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Montana Marv

Post Tribbers - Please explain

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Its a day of wrath, the Lamb (Jesus) appears to all. This is definitely the second coming, if you do not agree, I don't like the way in which you interpret the bible. You seem to interpret the bible according to your preconceived ideas about the layout of Revelation, rather than according to the actual words that you are reading.

 

After every point this is what you say?? I'm Speechless, Bewildered, Befuddled, Dumbfounded, Perplexed, and Stupefied with this. 

 

This sums it up........ :huh:10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ------------------------------------->

 

 

 

Lol!  I don't mean it badly Enoch, please try to understand this from my point of view, I've clearly refuted your point. You continue to believe the way you do, despite the clarity of the bible contradicting your position. You say the second coming does not occur during the 7 seals because its the 7 seals first, then the 7 trumpets, then the 7 bowls and the second coming.

 

I'm saying that the second coming definitely occurs in Revelation 6 during the 6th seal and quote this verse to support my position:

 

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

All eyes see the Lamb, its a day of wrath. This is so clearly a second coming event, that your denial thereof shows a lack of commitment to literal biblical wording and I find we have little basis for a discussion on this issue. I  am curious how you interpret Rev 6:12-17?

 

 

 

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You continue to believe the way you do, despite the clarity of the bible contradicting your position.

 

 

You have yet to refute the smallest of any of the points....concerning The Rapture or the Second Coming.  To stumble through these topics is one thing but to all of a sudden claim that you've refuted someone based on what you've provided is very troubling.

 

You've been shown your error multiple times by a few members here @ Worthy yet continue unabated down the same path. 

 

My advice, go to The LORD with this in Prayer.

 

Hope you find the TRUTH

 

 

 

I believe I find the truth through prayer and reading the scriptures. Faith comes from hearing the word, and this is the manner in which I find truth, and have faith in such truths.

 

Could you kindly tell me what you believe Rev 6:15-17 means. Mankind hides in caves before the presence of the Lamb on a day of wrath. You believe this occurs before the second coming. I believe you are supporting a strange doctrine if you believe that there is a day of wrath and appearance of the Lamb before the second coming. If you do have the truth on this, could you kindly communicate it to those following this thread.

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I believe I find the truth through prayer and reading the scriptures. Faith comes from hearing the word, and this is the manner in which I find truth, and have faith in such truths.

 

Could you kindly tell me what you believe Rev 6:15-17 means. Mankind hides in caves before the presence of the Lamb on a day of wrath. You believe this occurs before the second coming. I believe you are supporting a strange doctrine if you believe that there is a day of wrath and appearance of the Lamb before the second coming. If you do have the truth on this, could you kindly communicate it to those following this thread.

Yes, as we do read in Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.", yet the verse does not say that truth comes this way.

As for being told how your theory is wrong, you have been, many times. Unfortunately, you have not been listening, only debating.

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It was written in greek not hebrew but it does take in a jewish slant, but it is written for everyone, not a singlr group.

 

Yes I know the Language the NT is written in...and it has nothing to do with my point.  Matthew's "Target Audience" is the Jews.  Just like it was Paul's Mission to focus on the Gentiles and Peter's Mission was to focus on the believing Jew.  Same concept.

 

Well it does if you see how the proper use of the greek text matches.

 

Please show exactly where in Matthew 24:9

 

The greek word is "thērion" and is singular.  Starving beasts of the feild are not exactly going to be killing mankind in every city all over the world.

 

Yes, I know what it is.  It still has nothing to do with the ac and context is King.  This Pale Horse is Pestilence and Famine..... In keeping with that context a good possibility is Bacteria and Viruses.  Who said they were starving?  Who said "in every city all over the World"?......  It says he was given power over the Fourth Part of The Earth:

 

(Revelation 6:8) "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

 

Moreover, How can it be the ac when he's not released from the Bottomless Pit until Chapter 9?  The Pale Horse is the Fourth Seal and the Beast from the Bottomless Pit is post... 5th Trumpet.  Please explain.

 

 

The context of Dan 11 is end of days not antiochus. See here: Dan11: 31...and shall take away the daily sacrifice" This does happen mid term of the 7 years. Dan11:35 ...even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. End of time is the end of the age. Sounds like latter days to me.

