Post Tribbers - Please explain

[OneLight]

I believe I find the truth through prayer and reading the scriptures. Faith comes from hearing the word, and this is the manner in which I find truth, and have faith in such truths.

 

Could you kindly tell me what you believe Rev 6:15-17 means. Mankind hides in caves before the presence of the Lamb on a day of wrath. You believe this occurs before the second coming. I believe you are supporting a strange doctrine if you believe that there is a day of wrath and appearance of the Lamb before the second coming. If you do have the truth on this, could you kindly communicate it to those following this thread.

Yes, as we do read in Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.", yet the verse does not say that truth comes this way.

As for being told how your theory is wrong, you have been, many times. Unfortunately, you have not been listening, only debating.

 

Point me to the post where you showed me how the events of Rev 6:15-17 come before the second coming. I haven't yet heard your or Enoch2021's explanation of Rev 6:15-17. I prefer to discuss these issues and not debate them but to discuss issues there has to be an exchange of conversation. I have given my version of Rev 6:15-17, still awaiting your version?  If you think it occurs before the second coming, why are is mankind hiding from the face of God, and the wrath of the Lamb?

Sure, though it is in another thread. I provided you with a picture of how the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls flow in scripture. To refresh your memory, here is the link.

[Matt36]

 

 

 

Wow, this thread is pretty hard to follow with all of these broken quotes.

Let me ask one simple question for anyone. Some believe the continents will be reunited. Please explain how and when that is going to happen? Also, where in scripture is that?

Thanks.

Spock

 

By two specific earthquakes; The first being, 6th Seal - every mountain and island was removed from its place (islands are found, but moved)  Secondly, 7th Bowl - Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. (islands are not found).  Zech 9:10b - He will proclaim peace to the nations.  His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.  With all the continents reunited, Jerusalem will be the center of the land masses.  Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

In regards to the Islands not being found i beleive that the earth quake preceeding it will cause tsnami and wipe those islands out. Just my opinion. I find it difficult to beleive that the continents will reconnect, but its only a small issue, not something to fight about.

Bingo! You and I are one on this issue, Matt. I think these tsunamis we have witnessed the past ten years are a preview of bigger things to come which will wipe out all islands.

If I'm living in Hawaii, I might be thinking of moving to Montana. (In honor of my dear brother here.)

 

 

Cool stuff spock' The bible even says there will be Tsnamis and thay happen at the time of the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord in my opinion.

 

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

 

Yeah Hawaii isnt too safe bro, but neither will be the united states in my opinion for other reasons. I live in Australia in Sydney. Im about to move to a remote country/outback area so i can continue to preach and spread the word during the tribulation which i beleive is extremely close, Remember that in Matthew it said,  ^Matt24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: ³³ So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.³⁴ Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Well i beleive the fig tree is Israel is the fig tree as its often decribed as such in other parts of the bible.  So its prophecy saying that when you see Israel returned to the land that same generation shall see the Son of man coming. That generation is now 66 years old. Exciting times bro

[Matt36]

As per Rev 14:6,7 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth; to every nation, tribe, language and people.  He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.  Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

 

v 9 - A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice; "If anyone worships the beast, and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he too will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath", v 12 - This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

And then Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, they did not stop worshiping demons and idols..........

 

So where do you Post Tribbers fit in to all this.  For this is all happening near the onset of the 70th Week, except for Rev 9:20. The Church spreading the gospel is now dispelled by an angel spreading the gospel.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi Montana Marv, in post 56 i set out a detailed overview of what i beleive sets out where the rapture takes place. Its not pre trib but it still takes place before the event you are speaking of. Those events take place during the Day of the Lord and we are not subject to his wrath and so are therefore taken out. but we are subject to satans wrath and we will be there during at least the first half of the tribulation. You never mentioned my post so i thought id mention it to see what you have to say about it.

[OneLight]

I believe I find the truth through prayer and reading the scriptures. Faith comes from hearing the word, and this is the manner in which I find truth, and have faith in such truths.

