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Post Tribbers - Please explain


Montana Marv

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The 24 Elders:

 

Characteristics:

 

-  Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10)
-  only three are Identified as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US :))
- They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll
- Tribulation begins when the Scroll is Unsealed

 

 

(Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.  {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

 

Who are Kings and Priests:

 

(1 Peter 2:9) "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

 

***(Revelation 1:4-6) "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;  {5} And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,  {6} And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

 

 

*****Also, if you compare Ezekiel's, Isaiah's, Daniel's vision of the Throne Room of GOD to John's Vision in Revelation, what's the ONLY Difference?  Only in John's description do you find the 24 Elders!!

 

 

The 24 Elders Represent the Church (US  :) ).

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============================================================================

 

 

 

Its a day of wrath, the Lamb (Jesus) appears to all. This is definitely the second coming, if you do not agree, I don't like the way in which you interpret the bible. You seem to interpret the bible according to your preconceived ideas about the layout of Revelation, rather than according to the actual words that you are reading.

 

After every point this is what you say?? I'm Speechless, Bewildered, Befuddled, Dumbfounded, Perplexed, and Stupefied with this. 

 

This sums it up........ :huh:10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ------------------------------------->

 

 

 

Lol!  I don't mean it badly Enoch, please try to understand this from my point of view, I've clearly refuted your point. You continue to believe the way you do, despite the clarity of the bible contradicting your position. You say the second coming does not occur during the 7 seals because its the 7 seals first, then the 7 trumpets, then the 7 bowls and the second coming.

 

I'm saying that the second coming definitely occurs in Revelation 6 during the 6th seal and quote this verse to support my position:

 

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

All eyes see the Lamb, its a day of wrath. This is so clearly a second coming event, that your denial thereof shows a lack of commitment to literal biblical wording and I find we have little basis for a discussion on this issue. I  am curious how you interpret Rev 6:12-17?

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Argosy

 

 

The Second Coming is after the Battle of Armageddon,  The earthquake of Rev 16:17-21 is prior to the Battle of Armageddon.  How long will it take 1 1/2 to 2 Billion people to move into this Battle?

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Hi Montana Marv, I see the beginning of the war occurring before the earthquake. In v16 we have the armies gathered, then we have the earthquake in verses 18-20. 

 

anyway you seem to believe Rev 6:15-17 occurs before the second coming, not at the second coming. Why do you think those people are hding from Jesus? Why do various types of people see the Lamb even before the second coming?

 

Please explain, because to me your view is astounding in its implications .... is there a great appearing to the nations on a day of wrath before the second coming?  That is really a strange viewpoint and I would like to know what this appearing is , if you deny its the second coming:

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

 

I'm not trying to embarass you here, its just if you continue to believe your point of the view in the face of clear scriptures, this  is highlighting that your view is based on preconceived ideas, and not on the Word of God. 

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Its a day of wrath, the Lamb (Jesus) appears to all. This is definitely the second coming, if you do not agree, I don't like the way in which you interpret the bible. You seem to interpret the bible according to your preconceived ideas about the layout of Revelation, rather than according to the actual words that you are reading.

 

After every point this is what you say?? I'm Speechless, Bewildered, Befuddled, Dumbfounded, Perplexed, and Stupefied with this. 

 

This sums it up........ :huh:10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ------------------------------------->

 

 

 

Lol!  I don't mean it badly Enoch, please try to understand this from my point of view, I've clearly refuted your point. You continue to believe the way you do, despite the clarity of the bible contradicting your position. You say the second coming does not occur during the 7 seals because its the 7 seals first, then the 7 trumpets, then the 7 bowls and the second coming.

 

I'm saying that the second coming definitely occurs in Revelation 6 during the 6th seal and quote this verse to support my position:

 

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

All eyes see the Lamb, its a day of wrath. This is so clearly a second coming event, that your denial thereof shows a lack of commitment to literal biblical wording and I find we have little basis for a discussion on this issue. I  am curious how you interpret Rev 6:12-17?

 

 

 

=========================================================

 

 

You continue to believe the way you do, despite the clarity of the bible contradicting your position.