 

Yes it is Antiochus IV (Epiphanes) from the entire context of Chapter 11, (Dan 11:1-34).  He also took away the Daily Sacrifice, killed pigs on the Holy Alter, and erected a Statue to Zeus in the Holy of Holy's in 167 BC.  It's a "Type" and Christ referred to it in the Olivet Discourse as a fore-shadowing of a future event...to take place again.  There is some cross-over between the 2 separate events that is difficult to differentiate towards the end of the Chapter.

 

 

Thats correct, after the tribulation but before great tribulation or the Day of the Lord Its mid term or some time after in the trib. The day of the Lord has a judgement that is 5 months long so we know the Day of the Lord is at the very least that long

 

Well this is where there is much confusion.  Many people call the entire 70th Week of Daniel "The Tribulation".....That's Incorrect.  Christ Labels the last 3 1/2 years  beginning with the Abomination of Desolation as "The Great Tribulation" in the Olivet Discourse.  Does that automatically mean the first 3 1/2 years are just "plain Tribulation"?  From the text, the first 3 1/2 years were a time of Peace.

 

Please post Scripture Support for the "day of the Lord" as 5 months? 

 

The 5 Months was given to the locusts, from the bottomless pit, to torment men (Except the Sealed 144,000).  This is after the 5th Trumpet has sounded.....You still have 2 more Trumpets (2 more "Woe's" from Revelation 8:13) and 7 Vials left to go.

 

Aren't all the: Seals, Trumpets, and Vials all GOD'S Judgements/Wrath?

 

 

The doctrine of imminence for the rapture is an incorrect one. For a start, the jews had to return to the land first so for thousands of years it was NOT imminent and he still cannot come until the third temple is biult as he cames after the man of sin is revealed which happens mid point.

 

The Jews Re-gathering spoken of in Ezekiel has nothing whatsover to do with The Doctrine of Imminence.  The Doctrine of Imminence is strictly related to the Second Coming. 

 

Please show where it would and does.... since it has already occurred?

 

The Temple has to be standing for the Abomination of Desolation to occur, Obviously.  Who says it has to be in place before the 70th Week of Daniel?  I've heard of plans to erect it and have it standing in less than 6 months.....when the time comes.

 

Even if they erected the Temple tomorrow it still wouldn't impact the Doctrine of Imminence.  It could stand there for hundreds of years without impacting The Doctrine.  The Confirming of the Covenant for 7 years is the Key Event....then and only then could you get your Calendar and Watch out.

 

Follow? 

 

Daniel 9:27 is the Key Prophecy and Basis for The Doctrine of Imminence.

 

 

2.  Can't have the Rapture after the Mid Point, it violates dozens of Scriptures and The Doctrine of Imminence....Like i said, doctine of imminence is a furphy. Can you provide the scriptures?

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." And this still holds true, i dont know the date, nor can you know the date from anything i have said.

 

Anyone with a cursory knowledge of Scripture, especially Daniel and Revelation, and who are still here viewing the Abomination of Desolation can pull out their Calendars and set their watches for the Second Coming of Christ.  This also points to a Pre-70th week of Daniel Rapture of "The Church"; which confirms....Incorrect, no-where have i set out a way of knowing.

 

IMMINENT or Doctrine of Imminence: The Next Expectation; No Proceeding Event.

 

There is no proceeding event...and believers are taught to conduct their lives in a moment to moment expectancy of Our Coming KING; its all through the NT (Phil 3:20; Titus 2:13; Heb 9:28; 1 Thess 1:10; 4:18, 5:6, Rev 22:20).  And here....

 

The Doctrine of Imminence is rather intuitive based on (Just a few).......

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

(2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

(**And many Others)

 

Now comparing Scripture with Scripture:  Time, Times, and a Dividing of Time: (Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14); 1260 Days: (Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6, Rev 12:14); 42 Months: Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5....

These all speak to the time from the Abomination of Desolation to Christ's Return.  Here's the problem....anyone even with a cursory knowledge of Scripture (Especially Dan and Rev) one could pretty much Mark their Calendars and Set their Watches from the Abomination of Desolation......3 1/2 years in Anticipation of Christ.  Which then would nullify (and dozens more).....

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."  All who've read and understood those passages Would Know.