 

Could you kindly tell me what you believe Rev 6:15-17 means. Mankind hides in caves before the presence of the Lamb on a day of wrath. You believe this occurs before the second coming. I believe you are supporting a strange doctrine if you believe that there is a day of wrath and appearance of the Lamb before the second coming. If you do have the truth on this, could you kindly communicate it to those following this thread.

Yes, as we do read in Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.", yet the verse does not say that truth comes this way.

As for being told how your theory is wrong, you have been, many times. Unfortunately, you have not been listening, only debating.

 

 

I have been deliberately ignoring all the side issues you and Enoch2021 have been introducing, in order to hear what your view is on mankind hiding in caves on a day of wrath, and how this can possibly occur before the second coming.  Until you can explain this, all your other side issues are minor compared to your view that there is a day God's of wrath at the 6th seal and also again at the 7th bowl.

Ignore all you wish, my friend, but keep in mind that not one of us controls the conversation. If I missed a specific request to me about the subject of mankind hiding in caves, I apologize. Keep in mind that I have ministerial duties to preform also.

In the 6th Seal, when what is stated to be stars falling from heaven, men do take cover in caves because it is the only safe place to hide ... underground. Why don't I see this as His Second Coming? Because the rest of His Wrath has not been completed. The 7th Seal ushers in the introduction of the 7 Trumpets, not before, as you seem to be telling us. It is not until the 7th Trumpet blows that we see the 7 Bowl Judgments, not before. To follow your line of thinking, one would have to make scripture look like a pretzel, winding here and there. Sorry, but I will stick to how Revelation is written, not adding to or taking away from, nor will I make it a pretzel.

[Matt36]

 

 

 

I believe I find the truth through prayer and reading the scriptures. Faith comes from hearing the word, and this is the manner in which I find truth, and have faith in such truths.

 

Could you kindly tell me what you believe Rev 6:15-17 means. Mankind hides in caves before the presence of the Lamb on a day of wrath. You believe this occurs before the second coming. I believe you are supporting a strange doctrine if you believe that there is a day of wrath and appearance of the Lamb before the second coming. If you do have the truth on this, could you kindly communicate it to those following this thread.

Yes, as we do read in Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.", yet the verse does not say that truth comes this way.

As for being told how your theory is wrong, you have been, many times. Unfortunately, you have not been listening, only debating.

 

 

 

I have been deliberately ignoring all the side issues you and Enoch2021 have been introducing, in order to hear what your view is on mankind hiding in caves on a day of wrath, and how this can possibly occur before the second coming.  Until you can explain this, all your other side issues are minor compared to your view that there is a day God's of wrath at the 6th seal and also again at the 7th bowl.

 

Ignore all you wish, my friend, but keep in mind that not one of us controls the conversation. If I missed a specific request to me about the subject of mankind hiding in caves, I apologize. Keep in mind that I have ministerial duties to preform also.

In the 6th Seal, when what is stated to be stars falling from heaven, men do take cover in caves because it is the only safe place to hide ... underground. Why don't I see this as His Second Coming? Because the rest of His Wrath has not been completed. The 7th Seal ushers in the introduction of the 7 Trumpets, not before, as you seem to be telling us. It is not until the 7th Trumpet blows that we see the 7 Bowl Judgments, not before. To follow your line of thinking, one would have to make scripture look like a pretzel, winding here and there. Sorry, but I will stick to how Revelation is written, not adding to or taking away from, nor will I make it a pretzel.