 

 

You have yet to refute the smallest of any of the points....concerning The Rapture or the Second Coming.  To stumble through these topics is one thing but to all of a sudden claim that you've refuted someone based on what you've provided is very troubling.

 

You've been shown your error multiple times by a few members here @ Worthy yet continue unabated down the same path. 

 

My advice, go to The LORD with this in Prayer.

 

Hope you find the TRUTH

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Argosy

 

 

The Second Coming is after the Battle of Armageddon,  The earthquake of Rev 16:17-21 is prior to the Battle of Armageddon.  How long will it take 1 1/2 to 2 Billion people to move into this Battle?

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Hi Montana Marv, I see the beginning of the war occurring before the earthquake. In v16 we have the armies gathered, then we have the earthquake in verses 18-20. 

 

anyway you seem to believe Rev 6:15-17 occurs before the second coming, not at the second coming. Why do you think those people are hding from Jesus? Why do various types of people see the Lamb even before the second coming?

 

Please explain, because to me your view is astounding in its implications .... is there a great appearing to the nations on a day of wrath before the second coming?  That is really a strange viewpoint and I would like to know what this appearing is , if you deny its the second coming:

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

 

I'm not trying to embarass you here, its just if you continue to believe your point of the view in the face of clear scriptures, this  is highlighting that your view is based on preconceived ideas, and not on the Word of God. 

 

Argosy

 

My ideas are not preconceived, they are Scripture.  I don't think you can embarrass me here. 

 

First of all you have not considered population bases, geography or people numbers.  How large is this 200,000,000 army with horses from the East?  They occupy in a very tight formation about 230 square miles, or if, about 1/8 of a mile wide they would extend over 1800 miles long. So the other foot soldiers from all the other nations (say 1 Billion strong) would occupy another 270 square miles in a very tight formation.  500 square miles of individuals all heading toward Armageddon which occupies about 180 square miles.  The 6th Bowl is allowing this army from the East to cross on day land, about 700 miles from Armageddon, at least a 30 to 40 day trek.  Rev 19:19 - Then Is saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.  Rev 14:20 - They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses bridles for a distance of 1,600 strata (180 miles).  How long is the Battle of Armageddon?   Is it one day or thirty days.  How long does it take for the fowls of the air to eat the flesh of men and horses?  Maybe forty five days.  See Daniel 12:11,12....   In the 7th Bowl are the Severe earthquake and huge hailstones, yet they cursed God on account of the plague of hail.  This 7th Bowl precedes Armageddon.

 

Those who hid themselves in caves and rocks hide from He who sits on the Throne, not He who sits on the White Horse.  One cannot hide and go into battle at the same time.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Hi guys, my first post.

This is how i see it currently, and im not claiming to be right. My beliefs have changed alot over the decades as continue to learn. I am open to be shown otherwise.

Matt 24 compares with Rev 6 and 7.

 

1st seal (False christs)

Matt24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

This i see as the Antichrist going forth deceiving.

 

2nd seal (wars)

Matt24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:

Rev6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

 

3rd seal (famines)

Matt24:7 .... and there shall be famines,

Rev6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

 

4th seal (killed and hated)

Matt24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Rev6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Beasts should be translated as "beast" as in the antichrist.

 

5th seal (Death)

Matt24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,(Mid point of the 7 years of tribulation) (whoso readeth, let him understand:).......21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Dan11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. (Dan11 shows how matt24 and Rev 6 tie in timewise)

Rev6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

6th seal (Sun moon stars)

Matt24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Or Luke reads as: Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Get ready to be raptured. Told to look up for this as this point which is after the mid point of the trib now)

Rev6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?(About to begin the Day of the Lord)

 

Interlude. Rapture!

Matt24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

7th seal (Wrath of God) Remember Rev 6:17 said that the wrath of God is about to be released.

Matt24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matt speaks of the Son of Man coming, we have seen this happens just as the Day of the Lord starts. Rev 8 shows the first Day of the day of the Lord.)