Basically all positions (Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath-Post Trib) besides Pre-Trib, deny the Doctrine of Imminence.

 

 

There is no "Rapture" here.  Revelation 7:9 is referring to the Tribulation Saints....They came out of The Great Tribulation.  The Church was Raptured before Chapter 4: Exactly, you and i are going to go through the tibulation and suffer the wrath of satan but removed before the Day of the Lord which is Gods wrath.

 

Exactly, eh?

 

"The Church" and The "Tribulation Saints" are 2 different Groups.

 

Above you said "the day of the Lord" is 5 months or the the duration of the locusts from the Bottomless Pit.  How can we be removed before the "day of the Lord" and still suffer your 5 months proposition?

 

Also, are you saying Rev Chapter 9 occurs before Rev Chapter 4?

 

Again, List "satan's wraths" and who is the Target?

 

 

" No, the Day of the Lord is Gods wrath, the tribulation is NOT. True we do not suffer Gods wrath, but in the world we shall suffer much tribulation right?

 

First don't Equivocate (Fallacy) Persecution/Sufferings/Tribulation (Little "t") with "The Great Tribulation".  The former is sourced from the World the latter is sourced by GOD!  Big Difference.

 

GOD's Wrath begins with the Breaking of Seals in Chapter 6....

 

(Revelation 6:16-17) "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:  {17} For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

 

You seem to count the full 7 years as tribulation but it is broken up into tribulation and great tribulation or the Day of the Lord. So yes the church is there during the first half, simply called tribulation.

 

No, exactly the opposite.  Please show the first half or 3 1/2 years as "Tribulation" from Scripture?

 

The conection is that the rapture is going to be quick and sudden and the inbeleivers will see it not untill it is done. It also, and most importantly both passages alude the the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The Rapture happens on the very same day the the Day of the Lord starts. That is the theme of both passages.

 

The Rapture and the Second Coming are two separate events.  And according to your "day of the Lord" above, the "five months" is Non-Sequitur.

 

And more importantly, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the "day of vengeance" here....

 

(Jeremiah 46:10) "For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates."

 

Which then points to....

 

(Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.  {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.  {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

 

Which most Specifically points to....

 

(Revelation 19:13-16) "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

This :rolleyes: :rolleyes: is the "day of the LORD" The Second Coming.  This is just after the Marriage Supper in Heaven with HIS Wife "The Church" and she's following clothed in "fine linen, white and clean".  How can she follow HIM from Heaven if she's not Raptured before this?

 

 

2Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

First: "the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ" and "day of Christ" are not the same.  Let me explain....

 

In Verse 1: "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," --------------------------------->The Rapture

Verse 2: "the day of Christ" is at hand" -------------------------------------------------> Second Coming

See the difference?

GOD'S WORD is extremely Precise.... (Matthew 5:18) " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

If these two ( "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "the day of Christ") were the same, then why didn't Paul in the very next Verse, just say......

"that day" of Christ...... because he just referenced it and is a direct reference to the Antecedent (coming of our Lord Jesus Christ).

But that's not what he said.....

What did he say....that "the" day of Christ.

The "The" is a game changer in this specific instance and differentiates ( coming of our Lord Jesus Christ from the day of Christ)

 

And, you forgot the rest of the passage.......The Details:

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:3-9) "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

 

The "he" is the Holy Spirit....

 

For him ("That Wicked") to be revealed, the "RESTRAINER" must be removed!! The "Restrainer" is The Holy Spirit and was given to the Body of Christ ("The Church") after Christ left.

 

(John 14:16) " And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

 

(John 14:26) " But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

 

(John 16:7) " Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

 

Jesus had to Leave for the "Comforter to Come".  Who did he give it to......"The Church", FOREVER!  It appears from John, that they (Jesus and the Comforter) can't be on the Earth @ the same time.......

 

The obvious Implication with this is....When Christ Physically Returns, the Holy Spirit must be departed.  Hence...."The Church" is not on the Earth.

 

There is absolutely NO WAY the Comforter/Restrainer......Leaves The Church, HE'S the Embodiment of it !

 

 

So since that is the case and the ac has to be "revealed" to Confirm the Covenant, here....

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

The Church is removed before the 70th Week of Daniel.

 

Savvy?

