (nuclear). But the lake of fire does not come or move, for it is always burning under the earth, a bottomless pit. We can get a little glimpse of it when we look into a volcano.Hope that helpsCheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted April 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Here also is where some do not take Scripture at its full meaning; 1 Thes 5:9 - For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. This verse is present tense. It was just as meaningful for the Believers in the 1st Century and in year 1000 as in year 1500 as in year 2014. Rom 5:9 - Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's Wrath through Him. This verse is also present tense. The Wrath which we have been appointed not to receive is the Lake of Fire, not the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments. In Christ Montana Marv I disagree. His wrath is furious anger or vengeance as in the days of the flood or the coming Day of the Lord, but the lake of fire is hell, a place of torment and punishment. Cheers RT Why then have we as NT Believers received Salvation? Because we have not been appointed to wrath. This is the essence of 1 Thes 5:9. This is present tense to those who read or hear it. 1 Thes 1:9b - 10 -- They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath. This is a letter to the Thessalonians. It seems that they turned to Christ; and therefore Jesus rescues them from the coming wrath. Rom 1:18 - The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by there wickedness. What is the final outcome of this lifestyle of a sinful nature which has not been redeemed, thus no Salvation. Those at the Great White Throne Judgment are judged by what is written in the books (the books of their lives, their wickedness). Rom 2:5 - Because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when His righteous judgment will be revealed. God will give each person according to what he has done. See God's final wrath is His final judgment; being sent to the Lake of Fire. In Christ Montana Marv =========================================================== See God's final wrath is His final judgment; being sent to the Lake of Fire. Hey Marv, I believe RT is correct in this specific case and is clear from Scripture. You're putting the Word "Final" before "Wrath and Judgement" to make each equivalent when it's not the case. Not all Judgements are Wrath....."Wrath" and "Eternal Rewards" each come from the result of Righteous Judgement; The Sheep for example.... (Matthew 25:34) "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" We also have Numerous "Wrath's" of GOD that are not Eternal Assignments..... (2 Chronicles 29:8) "Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes." (Numbers 11:33) "And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague." (Revelation 15:7) "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted April 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 Enoch 2021 Why then does one need to receive salvation? So one does not get what they deserve. (I guess those who received salvation are not promised the wrath of the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments.) If that is the case there have been 2000 years of NT Christians who received salvation, yet they all died before this wrath is to come forth and they all missed out on it. I am just saying 1 Thes 5:9 is not specific for the 70th week of Daniel. If it is specific for this final week, why does one need Salvation? Why did previous individuals in Christ need to receive salvation? What have we been saved from? What have we been saved too? In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted April 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Enoch 2021 Why then does one need to receive salvation? So one does not get what they deserve. In Christ Montana Marv ================================================================ Not following your connection here. Yes of course, Jesus voluntarily became Sin for Us and we are Justified through HIM. I'm only speaking to the terms Wrath and Judgement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted April 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Enoch 2021 Why then does one need to receive salvation? So one does not get what they deserve. (I guess those who received salvation are not promised the wrath of the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments.) If that is the case there have been 2000 years of NT Christians who received salvation, yet they all died before this wrath is to come forth and they all missed out on it. I am just saying 1 Thes 5:9 is not specific for the 70th week of Daniel. If it is specific for this final week, why does one need Salvation? Why did previous individuals in Christ need to receive salvation? What have we been saved from? What have we been saved too? In Christ Montana Marv ======================================================= So one does not get what they deserve. I would define that as Mercy....only the ones who Accept IT are Saved. Hell will not be filled with Sinners (we all are) it will be filled with those who rejected the Free Gift. (I guess those who received salvation are not promised the wrath of the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments.) Yes, Pre-Trib Rapture. I am just saying 1 Thes 5:9 is not specific for the 70th week of Daniel. I agree but it doesn't preclude it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted April 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 Enoch 2021 Why then does one need to receive salvation? So one does not get what they deserve. In Christ Montana Marv ================================================================ Not following your connection here. Yes of course, Jesus voluntarily became Sin for Us and we are Justified through HIM. I'm only speaking to the terms Wrath and Judgement Enoch 2021 Who is the audience that 1 Thes 5:9,10 is written for? Is it prophecy or is it promise. If it is prophecy, then this passage was not meant for those who have already died in Christ. Yet, if this passage is promise, it is meant for all those who receive salvation in Christ, including those who have died in Christ. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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