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

 

So, we see how letting scripture interpret scripture we can see the following:

1. How the 7 seals match to Matt 24

2. The timing of the rapture. ( Some time after the mid point of the trib)

3. That the Day of the Lord immediatly preceeds the rapture.

4. How beleivers suffer Satans wrath in the tribulation but are removed before God wrath on the Day of the Lord.

 

This work i got from Chris White in his video which i have uploaded in my Utube channel. See it here:

 

*** Video removed - we have a forum for videos.  All videos have to be posted in the video forum, any outside of the video forum will be removed. ***

Edited by OneLight
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==========================================================================

 

First Welcome :)

 

I have also come across some of Chris White's material.  He has some good work; however, much is off the reservation IMHO....this fits the latter.

 

Also Bear in mind, Matthew is a Jew and his Book is "Heavily Jewish" and his audience is for the Jews.  As opposed to Luke who is a Gentile and speaks to Gentiles. Compare and Contrast Matthew 24 and Luke 21 they are not the same.  Also the Lineage....Matthew starts @ Abraham (The First Jew) where Luke starts with Adam.  Many other nuances in each Book.

 

The First 3 Seals look good.

 

4th seal (killed and hated)

 

Matt24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 

Rev6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

Beasts should be translated as "beast" as in the antichrist.

 

 

This is The Last Horseman (Pale Horse):  This is Famine and Pestilence and such and does not match Matt 24:9 whatsoever.

 

And Beasts is exactly what it says "BeastS" (Plural) not THE Beast (Singular) or ac.

 

Be very careful not to add or take away from the WORD.  See Warnings: Rev 22:18-19 

 

The Four Horseman (The First Four Seals) match up with Matthews signs below.  Note: These are just the beginning of sorrows.

 

(Matthew 24:7-8) " For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.  {8}  All these are the beginning of sorrows."

 

 

5th seal (Death)

 

Matt24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,(Mid point of the 7 years of tribulation) (whoso readeth, let him understand:).......21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

Dan11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. (Dan11 shows how matt24 and Rev 6 tie in timewise)

 

Rev6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

 

 

Rev 6:9 The Martyrs....... have Zero to do with Matthew 24:15 or Dan 11.  Moreover, Daniel Chapter 11 is speaking to the First "Abomination of Desolation" Antiochus IV (Epiphanes). 

 

 

6th seal (Sun moon stars)

 

Matt24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

Or Luke reads as: Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Get ready to be raptured. Told to look up for this as this point which is after the mid point of the trib now)

 

Rev6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?(About to begin the Day of the Lord)

 

 

Please pay attention to detail it's very important.

 

Matthew 24:29 is talking about "After" Tribulation..... Rev Chapter 6 Tribulation is just "Beginning".  The Signs in the Moon are Different between the two passages....

 

(Matthew 24:29) " Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

 

(Revelation 6:12) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"

 

"moon became as blood" is also confirmed in ACTS as happening "Before"...

 

(Acts 2:20) "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:"

 

Also you're "get ready to be raptured" is Non-Sequitur....The Mystery of "The Church" was HID from the beginning of the world and wasn't revealed until it was Paul's Pleasure to reveal it in Eph 3.

 

 

Interlude. Rapture!

 

Matt24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Rev7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

There is no "Rapture" here.  Revelation 7:9 is referring to the Tribulation Saints....They came out of The Great Tribulation.  The Church was Raptured before Chapter 4:

 

(See: 2 Thess 2:3-9) in connection with Daniel 9:27.

Seven Lampstands (Identified as The Churches Rev Chapter 1) on the Earth in Chapter 1 In Heaven Chapter 4.

Characteristics of the 24 Elders (The Redeemed, Kings and Priests)  Kings and Priests Identified as The Church Rev Chapter 1 and 1 Peter 2:5

 

The Great Tribulation is God's Wrath, He Promised "The Church" they will not see HIS Wrath....(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

 

See also: Matthew doesn't speak of the Church and verse 30 in Context is....."After" Tribulation of those days....

 

(Matthew 24:29) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

 

 

7th seal (Wrath of God) Remember Rev 6:17 said that the wrath of God is about to be released.

 

Matt24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matt speaks of the Son of Man coming, we have seen this happens just as the Day of the Lord starts. Rev 8 shows the first Day of the day of the Lord.)

 

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

 

 

I don't see a Specific Connection between these 2 Passages.