 

He targets those of God. Matt24:9

 

The Main Goal of the Great Tribulation is for The Jewish Remnant to Petition the Lord to Return....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

satans goal is to Kill them before they can do it.

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Could you kindly tell me what you believe Rev 6:15-17 means.

 

Sure no problem, See Below

 

 

Mankind hides in caves before the presence of the Lamb on a day of wrath. You believe this occurs before the second coming.

 

What in the World is this? 

 

I have never made such a nonsensical claim.  In fact, this is your position.....

 

"I'm saying that the second coming definitely occurs in Revelation 6 during the 6th seal...."   Here...

 

and here:  

 

I do believe that all the Seals/Trumpets/Vials occur Prior to the Second Coming in Rev 19.  Which I've been saying for over 50 posts and 3 weeks

 

 

The "Presence" of the Lamb??  The "Presence" is something you just added.  Can you show me where in these passages where Christ is Present on the Earth??....

 

(Revelation 6:15-17) "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;  {16} And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:  {17} For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

It say's Hide us from the "face of Him" that sitteth on the Throne.  So the Father is still on the Throne in Heaven.  "and from the wrath of the Lamb"....where does it say Christ is on the Earth?

 

Moreover, this is in response to the 6th Seal being opened and these events.....

 

(Revelation 6:12-14) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;  {13} And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  {14} And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

 

 

Furthermore the 7th Seal is yet to be open here.....you still have the 7th Seal, 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials (Filled with GOD'S WRATH)... Who's GOD'S Wrath being poured out on here? ....

 

(Revelation 15:7) "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever."

 

According to your Position, Christ's Second Coming occurs in-between the 6th and 7th Seal  :huh:

 

And, To name just a few......

 

The 144,000 haven't been Sealed Yet.  The Tribulation Saints haven't been killed yet.  The ac/beast and the locusts aren't released from the Bottomless Pit until after the Fifth Trumpet in Chapter 9.  The Grapes and Vine are yet to be tossed into the Great Winepress. The 2 Witnesses have yet to make an appearance.  Babylon has even yet to be mentioned. Not to mention everything that happens to: the sea, the earth, sun/moon.  The Great River Euphrates drying up.  The Marriage Supper occurs in Heaven with the Church and Christ with the armies that follow HIM (Including HIS wife) in Chapter 19.

 

I could have went on here for quite some time.... hopefully you get the picture.

 

 

I believe you are supporting a strange doctrine if you believe that there is a day of wrath and appearance of the Lamb before the second coming.

 

No, I surely don't. It's you looking @ yourself in the mirror then projecting.

 

The Wrath of GOD are the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials (It's called the Great Tribulation).......Culminating in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in Rev 19:

 

(Revelation 19:11-16) "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

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My words in blue

 

 

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It was written in greek not hebrew but it does take in a jewish slant, but it is written for everyone, not a singlr group.

 

Yes I know the Language the NT is written in...and it has nothing to do with my point.  Matthew's "Target Audience" is the Jews.  Just like it was Paul's Mission to focus on the Gentiles and Peter's Mission was to focus on the believing Jew.  Same concept. Target audience is everyone Enoch. And its a mute point anyway.

 

Well it does if you see how the proper use of the greek text matches.

 

Please show exactly where in Matthew 24:9 I did show you Enoch. Look again.

 

The greek word is "thērion" and is singular.  Starving beasts of the feild are not exactly going to be killing mankind in every city all over the world.

 

Yes, I know what it is.  It still has nothing to do with the ac and context is King.  This Pale Horse is Pestilence and Famine..... In keeping with that context a good possibility is Bacteria and Viruses.  Who said they were starving?  Who said "in every city all over the World"?......  It says he was given power over the Fourth Part of The Earth:

 

(Revelation 6:8) "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." Beast as in the AC, i already showed you that the greek translates as a dominion of a man. You cannot bring in private interpretation of scripture, you must use the original words, not english translation words to find the real meaning. You must allow scripture to interprete scripture.

 

Moreover, How can it be the ac when he's not released from the Bottomless Pit until Chapter 9?  The Pale Horse is the Fourth Seal and the Beast from the Bottomless Pit is post... 5th Trumpet.  Please explain. Are you saying that the antichrist comes from the bottomless pit? Daneil clearly states he is a man and so does revelation.