Hi Onelight,

I beleieve the context is that the 6th seal is where the SIGN of the Son of Man is shown in the heavens. I think its the sign of the coming rapture as we are told in Luke 21:28 to look up as our salvation draws near when we see these signs. Seal 7 introduces the day of the Lord which is his judgement or wrath upon earth in which we are not appointed to. And so you are correct i beleive, it is not his second coming but rather the sudden imminence of the rapture that unfolds in the interlude chapter, chapter 7

 

Edit: Seal 6 shows that Gods wrath is about to be unleashed. Seal 7 introduces that as the Day of the Lord. But Seal 1-6 are not Gods wrath as the first one clearly states the antichrist is on the loose and so seal 1-6 are satans wrath and from seal 7 onwards is the Day of the Lord, Gods wrath to which we are not appointed. Hope ive made this clear enuf for you to understand.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Matt36

[OneLight]

Hi Onelight,

I beleieve the context is that the 6th seal is where the SIGN of the Son of Man is shown in the heavens. I think its the sign of the coming rapture as we are told in Luke 21:28 to look up as our salvation draws near when we see these signs. Seal 7 introduces the day of the Lord which is his judgement or wrath upon earth in which we are not appointed to. And so you are correct i beleive, it is not his second coming but rather the sudden imminence of the rapture that unfolds in the interlude chapter, chapter 7

 

Edit: Seal 6 shows that Gods wrath is about to be unleashed. Seal 7 introduces that as the Day of the Lord. But Seal 1-6 are not Gods wrath as the first one clearly states the antichrist is on the loose and so seal 1-6 are satans wrath and from seal 7 onwards is the Day of the Lord, Gods wrath to which we are not appointed. Hope ive made this clear enuf for you to understand.

Allow me to ask you a few questions. The Day of the Lord is when He returns, correct? He will not return until His wrath is complete, correct? How is it then, that the first Woe, known as the 5th Trumpet, lasts for 5 months? How is it then, that the math does not add up in your scenario?

Revelation 9:1-6

Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.

The 7th Seal is not the Day of the Lord, but an interlude to the 7 Trumpets, as we can read.

Revelation 8:1-6

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.

So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

[Matt36]

Hi Onelight, my words are in blue.

Hi Onelight,

I beleieve the context is that the 6th seal is where the SIGN of the Son of Man is shown in the heavens. I think its the sign of the coming rapture as we are told in Luke 21:28 to look up as our salvation draws near when we see these signs. Seal 7 introduces the day of the Lord which is his judgement or wrath upon earth in which we are not appointed to. And so you are correct i beleive, it is not his second coming but rather the sudden imminence of the rapture that unfolds in the interlude chapter, chapter 7

 

Edit: Seal 6 shows that Gods wrath is about to be unleashed. Seal 7 introduces that as the Day of the Lord. But Seal 1-6 are not Gods wrath as the first one clearly states the antichrist is on the loose and so seal 1-6 are satans wrath and from seal 7 onwards is the Day of the Lord, Gods wrath to which we are not appointed. Hope ive made this clear enuf for you to understand.

Allow me to ask you a few questions. The Day of the Lord is when He returns, correct? He will not return until His wrath is complete, correct? How is it then, that the first Woe, known as the 5th Trumpet, lasts for 5 months? How is it then, that the math does not add up in your scenario?Thanks for your reply buddy. No he returns at the end of the 7 year tribulation. Yes all his wrath is poured out before he returns. I beleieve the Day of the Lord is when the rapture takes place. I beleieve the repture will happen and that same day the Day of the Lord begins. I beleieve that the rapture take place in rev 7 and between seals 6-7 with 7 being the beginning of the Day of the Lord. As for wrath, seal 6 says that his wrath is about to start and it starts in seal 7. So before seal 7 i beleiev is satans wrath and when the day of the Lord starts its Gods wrath. As we are not appointed to wrath we are raptured out just as it begins on the same day. The Day od the Lord is at least 5 months long as it contains the locust judgement which is that long. But the day of the Lord will begin only after the man of sin is revealed which is after the midpoint of the tribulation. So the day of the Lord begins some time after the midpoint thus meaning it could almost me 3.5 years long. I hope that clears up what im saying because the trumpets happen during the Day of the Lord. The 3.5 years+ before the Day of the Lord is just called tribulation and is satans wrath, not Gods. Feel free to continue to ask me questions.