 

Matthew 24:37 is much deeper (See Mischief of Genesis 6 and connection with the Days of Noah). Christ is also speaking to the Unbelievers here not watching and juxtaposing with the same condition of Unbelievers @ HIS Second Coming.

 

So, we see how letting scripture interpret scripture we can see the following:

 

1. How the 7 seals match to Matt 24

2. The timing of the rapture. ( Some time after the mid point of the trib)

3. That the Day of the Lord immediatly preceeds the rapture.

4. How beleivers suffer Satans wrath in the tribulation but are removed before God wrath on the Day of the Lord.

 

 

1. The First 4 Seals match the Beginning of Sorrow Signs in: (Matthew 24:7, Mark 13:8, and Luke 21:10-11)

 

2.  Can't have the Rapture after the Mid Point, it violates dozens of Scriptures and The Doctrine of Imminence....

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

 

Anyone with a cursory knowledge of Scripture, especially Daniel and Revelation, and who are still here viewing the Abomination of Desolation can pull out their Calendars and set their watches for the Second Coming of Christ.  This also points to a Pre-70th week of Daniel Rapture of "The Church"; which confirms....

 

(Revelation 3:10) " Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

 

Keep: "ek"......Out of, Away from.

 

3.  Define the "Day of The Lord"?  And Scripture Support for the "Immediately" precedes The Rapture.

 

4.  You have to differentiate Believers:  (The Church, Tribulation Saints, 144,000, Jewish Believing Remnant)

 

Are you saying others besides "The Church" are Raptured?  If so, Provide Scripture Support.

 

List the "wraths" from satan?  And who "Specifically" is he Targeting?

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Thanks for taking the time to reply Enoch. My words in blue.

==========================================================================

 

First Welcome :)

 

I have also come across some of Chris White's material.  He has some good work; however, much is off the reservation IMHO....this fits the latter.

 

Also Bear in mind, Matthew is a Jew and his Book is "Heavily Jewish" and his audience is for the Jews.  As opposed to Luke who is a Gentile and speaks to Gentiles. Compare and Contrast Matthew 24 and Luke 21 they are not the same.  Also the Lineage....Matthew starts @ Abraham (The First Jew) where Luke starts with Adam.  Many other nuances in each Book. It was written in greek not hebrew but it does take in a jewish slant, but it is written for everyone, not a singlr group.

 

The First 3 Seals look good.

 

4th seal (killed and hated)

 

Matt24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 

Rev6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

Beasts should be translated as "beast" as in the antichrist.

 

 

This is The Last Horseman (Pale Horse):  This is Famine and Pestilence and such and does not match Matt 24:9 whatsoever. Well it does if you see how the proper use of the greek text matches.

 

And Beasts is exactly what it says "BeastS" (Plural) not THE Beast (Singular) or ac. The greek word is "thērion" and is singular. It has two meanings, a beast, wild animal, Mk. 1:13; Acts 10:12; met. a brute, brutish man, Tit. 1:12 Context determins the correct meaning. Starving beasts of the feild are not exactly going to be killing mankind in every city all over the world. It just doesnt make as much sense. But to help is the word "by" as in "by the beasts of the earth"(translation ive used has the worth with) The greek word is "hypo" translating as (1) gen., under; hence, used to express influence, causation, agency; by, Mt. 1:22 freq.; by the agency of, at the hands of, 2 Cor. 11:24; Heb. 12:3. (2) acc., under, with the idea of motion associated, Mt. 5:15; under, Jn. 1:49; 1 Cor. 10:1; under subjection to, Rom. 6:14; 1 Tim. 6:1; of time, at, about, Acts 5:21 The the word Earth is "ge" translating as, earth, soil, Mt. 13:5; Mk. 4:8, et al.; the ground, surface of the earth, Mt. 10:29; Lk. 6:49, et al.; the land, as opposed to the sea or a lake, Lk. 5:11; Jn. 21:8, 9, 11; the earth, world, Mt. 5:18, 35, et al.; by synec. the inhabitants of the earth, Mt. 5:13; 6:10; 10:34; a land, region, tract, country, territory, Mt. 2:20; 14:34;by way of eminence, the chosen land, Mt. 5:5; 24:30; 27:45; Eph. 6:3; the inhabitants of a region or country, Mt. 10:15; 11:24, et al. So i guess it is entirely a reality that the proper use of the words match Matt24:9 where we to be delivered up to be killed by the antichrist.

 

Be very careful not to add or take away from the WORD.  See Warnings: Rev 22:18-19 (See above)

 

The Four Horseman (The First Four Seals) match up with Matthews signs below.  Note: These are just the beginning of sorrows.

 

(Matthew 24:7-8) " For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.  {8}  All these are the beginning of sorrows."

 

 

5th seal (Death)

 

Matt24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,(Mid point of the 7 years of tribulation) (whoso readeth, let him understand:).......21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

Dan11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. (Dan11 shows how matt24 and Rev 6 tie in timewise)

 

Rev6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

 

 

Rev 6:9 The Martyrs....... have Zero to do with Matthew 24:15 or Dan 11.  Moreover, Daniel Chapter 11 is speaking to the First "Abomination of Desolation" Antiochus IV (Epiphanes). The context of Dan 11 is end of days not antiochus. See here: Dan11: 31...and shall take away the daily sacrifice" This does happen mid term of the 7 years. Dan11:35 ...even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. End of time is the end of the age. Sounds like latter days to me.

 

 

6th seal (Sun moon stars)

 

Matt24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

Or Luke reads as: Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Get ready to be raptured. Told to look up for this as this point which is after the mid point of the trib now)

 

Rev6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?(About to begin the Day of the Lord)

 

 

Please pay attention to detail it's very important.

 

Matthew 24:29 is talking about "After" Tribulation..... Rev Chapter 6 Tribulation is just "Beginning".  The Signs in the Moon are Different between the two passages.... Thats correct, after the tribulation but before great tribulation or the Day of the Lord Its mid term or some time after in the trib. The day of the Lord has a judgement that is 5 months long so we know the Day of the Lord is at the very least that long.

 

(Matthew 24:29) " Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

 

(Revelation 6:12) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"

 

"moon became as blood" is also confirmed in ACTS as happening "Before"...

 

(Acts 2:20) "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:" Exactly as i said :)

 

Also you're "get ready to be raptured" is Non-Sequitur....The Mystery of "The Church" was HID from the beginning of the world and wasn't revealed until it was Paul's Pleasure to reveal it in Eph 3. The doctrine of imminence for the rapture is an incorrect one. For a start, the jews had to return to the land first so for thousands of years it was NOT imminent and he still cannot come until the third temple is biult as he cames after the man of sin is revealed which happens mid point. Thess

 

 

Interlude. Rapture!

 

Matt24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Rev7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

There is no "Rapture" here.  Revelation 7:9 is referring to the Tribulation Saints....They came out of The Great Tribulation.  The Church was Raptured before Chapter 4: Exactly, you and i are going to go through the tibulation and suffer the wrath of satan but removed before the Day of the Lord which is Gods wrath.

 

(See: 2 Thess 2:3-9) in connection with Daniel 9:27.

Seven Lampstands (Identified as The Churches Rev Chapter 1) on the Earth in Chapter 1 In Heaven Chapter 4.

Characteristics of the 24 Elders (The Redeemed, Kings and Priests)  Kings and Priests Identified as The Church Rev Chapter 1 and 1 Peter 2:5

 

The Great Tribulation is God's Wrath, He Promised "The Church" they will not see HIS Wrath....(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," No, the Day of the Lord is Gods wrath, the tribulation is NOT. True we do not suffer Gods wrath, but in the world we shall suffer much tribulation right?

 

See also: Matthew doesn't speak of the Church and verse 30 in Context is....."After" Tribulation of those days....You seem to count the full 7 years as tribulation but it is broken up into tribulation and great tribulation or the Day of the Lord. So yes the church is there during the first half, simply called tribulation.

 

(Matthew 24:29) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" Yep :)

 

 

7th seal (Wrath of God) Remember Rev 6:17 said that the wrath of God is about to be released.

 

Matt24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matt speaks of the Son of Man coming, we have seen this happens just as the Day of the Lord starts. Rev 8 shows the first Day of the day of the Lord.)

 

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

 

 

I don't see a Specific Connection between these 2 Passages.