 

 

The context of Dan 11 is end of days not antiochus. See here: Dan11: 31...and shall take away the daily sacrifice" This does happen mid term of the 7 years. Dan11:35 ...even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. End of time is the end of the age. Sounds like latter days to me.

 

Yes it is Antiochus IV (Epiphanes) from the entire context of Chapter 11, (Dan 11:1-34).  He also took away the Daily Sacrifice, killed pigs on the Holy Alter, and erected a Statue to Zeus in the Holy of Holy's in 167 BC.  It's a "Type" and Christ referred to it in the Olivet Discourse as a fore-shadowing of a future event...to take place again.  There is some cross-over between the 2 separate events that is difficult to differentiate towards the end of the Chapter. Clearly you are  ignoring the scriptures Enoch. Please explain how the TIME OF THE END isnt the latter days. Time of the end always refers to the end of days in scripture, clearly you are not allowing scripture to interpret scripture.

 

 

Thats correct, after the tribulation but before great tribulation or the Day of the Lord Its mid term or some time after in the trib. The day of the Lord has a judgement that is 5 months long so we know the Day of the Lord is at the very least that long

 

Well this is where there is much confusion.  Many people call the entire 70th Week of Daniel "The Tribulation".....That's Incorrect.  Christ Labels the last 3 1/2 years  beginning with the Abomination of Desolation as "The Great Tribulation" in the Olivet Discourse.  Does that automatically mean the first 3 1/2 years are just "plain Tribulation"?  From the text, the first 3 1/2 years were a time of Peace. No, the 70th week is the 7 years in entirety. The Day of the Lord starts sometime after the midpoint.

 

Please post Scripture Support for the "day of the Lord" as 5 months? I said its al least five months. I was saying its not a literal 24 hrs.

 

The 5 Months was given to the locusts, from the bottomless pit, to torment men (Except the Sealed 144,000).  This is after the 5th Trumpet has sounded.....You still have 2 more Trumpets (2 more "Woe's" from Revelation 8:13) and 7 Vials left to go. As i said above

 

Aren't all the: Seals, Trumpets, and Vials all GOD'S Judgements/Wrath? Not upon his children

 

 

The doctrine of imminence for the rapture is an incorrect one. For a start, the jews had to return to the land first so for thousands of years it was NOT imminent and he still cannot come until the third temple is biult as he cames after the man of sin is revealed which happens mid point.

 

The Jews Re-gathering spoken of in Ezekiel has nothing whatsover to do with The Doctrine of Imminence.  The Doctrine of Imminence is strictly related to the Second Coming. Ezekiel shows at cannot be imminent untill ezikiels prphecy is fullfilled. Can you explain how Christ could return or the rapture could happen if Israel didnt exist??? You cant, so untill 1948 it was IMMPOSSIBLE for Christ to return and this the doctine of imminence is not of God. So your saying that the second comming of Christ is imminent even tho the rapture and the 7 years of tribulation have not happened? massive holes in your theologu bro!

 

Please show where it would and does.... since it has already occurred? Im not following you here sorry.

 

The Temple has to be standing for the Abomination of Desolation to occur, Obviously.  Who says it has to be in place before the 70th Week of Daniel?  I've heard of plans to erect it and have it standing in less than 6 months.....when the time comes. Yeah true, it can be erected in 6 months hence Christ cannot come for at least 6 months right hence the doctrine of imminence is not correct as 6 months is NOT imminent and who says they will start biulding it today, could be a year off or more.

 

Even if they erected the Temple tomorrow it still wouldn't impact the Doctrine of Imminence.  It could stand there for hundreds of years without impacting The Doctrine.  The Confirming of the Covenant for 7 years is the Key Event....then and only then could you get your Calendar and Watch out. No because he cannot come until there first be a falling away and that man of sin be revealed and neither has happened  yet, so its not imminent.

 

Follow? 

 

Daniel 9:27 is the Key Prophecy and Basis for The Doctrine of Imminence.

 

 

2.  Can't have the Rapture after the Mid Point, it violates dozens of Scriptures and The Doctrine of Imminence....Like i said, doctine of imminence is a furphy. Can you provide the scriptures?

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." And this still holds true, i dont know the date, nor can you know the date from anything i have said.

 

Anyone with a cursory knowledge of Scripture, especially Daniel and Revelation, and who are still here viewing the Abomination of Desolation can pull out their Calendars and set their watches for the Second Coming of Christ.  This also points to a Pre-70th week of Daniel Rapture of "The Church"; which confirms....Incorrect, no-where have i set out a way of knowing.

 

IMMINENT or Doctrine of Imminence: The Next Expectation; No Proceeding Event.

 

There is no proceeding event...and believers are taught to conduct their lives in a moment to moment expectancy of Our Coming KING; its all through the NT (Phil 3:20; Titus 2:13; Heb 9:28; 1 Thess 1:10; 4:18, 5:6, Rev 22:20).  And here....

 

The Doctrine of Imminence is rather intuitive based on (Just a few).......

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." True how does this get in the way of any scripture ive shown?

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." I cant see imminence here, just to be ready.

(2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."Day of the Lord is not the second comming but the divin judgement, you yourself said its not a 24 hr period but is at least longer than 5 months. So you misquote scripture. However the rapture will happen the same day the day of the Lord starts. Which is Rev chapter 8 after the first 6 seals and they havnt happened yet, So again, it is not imminent.

(**And many Others)

 

Now comparing Scripture with Scripture:  Time, Times, and a Dividing of Time: (Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14); 1260 Days: (Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6, Rev 12:14); 42 Months: Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5....

These all speak to the time from the Abomination of Desolation to Christ's Return.  Here's the problem....anyone even with a cursory knowledge of Scripture (Especially Dan and Rev) one could pretty much Mark their Calendars and Set their Watches from the Abomination of Desolation......3 1/2 years in Anticipation of Christ.  Which then would nullify (and dozens more).....You just backed up everything ive said. Except timing. So you agree that Christ can only return when the abomination of desolation is present, he is not present is he. So Christs return is not imminent. It also shows that he cannot come till the mid point when the abomination of desolation is revealed. As for timing, knowere have i said its the mid point. i said its after the mid point. So, no you cant work out the day or the time.

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."  All who've read and understood those passages Would Know. Yep agreed

Basically all positions (Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath-Post Trib) besides Pre-Trib, deny the Doctrine of Imminence. For goor reason, its of Satan, to make you think you will not go into tribulation, to make you unprepared, this is one reason i beleive there will ba a great falling away, because of the ore trib rapture and doctrine of imminece doctrines cause those who beleived in it to junk their faith and turn away.

 

 

There is no "Rapture" here.  Revelation 7:9 is referring to the Tribulation Saints....They came out of The Great Tribulation.  The Church was Raptured before Chapter 4: Exactly, you and i are going to go through the tibulation and suffer the wrath of satan but removed before the Day of the Lord which is Gods wrath.

 

Exactly, eh?

 

"The Church" and The "Tribulation Saints" are 2 different Groups. No, thay are not. . The deciples asked when shall the END OF THE AGE BE? The church age, and he clearly stated it ends after the tribulation ends. Therfore all saints are the church untill we enter the millenial age.

 

Above you said "the day of the Lord" is 5 months or the the duration of the locusts from the Bottomless Pit.  How can we be removed before the "day of the Lord" and still suffer your 5 months proposition? I said its at least that long more than likely it will be almost 3.5 years long but not quite. There will be those who are saved during the time of the Day of the Lord, such as many jews for a start and many in other nations that survive to go into the new mellenia.

 

Also, are you saying Rev Chapter 9 occurs before Rev Chapter 4? No after.

 

Again, List "satan's wraths" and who is the Target? You and me

 

 

" No, the Day of the Lord is Gods wrath, the tribulation is NOT. True we do not suffer Gods wrath, but in the world we shall suffer much tribulation right?

 

First don't Equivocate (Fallacy) Persecution/Sufferings/Tribulation (Little "t") with "The Great Tribulation".  The former is sourced from the World the latter is sourced by GOD!  Big Difference. Not really tribualtion is tribulation. Why is it that millions of Christians have been martyred of the millenias including thousands at this very moment but you are too precious to have the same path? I look at it this way, i will be more than willing to suffer for Christ and to go through the fire and come out the other side.

 

GOD's Wrath begins with the Breaking of Seals in Chapter 6....No, Seal 6. And it says so, it says that the day of his wrath is come. The time of the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord

 

(Revelation 6:16-17) "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:  {17} For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"There

 

 

You seem to count the full 7 years as tribulation but it is broken up into tribulation and great tribulation or the Day of the Lord. So yes the church is there during the first half, simply called tribulation.

 

No, exactly the opposite.  Please show the first half or 3 1/2 years as "Tribulation" from Scripture? I already did

 

The conection is that the rapture is going to be quick and sudden and the inbeleivers will see it not untill it is done. It also, and most importantly both passages alude the the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The Rapture happens on the very same day the the Day of the Lord starts. That is the theme of both passages.

 

The Rapture and the Second Coming are two separate events.  And according to your "day of the Lord" above, the "five months" is Non-Sequitur. Thats correct

 

And more importantly, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the "day of vengeance" here....Yep

 

(Jeremiah 46:10) "For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates."

 

Which then points to....

 

(Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.  {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.  {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

 

Which most Specifically points to....

 

(Revelation 19:13-16) "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." No arguement here

 

This :rolleyes: :rolleyes: is the "day of the LORD" The Second Coming.  This is just after the Marriage Supper in Heaven with HIS Wife "The Church" and she's following clothed in "fine linen, white and clean".  How can she follow HIM from Heaven if she's not Raptured before this?She is raptured before this, i really dont think you follow me correctly.

 

 

2Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

First: "the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ" and "day of Christ" are not the same.  Let me explain....

 

In Verse 1: "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," --------------------------------->The Rapture Correct

Verse 2: "the day of Christ" is at hand" -------------------------------------------------> Second Coming No, the Day of Christ is the Day of the Lord jesus Christ. The thessalonians if you read the book correctly beleived they had missed the rapture and were currently in the Day of the Lord. Hence the reason Paul said to "remember i told you" And went on to tell them that the rapture and the Day of the Lord hasnt yet come as the falling away and the man of sin had not yet been revealed!!!

See the difference?No

GOD'S WORD is extremely Precise.... (Matthew 5:18) " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

If these two ( "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "the day of Christ") were the same, then why didn't Paul in the very next Verse, just say......

"that day" of Christ...... because he just referenced it and is a direct reference to the Antecedent (coming of our Lord Jesus Christ).As above

But that's not what he said.....

What did he say....that "the" day of Christ.

The "The" is a game changer in this specific instance and differentiates ( coming of our Lord Jesus Christ from the day of Christ)

 

And, you forgot the rest of the passage.......The Details:As above

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:3-9) "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"Thanks, so the day of the Lord and the rapture cannot come till the man of sin be revealed. Just as i said right.

 

The "he" is the Holy Spirit....

 

For him ("That Wicked") to be revealed, the "RESTRAINER" must be removed!! The "Restrainer" is The Holy Spirit and was given to the Body of Christ ("The Church") after Christ left. The restrainer is Michael

 

(John 14:16) " And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"Exactly, so he wont be removed.

 

(John 14:26) " But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."Yes including the tribulation saints and those in the Day of the Lord.

 

(John 16:7) " Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

 

Jesus had to Leave for the "Comforter to Come".  Who did he give it to......"The Church", FOREVER!  It appears from John, that they (Jesus and the Comforter) can't be on the Earth @ the same time.......Church age ends when the millenial raign starts. Daniels 7th week is in the church age

 

The obvious Implication with this is....When Christ Physically Returns, the Holy Spirit must be departed.  Hence...."The Church" is not on the Earth. Christ returns at the end of the 7 years so yes he will not be taken out.

 

There is absolutely NO WAY the Comforter/Restrainer......Leaves The Church, HE'S the Embodiment of it ! Absolutley

 

 

So since that is the case and the ac has to be "revealed" to Confirm the Covenant, here....

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

The Church is removed before the 70th Week of Daniel. Where does it say that?? Jesus said the end of the age will be after the antichrist is revealed in Matt24

 

Savvy?

 

He targets those of God. Matt24:9

 

The Main Goal of the Great Tribulation is for The Jewish Remnant to Petition the Lord to Return....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

satans goal is to Kill them before they can do it.

Please watch the video i linked as i dont think you have a full grasp of what im saying. It doesnt seem very clear to you. Please go to my utube page on utube and type in AHL.AHL  and you will get my channel. Then look for Chris whites video in my video section. Id rather you watch it before you comment back so that you have a clearer understanding of my point of view. I understand yours completely as for most of my Christian life ive also been a pre tribber.  Can you please get back to me after watching the video, id like to see what scriptures you can use to counter it in the name of truth. Thanks buddy. Matt :)

Edited by Matt36

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Wow, this thread is pretty hard to follow with all of these broken quotes.

Let me ask one simple question for anyone. Some believe the continents will be reunited. Please explain how and when that is going to happen? Also, where in scripture is that?

Thanks.

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Wow, this thread is pretty hard to follow with all of these broken quotes.

Let me ask one simple question for anyone. Some believe the continents will be reunited. Please explain how and when that is going to happen? Also, where in scripture is that?

Thanks.

Spock

 

By two specific earthquakes; The first being, 6th Seal - every mountain and island was removed from its place (islands are found, but moved)  Secondly, 7th Bowl - Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. (islands are not found).  Zech 9:10b - He will proclaim peace to the nations.  His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.  With all the continents reunited, Jerusalem will be the center of the land masses.  Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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==============================================================

 

 

Just a couple.  It's one thing to struggle @ times with Scripture....it's quite another to give personal advice authoritatively based on contrived opinions.

 

 

Target audience is everyone Enoch. And its a mute point anyway.

 

Why because you said so?  Or that it's written in Greek?  And, how can the point be Silent?  Mute = Silent. 

 

If you were going for "moot" here, it's often practice to provide rationale...... otherwise, it's just Baseless Labeling.

 

Beast as in the AC, i already showed you that the greek translates as a dominion of a man. You cannot bring in private interpretation of scripture, you must use the original words, not english translation words to find the real meaning. You must allow scripture to interprete scripture.

 

:huh:

 

Strong's 2342   //  yhrion  //  therion   //  thay-ree'-on  //

 

1) an animal

2) a wild animal, wild beast, beast

3) metaph. a brutal, bestial man, savage, ferocious

 

(Revelation 14:11) "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

 

(Revelation 13:4) "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

 

(Revelation 6:8) "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

 

(Revelation 11:7) "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

 

(Revelation 13:18) "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

 

All the same word in the Greek.  Context is King.

 

 

Are you saying that the antichrist comes from the bottomless pit? Daneil clearly states he is a man and so does revelation.

 

What Bible are you reading?  See Response and Scriptures above....with Special Attention to Rev 11:7, 13:18, 13:4.  The ac is a Hybrid (Beast and man) and so are the 10 Kings....Including the Final 7, 8 (little horn) counting the ac.... See Dan 2:43.

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Wow, this thread is pretty hard to follow with all of these broken quotes.

Let me ask one simple question for anyone. Some believe the continents will be reunited. Please explain how and when that is going to happen? Also, where in scripture is that?

Thanks.

Spock

 

By two specific earthquakes; The first being, 6th Seal - every mountain and island was removed from its place (islands are found, but moved)  Secondly, 7th Bowl - Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. (islands are not found).  Zech 9:10b - He will proclaim peace to the nations.  His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.  With all the continents reunited, Jerusalem will be the center of the land masses.  Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Wow, you see or infer all that in those verses. Interesting. (Spock scratching his head shrugging his shoulders bewildered.)

I guess you guys see all the land masses as they are now just mystically moving across the ocean to reunite as Pangea. That sounds intriguing, but you don't see the problems that can occur with that happening so fast?

It looks like some of you have an even greater imagination than me, and yet I'm Spock! Lol

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Wow, this thread is pretty hard to follow with all of these broken quotes.

Let me ask one simple question for anyone. Some believe the continents will be reunited. Please explain how and when that is going to happen? Also, where in scripture is that?

Thanks.

Spock

 

By two specific earthquakes; The first being, 6th Seal - every mountain and island was removed from its place (islands are found, but moved)  Secondly, 7th Bowl - Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. (islands are not found).  Zech 9:10b - He will proclaim peace to the nations.  His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.  With all the continents reunited, Jerusalem will be the center of the land masses.  Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

In regards to the Islands not being found i beleive that the earth quake preceeding it will cause tsnami and wipe those islands out. Just my opinion. I find it difficult to beleive that the continents will reconnect, but its only a small issue, not something to fight about. :)

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