Post Tribbers - Please explain

[Enoch2021]

hi. I like what you wrote here, and like I said to brother Enoch, you may be right. I just don't think anyone could be dogmatic. Your argument makes sense, but so does his. So when both have merit, I just count that up as Who knows?

 

 

Shar is saying the same thing as I am Spock.  No difference except for the last part of her Argument.

 

She "The Wife" Does FOLLOW Christ as clearly outlined in Rev 19.  Here's the confusion......She does not Battle or Fight we are the "cheering section" for the lack of a better phrase.  Christ and Christ alone Battles or Fights, HE doesn't need any help...

 

(Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.  {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.  {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

 

Day of Vengeance = Second Coming

 

See: 

[Spock]

No she didnt say the same as you. She said armies=angels.

I don't believe you said the armies here are angels.

[rollinTHUNDER]

So we are in general agreement, maybe where we currently disagree is the speed with which the saints can both join the Father in heaven for a heavenly marriage feast, and then also come back to earth in holy procession at Armageddon ?  I believe both can occur on one day, especially since  in heaven time itself could also move at a different pace.

Hi ARGOSY,

I see you're still holding on for dear life to the rapture/second coming in a single day. Have you looked into God's feasts yet? I believe this is a stumbling-block to the post-trib theory, just as much as it is for a pre-trib theory as well. 

Christ fulfilled all of the spring feasts on there appointed times in His first coming, just as He will also fulfill the fall feasts on the appointed times.

SPRING FEASTS: First coming

Passover = Christ was sacrificed as the Lamb of God

Unleavened Bread = Bread of life died without leaven (sin)

First Fruits = Head of the Body was resurrected as the first fruits of the dead

Weeks = Pentecost

FALL FEASTS: Second coming

Feast of trumpets = resurrection/rapture on Tishri 1 & 2  (Times of the gentiles fulfilled)

Day of Atonement = Israel's sins forgiven on Tishri 10

Feast of Tabernacles = God with us (second coming) on Tishri 15

When Christ returns to fulfill these fall feasts on the appointed times, exactly as He did in the spring feasts, how could He possibly fulfill them in a single day when they are separated by 15 days?

 

Cheers

[Enoch2021]

No she didnt say the same as you. She said armies=angels.

I don't believe you said the armies here are angels.

 

 

=====================================================================================

 

Spock Rev 19 says armies.  In my previous message concerning this subject....I said,  what/who was One Candidate we can glean from this passage. Obviously, fine linen white and clean was referring to the exact description of what "The Bride" was wearing.

 

I did not speak to what or who the rest of or the additional "make-up" of said armies....it was irrelevant to the point.  Having said that, we have another Scripture that speaks of the Second Coming in the Bible (The Oldest Prophecy in the Bible).....

 

(Jude 1:14-15) "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,  {15} To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

 

Note here, Enoch says saints.....not angels.

 

However....

 

(Matthew 16:27) "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

 

(Matthew 25:31) "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

 

(Matthew 26:53) " Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"

 

There's @ least 12 Legions of them.....Awesome!!!

 

(2 Thessalonians 1:7) "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,"

 

(1 Corinthians 6:3) "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"

 

Clearly a distinction between us and Angels.....and we will Judge Them,  WOW!

 

(Hebrews 12:22) "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,"

 

 

Clearly from the above passages, Angels and Saints are following with HIS Bride (Rev 19) with HIM in HIS Second Coming.  Could the Saints be HIS Bride??....possible.  IMHO, No way to tell from Scripture....unless I'm missing it.

[rollinTHUNDER]

No she didnt say the same as you. She said armies=angels.

I don't believe you said the armies here are angels.

Hi Spockster,

Don't know if this helps your discussion or not, but the angels and saints both wear white, and at the resurrection our glorified bodies will be like the angels, and like the bodies of Moses and Elijah during the transfiguration.

Matthew 22:30

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:25

For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

So when Christ comes with all His holy angels during the second coming, I believe the bride or saints will be included in their company.

 

 

Cheers

[Spock]

Thanks RT,

It looks like I'm in a discussion that I couldn't care less about. Lol

All I said was, "I don't think one could be dogmatic about saying definitively who these people are -saints or angels, and lo and behold, I'm getting a deluge of responses on a subject I have less than 10% interest in.

Go figure. Lol

I have a few days left of vacation before I'm back at work, so I'm going to put all I got into my new pet-two raptures. Ha

[rollinTHUNDER]

I have a few days left of vacation before I'm back at work, so I'm going to put all I got into my new pet-two raptures. Ha

Okay, brother, let me know when you find that other rapture, 'cause I can only see one. Maybe because it's easy to see and in plain sight? 

 

But I betcha you might find it easier if you took off your pre-trib glasses?

 

Cheers

[ARGOSY]

 

So we are in general agreement, maybe where we currently disagree is the speed with which the saints can both join the Father in heaven for a heavenly marriage feast, and then also come back to earth in holy procession at Armageddon ?  I believe both can occur on one day, especially since  in heaven time itself could also move at a different pace.