 

Matthew 24:37 is much deeper (See Mischief of Genesis 6 and connection with the Days of Noah). Christ is also speaking to the Unbelievers here not watching and juxtaposing with the same condition of Unbelievers @ HIS Second Coming.The conection is that the rapture is going to be quick and sudden and the inbeleivers will see it not untill it is done. It also, and most importantly both passages alude the the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The Rapture happens on the very same day the the Day of the Lord starts. That is the theme of both passages.

 

So, we see how letting scripture interpret scripture we can see the following:

 

1. How the 7 seals match to Matt 24

2. The timing of the rapture. ( Some time after the mid point of the trib)

3. That the Day of the Lord immediatly preceeds the rapture.

4. How beleivers suffer Satans wrath in the tribulation but are removed before God wrath on the Day of the Lord.

 

 

1. The First 4 Seals match the Beginning of Sorrow Signs in: (Matthew 24:7, Mark 13:8, and Luke 21:10-11)

 

2.  Can't have the Rapture after the Mid Point, it violates dozens of Scriptures and The Doctrine of Imminence....Like i said, doctine of imminence is a furphy. Can you provide the scriptures?

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." And this still holds true, i dont know the date, nor can you know the date from anything i have said.

 

Anyone with a cursory knowledge of Scripture, especially Daniel and Revelation, and who are still here viewing the Abomination of Desolation can pull out their Calendars and set their watches for the Second Coming of Christ.  This also points to a Pre-70th week of Daniel Rapture of "The Church"; which confirms....Incorrect, no-where have i set out a way of knowing.

 

(Revelation 3:10) " Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

 

Keep: "ek"......Out of, Away from.

 

3.  Define the "Day of The Lord"?  And Scripture Support for the "Immediately" precedes The Rapture. 2Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

4.  You have to differentiate Believers:  (The Church, Tribulation Saints, 144,000, Jewish Believing Remnant)

 

Are you saying others besides "The Church" are Raptured?  If so, Provide Scripture Support. No

 

List the "wraths" from satan?  And who "Specifically" is he Targeting? He targets those of God. Matt24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. there are so many, but ive no time to post them now.

 

 

Well i hope this cleared up things for you so you can understand my position a little better even if you dont agree with it. Its a good thing to discuss things like this so the body of Christ can learn from one another. Can you do me a favor and watch the video i posted? I know its long but it really does answer all your questions and its makes a clearer picture than i can provide. Then let me know what you think. Thanks buddy. :)

 

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 Can you do me a favor and watch the video i posted? I know its long but it really does answer all your questions and its makes a clearer picture than i can provide. Then let me know what you think. Thanks buddy. :)

 

 

 

Welcome to Worthy. :thumbsup:

 

Please note that all videos must be placed/submitted in the Video forum section so that they maybe approved.

Members are asked not to post videos outside of the video forum on other threads as they will be deleted. 

 

Please also understand that we in ministry are volunteers.

Understanding this will also bring an understanding that if you start a thread that has a long running video,

it may take days for someone to have enough time to dedicate to watching the video in full,

which would mean that it may take days before your video is either accepted or rejected.

 

Nigel. (ncn Chat Servant) 

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 Can you do me a favor and watch the video i posted? I know its long but it really does answer all your questions and its makes a clearer picture than i can provide. Then let me know what you think. Thanks buddy. :)

 

 

 

Welcome to Worthy. :thumbsup:

 

Please note that all videos must be placed/submitted in the Video forum section so that they maybe approved.

Members are asked not to post videos outside of the video forum on other threads as they will be deleted. 

 

Please also understand that we in ministry are volunteers.

Understanding this will also bring an understanding that if you start a thread that has a long running video,

it may take days for someone to have enough time to dedicate to watching the video in full,

which would mean that it may take days before your video is either accepted or rejected.

 

Nigel. (ncn Chat Servant) 

 

 

All I will add is that an 1 1/2 hour video will take days before anyone has the time to review it.  As Nigel stated, we volunteer our time when we can, and there is a lot that we need to do during the time we can give.  Rarely do we have this much time to dedicate to a video.  We find it hard to dedicate a half hour most days.  Nothing against any particular video, just that it may be too long.

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