Revelation 9:1-6

Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. Time context= Day of the Lord

The 7th Seal is not the Day of the Lord, but an interlude to the 7 Trumpets, as we can read.

Revelation 8:1-6

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. Sounds like Matt 24^:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

The silence in heaven i think is there because there is a reality set in that that great and terible Day of the Lord is about to start. the 7 Trumpets are handed to the angels in anticipation of the impending doom that is about to be unleashed on earth. Seal 7 is after the rapture which is in chapter 7. Chapter 7 is an interlude chapter between seals 6 and 7 because in chapter 7 is where the rapture takes place. Take a look at my post number 56 for more clarity.

So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. After seal 7 is complete yes

 

Edited April 20, 2014 by Matt36

[Matt36]

 I hope this chart will help people understand the pre wrath view. Its a good idea to look up the verses quoted. (I used to be pre trib but since ive learned about the pre wrath view the scripture all start to make sense now and flow together nicely, blossom even. Finally the big picture and an easy and clear view of the end times is there. Image thanks to the book, The Sign)

 

Click image to enlarge.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Matt36

[Spock]

For what this is worth, I happen to agree with matts chart seeing the day of The Lord beginning at seal 6. Again, I take the words literally in rev 6:16-17 when it says the day of his wrath has come.

16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usf from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

I believe the definition of the Day of The Lord = God's judgment/condemnation begins.

Because I believe the church has not been appointed to God's wrath, I believe the "main" rapture will occur right before the day of The Lord. (Remember, I believe the rapture of the FAITHFUL church occurs before the unleashing of the seal judgments, which for now, I do not believe are of God, but still unclear about this.) I believe the church will be under great duress up to the rapture because satan through the antichrist will be putting great stress on them. This will not be a pleasant time for the church and they will be overcome (killed for their beliefs), but if they stay faithful, they will be honored in the end.

Thoughts? Applause? Tomatoes?

[Matt36]

For what this is worth, I happen to agree with matts chart seeing the day of The Lord beginning at seal 6. Again, I take the words literally in rev 6:16-17 when it says the day of his wrath has come.

16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usf from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

I believe the definition of the Day of The Lord = God's judgment/condemnation begins.

Because I believe the church has not been appointed to God's wrath, I believe the "main" rapture will occur right before the day of The Lord. (Remember, I believe the rapture of the FAITHFUL church occurs before the unleashing of the seal judgments, which for now, I do not believe are of God, but still unclear about this.) I believe the church will be under great duress up to the rapture because satan through the antichrist will be putting great stress on them. This will not be a pleasant time for the church and they will be overcome (killed for their beliefs), but if they stay faithful, they will be honored in the end.

Thoughts? Applause? Tomatoes?

Good stuff Spock. well if you would like to see how i come to the conclusion that the rapture is on the day the Day of the Lord starts then read Rev 7. Rev 7 is an interlude between seals 6 and 7. 7 being the beginning of the Day of the Lord. You will see the 144 thousand sealed but not raptured. They are set apart to go into the Day of the Lord and in chapter 9:4 we see they are still on earth. But the multitude that suddenly appears in heaven are those who came out of great tribulation, that could even be you and i, yes you and i are more than likely mentioned in the bible, just not by name lol. If you go back to my original post, number 56, you might now better understand what ive written.

 

^{2 Thess2:3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

 

The Thessalonians thought they had missed the rapture and were in the Day of the Lord. Paul showed them that the rapture and the Day of the Lord had not happened because first there had to be a falling away and the man of sin revealed.

 

Thank you for taking the time to listen to me and make a nice comment. God bless you bro.

 

Edit: i personally believe that most of us will not see the rapture. I am of the firm beleif that a large chunk of Gods children will be martyred before hand and it says so in both Matt24 and Rev 6. Facing this reality many i believe will fall away forced to back up their so called faith in the face of death. Stay true, and BE READY for Christ coming guys, dont falter and listen to God.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Matt36