Hi ARGOSY,

I see you're still holding on for dear life to the rapture/second coming in a single day. Have you looked into God's feasts yet? I believe this is a stumbling-block to the post-trib theory, just as much as it is for a pre-trib theory as well. 

Christ fulfilled all of the spring feasts on there appointed times in His first coming, just as He will also fulfill the fall feasts on the appointed times.

SPRING FEASTS: First coming

Passover = Christ was sacrificed as the Lamb of God

Unleavened Bread = Bread of life died without leaven (sin)

First Fruits = Head of the Body was resurrected as the first fruits of the dead

Weeks = Pentecost

FALL FEASTS: Second coming

Feast of trumpets = resurrection/rapture on Tishri 1 & 2  (Times of the gentiles fulfilled)

Day of Atonement = Israel's sins forgiven on Tishri 10

Feast of Tabernacles = God with us (second coming) on Tishri 15

When Christ returns to fulfill these fall feasts on the appointed times, exactly as He did in the spring feasts, how could He possibly fulfill them in a single day when they are separated by 15 days?

 

Cheers

 

 

I'm not fully convinced that everything will happen exactly according to the timing of the feasts. Its a currently "trendy topic" in the church, but unless there is a verse that specifically informs us that the end-times unfolds as per the OT feasts, I will just see the correlation as an interesting possibility and nothing more. So you will have to show me other end-time scriptures to back up your position that the rapture and the second coming occur on different days.  To me verses like these indicate the same day:

 

Matthew 24:30 And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

1 Cor 15: 21  the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

 

2 Thess 1 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.

 

2 Thess 2:1-3  Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that THE DAY of the Lord has already come.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for THAT DAY will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed

 

1 Thess 4:15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. 

 

Of course these can be interpreted any way we like, but I just feel the most obvious view is that the rapture and the second coming occur on the same day.

[rollinTHUNDER]

So we are in general agreement, maybe where we currently disagree is the speed with which the saints can both join the Father in heaven for a heavenly marriage feast, and then also come back to earth in holy procession at Armageddon ?  I believe both can occur on one day, especially since  in heaven time itself could also move at a different pace.

Hi ARGOSY,

I see you're still holding on for dear life to the rapture/second coming in a single day. Have you looked into God's feasts yet? I believe this is a stumbling-block to the post-trib theory, just as much as it is for a pre-trib theory as well. 

Christ fulfilled all of the spring feasts on there appointed times in His first coming, just as He will also fulfill the fall feasts on the appointed times.

SPRING FEASTS: First coming

Passover = Christ was sacrificed as the Lamb of God

Unleavened Bread = Bread of life died without leaven (sin)

First Fruits = Head of the Body was resurrected as the first fruits of the dead

Weeks = Pentecost

FALL FEASTS: Second coming

Feast of trumpets = resurrection/rapture on Tishri 1 & 2  (Times of the gentiles fulfilled)

Day of Atonement = Israel's sins forgiven on Tishri 10

Feast of Tabernacles = God with us (second coming) on Tishri 15

When Christ returns to fulfill these fall feasts on the appointed times, exactly as He did in the spring feasts, how could He possibly fulfill them in a single day when they are separated by 15 days?

 

Cheers

 

I'm not fully convinced that everything will happen exactly according to the timing of the feasts. Its a currently "trendy topic" in the church, but unless there is a verse that specifically informs us that the end-times unfolds as per the OT feasts, I will just see the correlation as an interesting possibility and nothing more. So you will have to show me other end-time scriptures to back up your position that the rapture and the second coming occur on different days.  To me verses like these indicate the same day:

 

Matthew 24:30 And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

1 Cor 15: 21  the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

 

2 Thess 1 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.

 

2 Thess 2:1-3  Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that THE DAY of the Lord has already come.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for THAT DAY will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed

 

1 Thess 4:15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. 

 

Of course these can be interpreted any way we like, but I just feel the most obvious view is that the rapture and the second coming occur on the same day.

Okay, lets view this from another angle.  The following passage contains many of the same clues as we find in Matt. 24 where He is warning His servants to be ready.  However, in this view, only those servants who are ready will be attending the wedding supper, while those who are not will be left with the unbelievers vs. 46.  Also notice there are two types of punishment (vs. 47-48).  

Luke 12:35-48

“Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them. 38 And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

41 Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?”

42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

 

You agreed with me about the separation of believers during the resurrection/rapture and that many will be martyrs.   But, in order for the rapture and second coming to occur in a single day, many millions of martyrs would all have to be killed while millions are attending the wedding supper, AND then everyone return with the Lord for the second coming the very same day.  This belief also requires that the beast that is waging war and overcoming the saints (Rev. 13:7 martyrs) will be over in a single day as well.  That seems impossible to me as well.  

 

Cheers

[Montana Marv]

And still no post tribber has really commented on the OP.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv